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OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:21 am
by MikeIsGood
Sorry if you guys get sick of me harping on brain injuries in sports (football). This is just another very sad case possibly related to chronic traumatic encephalopathy. A lot of current players have stepped up and said that they would donate their brain to scientific research after their passing. Duerson, apparently, sent out text messages to family members before his suicide asking them to lend his brain to doctors to examine for CTE.

It's very sad, but I remain hopeful that something positive will come of this research someday. The concussions, multiple and potentially extremely harmful concussions, and other harmful head-related injuries in sports have rightfully been gaining increased press in recent years. Many of the effects are rather immediate, but the long-term effects are still often in the background.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/n ... id=6141129

Re: OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:47 pm
by Bernman
The only real concrete way to test these guys was posthumously, so it was swept under the carpet by Tagliabue and co. in order to keep profiting and avoiding disability claims, until the independent organization led by Nowinski and Cantu formed to do the testing. God bless them for doing it. Goodell has also stepped up. Between the way he's handled disciplinary issues and this one, he's shown he has much more of a conscience than the previous commissioner.

At the very least the NFL owes the participants of the game information in order to be able to make an informed choice (this isn't a communist state). Then if they want to risk going through the living hell that many of these guys do because the money, fame, and satisfaction are worthwhile; so be it.

But if the NFL can make the game reasonably safe while still being reasonably entertaining, they should do it. The advancements in protection and punishments for head shots are a start. Eventually they may get to the point where the entertainment value is discernibly lower and players can't earn the financial security that they once could. That's a balance the NFL is going to need to find with trial and error and everybody involved will have to make the sacrifice for the good of themselves and others.

Re: OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:39 pm
by Reddeye

Re: OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:01 pm
by Ayt
This is all quite sad.

From the King article,
As she gathered up the slides of the damaged brain tissues of NFL players, McKee considered a question: What would she say if she could speak to Patriots safety Brandon Meriweather (fined $50,000 for a helmet hit on Ravens tight end Todd Heap) or Steelers linebacker James Harrison (fined $75,000 for his second offense, a shot on Browns wide receiver Mohamed Massaquoi)?

"I wouldn't say anything," she answered. "I'd just show them these slides."


I wonder if these players would care. I wonder what the response would be if all NFL teams had someone come in during the preseason and show the type of damage that can happen and explain the effects of the damage.

Re: OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:05 am
by MikeIsGood
Bernman wrote:The only real concrete way to test these guys was posthumously, so it was swept under the carpet by Tagliabue and co. in order to keep profiting and avoiding disability claims, until the independent organization led by Nowinski and Cantu formed to do the testing. God bless them for doing it. Goodell has also stepped up. Between the way he's handled disciplinary issues and this one, he's shown he has much more of a conscience than the previous commissioner.


Not sure whether your post was in response to mine or not - and truthfully, it really doesn't matter because I should make this point regardless.

I most notably speak of the general public and the media. Tagliabue does a much better job in this regard than his predecessor. I think there are still definite means of taking safety that have not been done. That does not come without sacrifice, as he is quite obviously in a position of needing to balance entertainment with profit as you mention (one I am not in), but the measures are still there regardless. With that said, I applaud the efforts he has made. The issue comes from the players, organizations, media, fans, etc. that DO sweep it under the rug. This gets talked about most prominently in articles featured on the back page, so to speak, on TV shows that air while everyone is working, by players who criticize concussed players then "apologize," etc.

Research is what is needed, and is why I am so happy that players are stepping up to ensure that the research can be done as time goes on, but this also wasn't discovered yesterday. Not a lot is known, but yet a lot is, and it is an incredibly important issue that did not always - and does not still - have the proper attention of the relevant parties (the important party is virtually everyone).

This, admittedly, is a hot-button issue for me and is why I always talk about it. I'm glad this thread got even one response because I was not expecting much.

Re: OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:17 am
by Ayt
I'm personally fascinated by neuroscience, so I think this is interesting just because of that. But beyond my morbid scientific curiosity, I think this issue has interesting sociological aspects as well. The first issue for me is, why was playing through concussions considered a point of pride? How is that changing now? The NFL is the most popular sport in the most powerful country in the world. What does that say about humanity in general right now, if anything? We hoist sports figures up onto pedestals while they play, but do we really care if they suffer traumatic brain damage that causes them to die early? Why is this dangerous sport idolized?

Those are just a few thoughts that pop into my head. The questions here really are numerous.

Re: OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:47 am
by Bernman
MikeIsGood wrote:Not sure whether your post was in response to mine or not - and truthfully, it really doesn't matter because I should make this point regardless.

I most notably speak of the general public and the media. Tagliabue does a much better job in this regard than his predecessor. I think there are still definite means of taking safety that have not been done. That does not come without sacrifice, as he is quite obviously in a position of needing to balance entertainment with profit as you mention (one I am not in), but the measures are still there regardless. With that said, I applaud the efforts he has made. The issue comes from the players, organizations, media, fans, etc. that DO sweep it under the rug. This gets talked about most prominently in articles featured on the back page, so to speak, on TV shows that air while everyone is working, by players who criticize concussed players then "apologize," etc.

Research is what is needed, and is why I am so happy that players are stepping up to ensure that the research can be done as time goes on, but this also wasn't discovered yesterday. Not a lot is known, but yet a lot is, and it is an incredibly important issue that did not always - and does not still - have the proper attention of the relevant parties (the important party is virtually everyone).

This, admittedly, is a hot-button issue for me and is why I always talk about it. I'm glad this thread got even one response because I was not expecting much.


It was a general remark about the situation, not necessarily in response to anything that you said.

By Tagliabue I assume you meant Goodell.

Yes, the media does need to do a better job of informing the public as well so parents and prospective players can make informed decisions, but many have a stake in the claim of sweeping it under the carpet as well.

I was listening to Boers and Bernstein a week or two ago on Chicago sports Radio, scavenging for discussion about the Packers' Super Bowl triumph, and the issue came up about the enlightenment in regards to head injuries and precautions taken in response. It seemed like Bernstein was concerned that the truth was coming out and that would reduce the ferocity of collisions in the game and in turn enjoyment level for him. He was conscious enough to make the comparison in the relationship of football fans to players as that of spectators to Roman Gladiators, and football as the boxing of the future where it's one of the last resorts for a person to remove themselves from their dire socioeconomic situation; but still acted as if things should stay the same. Many people just want their opiate and means of profiting, regardless who else gets hurt in the way.

I'll continue to watch it as long as they put the product out there, because I don't have the power to change anything, but strongly prefer that it does, no matter what the risk to the game (I probably wouldn't lose much enjoyment because I don't watch for violence, really), and I hope that increased testing and full disclosure is a demand of the player's union this offseason, and they'll also accept increased fines for egregious violations to the no head striking rule.

Re: OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:06 am
by MikeIsGood
Bernman wrote:It was a general remark about the situation, not necessarily in response to anything that you said.


I figured. Just covering all bases.

By Tagliabue I assume you meant Goodell.


Yes. Typo - Tagliabue was on my mind.

Yes, the media does need to do a better job of informing the public as well so parents and prospective players can make informed decisions, but many have a stake in the claim of sweeping it under the carpet as well.


An unfortunate truth, but a truth nonetheless. I understand the tough position they're in; however, I wish it were an ethical battle that they could surpass.

Great analogy to gladiators.

Ayt wrote:I'm personally fascinated by neuroscience, so I think this is interesting just because of that. But beyond my morbid scientific curiosity, I think this issue has interesting sociological aspects as well. The first issue for me is, why was playing through concussions considered a point of pride? How is that changing now? The NFL is the most popular sport in the most powerful country in the world. What does that say about humanity in general right now, if anything? We hoist sports figures up onto pedestals while they play, but do we really care if they suffer traumatic brain damage that causes them to die early? Why is this dangerous sport idolized?

Those are just a few thoughts that pop into my head. The questions here really are numerous.


I'm a (former) psychology student who was very close to hitting up grad school for neuropsychology with a desired focus on the affects of brain injury due to sports, or near-death experiences. Naturally, this is a topic of interest for me. It ultimately is not the direction I ended up taking, but that doesn't change the interest I have in it and the passion I have for the topic(s). It's morbidly bittersweet; I find the topic fascinating, but yet so endlessly unfortunate. When stories like this come out like this I'm impossibly interested, but it's rarely anything positive. Positive research possibly, but usually depressing and unfortunate stories.

Re: OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:10 am
by Bernman
Ayt wrote:The first issue for me is, why was playing through concussions considered a point of pride?


Two simple answers to that.

1. Pressure from coaches and fans because they benefited from the win. So better stay on the field to accomplish that.
2. Toughness is a such a valued trait in society because some people are stupid and have nothing else to offer beyond running through a wall. Sure, toughness has value in situations where the benefit is worth enduring the event. But it doesn't have inherent value. When the drawbacks outweigh the benefits, it's just stupidity.

Re: OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:03 am
by Bernman
I'd just like to add this before my discussion on the topic ends for the day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg6vGpnRXcE

Re: OT: Duerson Asked Family to Look Into Brain Injury

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:35 am
by Bernman
An article from Malcolm Gladwell a while back documenting the anecdotal and evidential experiences of current and former football players. Also, constructs an analogy between football players and fighting dogs, which I think is mostly valid. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/10/19/091019fa_fact_gladwell I found the quantity and magnitude of sub-concussive events, which were likened to small car crashes, to be particularly eye opening.

Nowinski on Duerson's case and the issue of CTE in general: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/?podcast_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.podtrac.com%2Fpts%2Fredirect.mp3%2Fnyc.podcast.play.it%2Fmedia%2Fd0%2Fd0%2Fd0%2FdW%2FdW%2Fd8%2FdT%2FWW8T_3.MP3%3Fauthtok%3D5561386166376345519_ka3brMJLYcwNx7aHwoVxlpPMCc&podcast_name=Chris+Nowitzki%2C+Co-Director+for+the+Center+for+Traumatic+Encephalopathy%2C+on+the+Boers+and+Bernstein+show&podcast_artist=B%26amp%3BB&station_id=391&tag=pages&dcid=CBS.CHI

Boers and Bernstein have had a lot of discussion about the risks to participants of contact sports like football and the archives can be found here: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/show/the-boers-and-bernstein-show/#

I should amend my previous statement about Bernstein. It appears he does want as much information to surface as possible in order for people to make legitimate choices. It's just that when they do, he'll still watch, and prefers they're not protected in any way beyond what they are now.

Boers flat out stated that parents have an obligation to keep kids who have reasonable hope of doing anything else out of the sport.

Some guy named Rich Olinec wrote into the show: "[Dan] You pompous Jew, your pansy ass kid most likely doesn't have any athletic ability to play a tough sport like football anyways. Put that kid in tennis, you f-a-g."

Just goes to show the disconnect there will be amongst some people no matter how much information arises and how they'll shoot the messenger to keep things status quo for as long as possible.