PGT: Vikings

[thomchatt3rton]

He's coming off a torn ACL. It's expected.

He seems pretty far from 100% to me. Speed, quickness, the authority of his cuts, and his stamina all seem pretty compromised yet to me. I agree thats its to be expected tho.

Also he seems pretty down- everytime camera showed him closeup he had a super long face on.

He is a step slower. He also clearly doesn't trust his ability to make decisive cuts - most particularly on those classic back shoulder throws. This offense, in its current form, needs those throws. They are not there.

MM really needs to get his head out of his ass. As others have stated, very simple reintroductions are a necessity: screens, I formation, slants, short crossing routes, play action. Let's move away from these ridiculous plays that require A-Rod to prance about like a skittish fawn for 4 seconds before he is blindsided and fumbles away the game.

I knew he wasn't going to be 100% right away coming back, but I have to say I'm a bit surprised at how compromised he looks. I think House said last week post-game he estimated Jordy at about 80%, but to me he seems less himself than that.

I'm not too worried about him long-term though yet- we'll cross that bridge when we come to it; there's just no sense in worrying about that now until there's some specific reason to.

Plus he looks sad.

[UWM_Brew_Buck]

I've watched too many years of Packers football to know that Week 1 & 2 overreactions are normal, and they usually even out over the course of a long season. It is a bit depressing though, because it actually looks like we have the best defense we've had since 2010, and now the offense has become the problem.

I could chalk this up to being week 1 and 2, but this looks like the same offense as last year.

I'm kinda on the fence. I'm pessimistic on MM's scheme at this point, but they were "fine" (not great) at JAX and struggled but still nearly won basically in the toughest environment we'll ever play in save for @Seattle maybe. I'm going to be worried if it doesn't pick up soon.

I am basically here as well. This offense needs to figure a lot of things out but I do think it is fixable. Hopefully sooner than later but there is a lot of season left to figure it out. I am probably one of the biggest MM "fans" here but if our offense repeats what it did last year he needs to be gone. Simply too much offensive talent and the defense is finally good enough to actually help win an Owl.

[rilamann]

Plus he looks sad.

I'd look sad too if I was an offensive player and had to play for Mike McCarthy.

[KidA24]

Just wait until Mayo gets back. We'll be fine then.

[StickeeFingaz]

Apologize if this has been asked already but what coaches out there, that are currently available, would you guys be ok with if we fired McCarthy?

Even though I can't stand the guy, Harbaugh seems to get a lot out of this players.

[jakecronus8]

Apologize if this has been asked already but what coaches out there, that are currently available, would you guys be ok with if we fired McCarthy?

Even though I can't stand the guy, Harbaugh seems to get a lot out of this players.

I've always wanted Gruden. Don't know how he'd fit with Rodgers but I know he has a man crush on him, and I'm just obsessed with how knowledgeable Grudes is.

[JHSFIVE]

Skip bayless is a tool but at the 2:55 mark, I think this guy Lombardi absolutely hits it on the head.

Watch on YouTube

[Profound23]

Apologize if this has been asked already but what coaches out there, that are currently available, would you guys be ok with if we fired McCarthy?

Even though I can't stand the guy, Harbaugh seems to get a lot out of this players.

Just two coaches with Mc.... who I would take over McCarthy.


McDermott....McDaniels....


If you want another Mike, I will take Shula.

And that's just guys with similar names to our coach...plenty of others out there who would give us a fresh look.

[thomchatt3rton]

Genuine question for the folks convinced MM/scheme is 100% to blame: why doesn't Rodgers get any of the blame for failure in scheme?

A couple years ago the coaches said publicly that "the keys of the offense have been handed over to Rodgers". He was given the freedom and the responsibility to run the offense making calls at the line.

Why then is it always MM's fault and never Rodgers' when it comes to schematic failures? Shouldn't a portion of that blame fall to Rodgers given his power over how the plays are run?

I have no idea what percentage of the plays we run can be attributed to Rodgers and which are entirely MM (or what percentage of each play can be attributed to MM's design and which to Rodger's freedom of implementation).

Obviously, MM is the overall architect of the offense. But on the field, Rodgers is in charge, and I believe our offense, by design, has a ton of variations built into each play which it is then the QBs job to read the D at the line make calls accordingly.

It's just interesting that I don't think I've ever heard any of the folks who blame scheme hold Rodgers accountable for his part in the play-calling. Ever.

Does anybody remember when exactly that big "we're giving Aaron the keys" announcement came out? I know that in reality it was a gradual transition, but I remember there was an official public announcement of sorts. Maybe it's possible to trace our current offensive woes to that and it's just taken a while to come to full, sh*tty fruition? This is wild speculation of course, but this issue is so baffling that I'm beginning to consider wild speculations- I've even given the Munn-is-a-Yoko/succubus nonsense a few moments of time.

[HKPackFan]

I will never understand this rationale. If anything, it made more sense to go for it on 4th down in this game because even if you didn't convert, you still had plenty of chances to win the game, which we did. It took us two hail mary's to get the touchdown in the playoff game and we were down to Jeff Janis and Abbrederis as our only WR's.

I fail to see how our chances of getting a 2PT conversion (given how terrible our offense had been and the personnel that were available)were even remotely favorable to the near guarantee that you tie it up with the extra point with a kicker who was perfect from that range in Crosby. But yes, we can at least agree that the offense looking like **** is the reason we lost the game.

I did read somewhere, Janis got hurt in the hail Mary td so they ran out of Wrs, so the 2pt conversion was off the table. If Janis is hobbled for a moment and Cobb is out. I can totally see not having enough wr bodies to run a 2ptr.

If you don't have enough bodies for a 2pt conversion, how would you have enough to put a drive together and win in OT? HUH?

What I'm saying is, in the heat of the moment I get the decision. Your QB is sucking wind, your WR is getting attended to, you have a moment to decide what to do, and all you got in your playbook are 2pt conversions featuring Cobb and 3 WR sets.

I can get a coach not being comfortable enough to call a 2pt at that moment, and try and gather himself for OT. Changing up the scheme to go run heavy/play action, understanding who is available (OK let's talk to the TEs and get them ready) time to dig deeper into the playbook and come up with an offensive plan. Give QB a moment, give the injured WR a moment, see if he's available. If the injured WR could even be a decoy to at least run deep and take a corner and safety with him, that can still open things up. There are still options available. But you do need a moment to gather yourself and the offense. I'm saying I get it.

That being said, my confidence in MM is shaken, and he probably would have run a toss to Lacy for minus 3 yards. Then ran a TE screen to Dick Rodgers for 0 yards. And the whole thing is a moot point.

[HKPackFan]

Genuine question for the folks convinced MM/scheme is 100% to blame: why doesn't Rodgers get any of the blame for failure in scheme?

A couple years ago the coaches said publicly that "the keys of the offense have been handed over to Rodgers". He was given the freedom and the responsibility to run the offense making calls at the line.

Why then is it always MM's fault and never Rodgers' when it comes to schematic failures? Shouldn't a portion of that blame fall to Rodgers given his power over how the plays are run?

I have no idea what percentage of the plays we run can be attributed to Rodgers and which are entirely MM (or what percentage of each play can be attributed to MM's design and which to Rodger's freedom of implementation).

Obviously, MM is the overall architect of the offense. But on the field, Rodgers is in charge, and I believe our offense, by design, has a ton of variations built into each play which it is then the QBs job to read the D at the line make calls accordingly.

It's just interesting that I don't think I've ever heard any of the folks who blame scheme hold Rodgers accountable for his part in the play-calling. Ever.

Does anybody remember when exactly that big "we're giving Aaron the keys" announcement came out? I know that in reality it was a gradual transition, but I remember there was an official public announcement of sorts. Maybe it's possible to trace our current offensive woes to that and it's just taken a while to come to full, sh*tty fruition? This is wild speculation of course, but this issue is so baffling that I'm beginning to consider wild speculations- I've even given the Munn-is-a-Yoko/succubus nonsense a few moments of time.

Ya that's kinda what I've been wondering. When they gave the keys to Aaron, does he now have so much on his plate, he's over thinking things at the LOS, and seeing ghosts and having paralysis by analysis. Sometimes mentally reviewing some much information at once causes paralysis. I sometimes need to take a step back and need to stop over-analyzing a situation, and just keep it simple. I wonder if that's happening to Rodgers, and he needs to be less a playcaller and more just drop back and just throw the ball. It's just a theory, but I don't know what else could be ailing him, physically he should be in his prime.

I'm also not into the, "He's gone Hollywood, he's too busy getting some strange with Munn" nonsense.

Although on a sidenote, now that there's speculation Munn and the Rodgers clan have some bad feelings, I wonder if the Rodgers clan see Olivia get blamed for Aaron's struggles on social media and elsewhere and just soak it up and hi5 each other. Haha. Sorry, that's TMZ territory I didn't want to go there.

[StickeeFingaz]

Apologize if this has been asked already but what coaches out there, that are currently available, would you guys be ok with if we fired McCarthy?

Even though I can't stand the guy, Harbaugh seems to get a lot out of this players.

I've always wanted Gruden. Don't know how he'd fit with Rodgers but I know he has a man crush on him, and I'm just obsessed with how knowledgeable Grudes is.

Gruden would be very interesting. I could get down with that.

[th87]

I'm trying to think of other things missing from 2014, and now I realize, Eddie Lacy used to be a good check down option.

What the hell happened to the check down RB in our playbook???

Kuhn was good for 3-5 yards a pop for a decade or whatever. That's been in the playbook since William Henderson broke it down to a science of leaping over a LB for at min. 4 yards per catch.

Lacy 2014 receiving: 42rec, 427 yards, 10.2yds per, 26.7ypg, 4TD, 4 (20yd+), 17 1st downs. (he was the THIRD leading receiver on the team after Jordy and Cobb).

What the hell happened to that? That always seemed like a great idea to get Lacy in open space churning up field and usually getting a LB or DB one on one, which he often won that battle and got extra yac.

In 2014 Lacy was a damn stud, most of those catches were check downs, only a few were screen plays. He called himself randy Moss. Now he has butter fingers from eating too many and can't run? How can 2014 be so different than 2016?

I know I'll be in the minority on this and yes,I know the Packers got off to a 6-0 start last season.

I brought this up last season and I still think some of this bad offense stuff has something to do with that Championship game vs Seattle,particularly with and between Rodgers and McCarthy.I don't know if Rodgers and or McCarthy are mind **** from that game,or it caused some sort of big rift between him and McCarthy and other players on the team that we don't know about.But something isn't right and for the most part hasn't been since that game.

I just find it ironic that this offense went from being so good in 2014 to so bad in 2015 & 2016 with the pretty much the same cast of players.

Sure,I could understand if the offense wasn't quite as good now as it was in 2014.

But how do we go from a high cylinder offense and MVP Aaron Rodgers throwing 5 first half TDs vs the Bears in 2014,to falling off the face of the **** earth and struggling to get first downs with pretty much the same group in such a short period of time.

I know McCarthy is not a good NFL head coach,but I just can't buy that Aaron Rodgers went from league MVP to washed up in 20 months while at the same time everybody else forgot how to play football.

Happened to Sherman after 4th and 26 too. Team lost discipline, there was infighting (Mike McKenzie then, Sitton now), and things were never the same.

[thomchatt3rton]

Spoiler:

Genuine question for the folks convinced MM/scheme is 100% to blame: why doesn't Rodgers get any of the blame for failure in scheme?

A couple years ago the coaches said publicly that "the keys of the offense have been handed over to Rodgers". He was given the freedom and the responsibility to run the offense making calls at the line.

Why then is it always MM's fault and never Rodgers' when it comes to schematic failures? Shouldn't a portion of that blame fall to Rodgers given his power over how the plays are run?

I have no idea what percentage of the plays we run can be attributed to Rodgers and which are entirely MM (or what percentage of each play can be attributed to MM's design and which to Rodger's freedom of implementation).

Obviously, MM is the overall architect of the offense. But on the field, Rodgers is in charge, and I believe our offense, by design, has a ton of variations built into each play which it is then the QBs job to read the D at the line make calls accordingly.

It's just interesting that I don't think I've ever heard any of the folks who blame scheme hold Rodgers accountable for his part in the play-calling. Ever.

Does anybody remember when exactly that big "we're giving Aaron the keys" announcement came out? I know that in reality it was a gradual transition, but I remember there was an official public announcement of sorts. Maybe it's possible to trace our current offensive woes to that and it's just taken a while to come to full, sh*tty fruition? This is wild speculation of course, but this issue is so baffling that I'm beginning to consider wild speculations- I've even given the Munn-is-a-Yoko/succubus nonsense a few moments of time.

Ya that's kinda what I've been wondering. When they gave the keys to Aaron, does he now have so much on his plate, he's over thinking things at the LOS, and seeing ghosts and having paralysis by analysis. Sometimes mentally reviewing some much information at once causes paralysis. I sometimes need to take a step back and need to stop over-analyzing a situation, and just keep it simple. I wonder if that's happening to Rodgers, and he needs to be less a playcaller and more just drop back and just throw the ball. It's just a theory, but I don't know what else could be ailing him, physically he should be in his prime.

I'm also not into the, "He's gone Hollywood, he's too busy getting some strange with Munn" nonsense.

Although on a sidenote, now that there's speculation Munn and the Rodgers clan have some bad feelings, I wonder if the Rodgers clan see Olivia get blamed for Aaron's struggles on social media and elsewhere and just soak it up and hi5 each other. Haha. Sorry, that's TMZ territory I didn't want to go there.

It may be revealed later that Munn was a problem and distraction to Rodgers' career, but until that day comes, we're right to refuse to lower ourselves to that level- we're better than that, HK

The play-design and formations etc are MM's design, but in the style of "west coast" offense GB runs, there's a ton of freedom and responsibility on Rodgers and the WRs to make reads and run the right variation of the play MM has called.

SO, I don't understand how people who blame the scheme put all the fault on MM and none on Rodgers (and the WRs) for how they implement the scheme.

That's probably what MM means when he says "execution". But it seems like a lot of people think "execution" means not being fast enough to gain separation, or something else purely physical. The whole notion of "scheme vs execution" seems like it's being erroneously interpreted by a lot of us fans as a strictly "coach vs players" divide when in fact the line blurs.

This is an interesting article in context of this debate. Especially about halfway down the page when it starts to talk about the GB offense/schemes under MM:
http://grantland.com/features/aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-green-bay-packers-new-age-west-coast-offense/

[FAH1223]

Skip bayless is a tool but at the 2:55 mark, I think this guy Lombardi absolutely hits it on the head.

Watch on YouTube

Michael Lombardi is absolutely right..

[thomchatt3rton]

Skip bayless is a tool but at the 2:55 mark, I think this guy Lombardi absolutely hits it on the head.

Watch on YouTube

Michael Lombardi is absolutely right..

Maybe he is right, but I'd like it if he made clearer, more specific points. I realize that shows like this aren't built for that.

I feel like he's really just repeating the same sort of generalities other pundits have already generalized about- "the scheme is easy to defend", "the scheme isn't creative enough", "the scheme puts too much on the players". These are all platitudes. I'm not sure what they mean, if anything, in any real sense.

The one specific thing he does mention is that we don't have enough talent/personnel in our "receivers, backs and tight ends". How this proves the scheme is unsound, easy to defend or whatever, I don't know.

I suppose you can ding McCarthy for not scrapping his system (which was a sound one for years) to accommodate the lack of talent. Maybe that's fair, but it's also kind of like burying the lead.

[Profound23]

What if Titans call and offer Mariota, Derrick Henry, their 1st 2017, Rams 1st 2017, their 2nd 2017, and the Rams 3rd 2017 for Rodgers?

Who takes that deal?

[midranger]

Jordy nelsons route tree must look like this

1. Line up outside. Run straight. If defender is running with your front shoulder, break route at 15 yards and turn over back shoulder. Hope ball hits you perfectly in right elbow nook. If defender is playing non-front shoulder, continue running in a straight line.

2. See #1

[midranger]

I'm not going pretend to be able to fully breakdown an nfl teams offense. However, I do get the distinct impression that McCarthy has this real old school football coach mentality that you should able to run your plays even if the other team knows what plays you're running. Out execute. Impose your will. Insert cliche.

Maybe that works when you have absolutely elite level talent, but even a modest drop off leads to disaster, and years of thinking it's just the execution that's off.

I'm not giving Rodgers a pass because he didn't execute in those few opportunities he had to make a big throw. That said, he should be getting a few opportunities on every series. That's mot happening. It's because the defenses know what we're doing and they're able to take it away.

McCarthy has dinosaur thinking. Probably time to make a switch.

[thomchatt3rton]

Jordy nelsons route tree

Jordy Nelson's route tree looked like Christmas f*cking morning not very long ago.