Capers mainly just to blame for the defense?

El Duderino · Post #1 » by **El Duderino** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:47 am

After the latest meltdown by the defense, i read the hating on Capers for all the blame and FWIW, i wanted him fired all of the way back to that playoff debacle in San Fran when it looked like his defense had never even heard of the read option before. That was inexcusable.

With that said, using the last 6 drafts since the Super Bowl Ted has managed to build a quality OL with only one 1st round pick. He's had a very good eye for receivers since becoming GM. Tight end good with Finley, struggled since. Overall, drafting offense a strength. In those 6 drafts though since the Super Bowl, here are his 26 selections on defense by year.

House
DJ Smith
Elmore

Perry
Worthy
Hayward
Daniels
McMillian
Manning

D.Jones
Hyde
Boyd
Palmer
Barrington

Dix
Thorton
Bradford
Goodson

Randall
Rollins
Ryan
Ringo

Clark
Fackrell
Martinez
Lowry

Daniels is the best player of those 26 selections and his play/impact is up and down. Dix next given Perry can't stay healthy. Probably Ryan third.

Are any easily Pro Bowl caliber? Hard to say that. If we include Perry even with his health woes, those four are the only ones who are above average players at their position and it's debatable if Ryan is. To be fair, those in the current draft class are rookies and Hayward was a pretty good corner before leaving.

So yea, barring another trip to the Super Bowl, i hope Capers is sent packing, regardless if McCarthy stays. That said, i don't care who were to get hired as the new defensive coordinator, until Ted starts drafting much better on that side of the ball, mediocre at best results will follow. This isn't a talented defense compared to ones that are.

Post #2 » by **MickeyDavis** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:38 pm

It's tough to separate the on field talent vs. coaching. When Barlkey is lighting us up is it because Capers is always calling the wrong defenses or because the players are blowing coverage and not putting pressure on the QB? Talent vs. execution. McCarthy came out and said Randall was blowing coverages and was benched. When McCarthy calls a run and it loses 2 yards he's an idiot, when a run gains 12 yards it was a good call. Zook gets blasted but he's not out there blocking in the back or missing tackles. It does seem as if Capers prefers the bend/don't break philosophy. The problem is there is too much of the "break". There's no doubt the talent on defense is lacking. I don't see McCarthy letting Capers go but he's 66, maybe he's had enough.

Mags FTW · Post #3 » by **Mags FTW** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:06 pm

There's bad defense and then there's historically bad, as in giving up 153 points over 4 games. While some may question the talent, it's isn't bad enough that you can justify those horrible numbers.

I felt the same way about McCarthy's offense during the slump. I've never seen a QB continually have that much time to throw but fail to find an open receiver. You couldn't tell me the talent on offense was so bad compared to other teams who could regularly get guys open.

jakecronus8 · Post #4 » by **jakecronus8** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:00 am

Capers may not be the greatest but it'd be very tough to convince me that their struggles this year wasn't far more talent related than scheme related. When we have the talent and are healthy his scheme has proven to work quite well.

Post #5 » by **humanrefutation** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:17 am

It's a bit of both, but I think what's been proven here and in pretty much every great defense is that it comes down to whether you have a great pass rush. When the Packers have a great pass rush, everything works and our defense is great. When their pass rush is non-existent, it doesn't matter how good your secondary is because you'll still get burned eventually.

Ted has drafted guys like Perry and Datone who were expected to be great pass rushers, and never quite panned out as such (Perry shows flashes with his bull rush but he can't stay on the field). He drafted Clay, who is one of the great pass rushers in the league when healthy, but he hasn't been. He signed Peppers, who was great in 2014 but has declined since then. He's drafted a few other guys who haven't panned out.

Ted has also failed to provide Capers with adequate performers at MLB, though I have hope for Ryan and Martinez.

So I'm inclined to give Ted more blame than Capers in that regard, but Capers is always going to be the first guy to fall.

JEIS · Post #6 » by **JEIS** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:22 am

Over the past few years the packers lost a lot of their best assets in the scouting department... a lot of the folks Thompson had doing his leg work left.

thomchatt3rton · Post #7 » by **thomchatt3rton** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:26 am

I find it hard to blame Dom but I can't prove that thats reasonable.

I just don't see a ton of talent on that side of the ball, and when we had better talent, the D was better.

HKPackFan · Post #8 » by **HKPackFan** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:34 am

humanrefutation wrote:It's a bit of both, but I think what's been proven here and in pretty much every great defense is that it comes down to whether you have a great pass rush. When the Packers have a great pass rush, everything works and our defense is great. When their pass rush is non-existent, it doesn't matter how good your secondary is because you'll still get burned eventually.

Ted has drafted guys like Perry and Datone who were expected to be great pass rushers, and never quite panned out as such (Perry shows flashes with his bull rush but he can't stay on the field). He drafted Clay, who is one of the great pass rushers in the league when healthy, but he hasn't been. He signed Peppers, who was great in 2014 but has declined since then. He's drafted a few other guys who haven't panned out.

Ted has also failed to provide Capers with adequate performers at MLB, though I have hope for Ryan and Martinez.

So I'm inclined to give Ted more blame than Capers in that regard, but Capers is always going to be the first guy to fall.

I think it's this. A bit of both. Capers sometimes seems to have a scheme that sometimes doesn't fit his personnel. I mean, the MLBs are the playmakers while the dline eats up the blockers the inside ILBs are supposed to be making things happen and we have had the worst ILBs since Bishop left. We've never dedicated any kind of resources to that position. Now we finally have a couple of young draft picks who might be able to do the game, but feels like so many years too late.

Perfect point, the pass rush is key, and when our pass rush sucks from the 4 rushers and we are force to blitz our LBs who suck at blitzing we never hit home and the defense is exposed. Or we stay with 4 rushers and watch QBs pick us apart all day long.

Not looking bright for the future on pass rush, Peppers is old, Claymaker's body is wearing out, Datone is meh, Perry can't stay on the field. 3 of those 4 could be gone, and not much in the pipe behind them, Fackrell and Elliott seem OK depth guys not starters.

El Duderino · Post #9 » by **El Duderino** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:09 pm

HKPackFan wrote:
I think it's this. A bit of both. Capers sometimes seems to have a scheme that sometimes doesn't fit his personnel. I mean, the MLBs are the playmakers while the dline eats up the blockers the inside ILBs are supposed to be making things happen and we have had the worst ILBs since Bishop left. We've never dedicated any kind of resources to that position. Now we finally have a couple of young draft picks who might be able to do the game, but feels like so many years too late.

Perfect point, the pass rush is key, and when our pass rush sucks from the 4 rushers and we are force to blitz our LBs who suck at blitzing we never hit home and the defense is exposed. Or we stay with 4 rushers and watch QBs pick us apart all day long.

Not looking bright for the future on pass rush, Peppers is old, Claymaker's body is wearing out, Datone is meh, Perry can't stay on the field. 3 of those 4 could be gone, and not much in the pipe behind them, Fackrell and Elliott seem OK depth guys not starters.

This is another reason i go back to Ted.

In pretty much any 3-4 scheme it's a given that the inside linebackers are used in blitzes quite a bit, while the outside backers then back off into coverage. Yet, Ted has never drafted inside backers with the type of athletic ability or explosion to make them more threatening on the blitz. The one guy who did disrupt on those type of blitzes was Bishop, but other than that it's been mostly just a bunch of marginal players and athletes.

Most really good defense has some playmakers. With Shields done and Clay's body breaking down, this defense lacks any consistent playmaker, much less multiple ones.

Like you and others have stated though, it mainly comes down to the pass rush and the consistent lack of one. It's tough for quality corners to hold up when quarterbacks have lots of time to throw, but a trio of Gunter, Randall, and Rollins is hardly what would be labeled a high quality group of corners. It's a below average trio. Weak pass rush combined with these corners isn't a recipe for success.

M-C-G · Post #10 » by **M-C-G** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:34 pm

His fault or not, I'm tired with never getting off the field on third downs. So maybe it is just time for something different. I gave Capers the excuse of losing Collins because when we had safeties this defense was very good. Now we have safeties again, and it seems like we have the same problems.