2017 Offseason Thread II

[ReasonablySober]

Seriously? Do a google search for "Lebron James ESPYs Black Lives Matter". Literally hundreds of articles about it pull up.

You're really gonna bring up an athlete like LeBron and something as stupid as the ESPYs vs Kaep and an NFL game?

[humanrefutation]

You literally just called anyone with a different opinion racist. How exactly is that non combative?.... And people wonder why there's a divide in this country

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I'm going to single you out: Do you object to police brutality against minorities?

Yes. Like anyone does. I also object to police brutality against non minorities also. Like everyone should.

There's still zero reason to call everyone that thinks it was disrespectful to kneel a racist because they have a different opinion on it. It's almost as dumb as calling anyone that voted for Trump a racist. Maybe try and not demonize the other side simply because they dissagree with your opinion.

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Nah, people should take accountability for their opinions. If they voted for Trump, they are comfortable electing a candidate that has proposed to - and is implementing - a variety of policies that specifically targets minorities. Which means that they don't think that promoting racist policies disqualifies him from being President. Which means the lives and rights of those minorities isn't worth protecting. Which means they're racist. How hard is that for you to understand?

If they're opposing Kaep because he kneeled, it's because they're prioritizing the method over the cause he's advocating for. They think it's more important to stand for the **** song than it is to fight for the lives of people of color being killed by the police. And that is racist.

It's really not that hard to reach that conclusion when you actually hold yourself accountable for the consequences of your opinion. Just own it.

[ReasonablySober]

Look, I'm just a white dude. There's a minority in this thread who's telling you what's racist. Maybe just listen to him?

I wonder why some people just don't understand that understanding racism requires a lens of expertise, like any other knowledge area. If I'm suffering a injury, I'm not just going to listen to any person's perspective, I'm going to ask a doctor. If I'm looking to learn how to fix my engine, I'm going to ask a mechanic. If I want to learn more about gravity, I'll ask a physicist. Racism is the same way. If you haven't experienced it, studied it, engaged with it, and learned from it, don't pretend that your perspective is as valuable or intelligent or informed as someone who has.

That doesn't mean that all minorities agree on these things, because we don't. But there are consensus's which form, or other widely shared views, and they're worth listening to even so you can better understand where they're coming from.

[humanrefutation]

Did the Veteran in the article say anything about wanting "to kill black people"? No of course not, he's just objecting to the method of Kaep's protest.

Lebron and DWade made a BLM statement while they were on stage at the ESPYs that got a lot of positive coverage for the movement. Did they get the same backlash Kaep did? No because they didn't offend a large subsection of the population. Same message, different result.

It's the ESPYs and no one gives a ****.

Seriously? Do a google search for "Lebron James ESPYs Black Lives Matter". Literally hundreds of articles about it pull up.

No disrespect to LeBron, who has put himself out there before and been rebuked for it (like when the Heat came out with hoodies after Trayvon's murder or when they wore BLM shirts). But the milquetoast sentiment of he and Wade, Melo, and CP3 didn't cause a major issue because the setting was different, and because they didn't ruffle any feathers with what they said.

That doesn't mean I don't credit them for their speech. It was great. But I don't see why we should spend more time debating the method than focusing on the actual cause itself.

[RRyder823]

I'm going to single you out: Do you object to police brutality against minorities?

Yes. Like anyone does. I also object to police brutality against non minorities also. Like everyone should.

There's still zero reason to call everyone that thinks it was disrespectful to kneel a racist because they have a different opinion on it. It's almost as dumb as calling anyone that voted for Trump a racist. Maybe try and not demonize the other side simply because they dissagree with your opinion.

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Nah, people should take accountability for their opinions. If they voted for Trump, they are comfortable electing a candidate that has proposed to - and is implementing - a variety of policies that specifically targets minorities. Which means that they don't think that promoting racist policies disqualifies him from being President. Which means the lives and rights of those minorities isn't worth protecting. Which means they're racist. How hard is that for you to understand?

If they're opposing Kaep because he kneeled, it's because they're prioritizing the method over the cause he's advocating for. They think it's more important to stand for the **** song than it is to fight for the lives of people of color being killed by the police. And that is racist.

It's really not that hard to reach that conclusion when you actually hold yourself accountable for the consequences of your opinion. Just own it.

And it's not hard to understand that calling someone racist for simply having a different opinion is dumb, counter productive and shuts down any conversation because well.... It's dumb and close minded.

But by all means continue with the "if you don't agree with me your racist" attitude and enjoy the echo chamber

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[humanrefutation]

Yes. Like anyone does. I also object to police brutality against non minorities also. Like everyone should.

There's still zero reason to call everyone that thinks it was disrespectful to kneel a racist because they have a different opinion on it. It's almost as dumb as calling anyone that voted for Trump a racist. Maybe try and not demonize the other side simply because they dissagree with your opinion.

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Nah, people should take accountability for their opinions. If they voted for Trump, they are comfortable electing a candidate that has proposed to - and is implementing - a variety of policies that specifically targets minorities. Which means that they don't think that promoting racist policies disqualifies him from being President. Which means the lives and rights of those minorities isn't worth protecting. Which means they're racist. How hard is that for you to understand?

If they're opposing Kaep because he kneeled, it's because they're prioritizing the method over the cause he's advocating for. They think it's more important to stand for the **** song than it is to fight for the lives of people of color being killed by the police. And that is racist.

It's really not that hard to reach that conclusion when you actually hold yourself accountable for the consequences of your opinion. Just own it.

And it's not hard to understand that calling someone racist for simply having a different opinion is dumb, counter productive and shuts down any conversation because well.... It's dumb and close minded.

But by all means continue with the "if you don't agree with me your racist" attitude.

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If an opinion is racist, I'm going to call it racist. If the person who espouses that racist opinion has a problem with that, maybe they should consider not having that opinion.

It's like if someone said Aaron Rodgers was a **** Quarterback. I'd call that opinion idiotic. If a person doesn't want to be called out for having an idiotic opinion, then they should re-evaluate whether their opinion is intelligent.

Opinions are not just statements in a vacuum. They have meaning.

[RRyder823]

Nah, people should take accountability for their opinions. If they voted for Trump, they are comfortable electing a candidate that has proposed to - and is implementing - a variety of policies that specifically targets minorities. Which means that they don't think that promoting racist policies disqualifies him from being President. Which means the lives and rights of those minorities isn't worth protecting. Which means they're racist. How hard is that for you to understand?

If they're opposing Kaep because he kneeled, it's because they're prioritizing the method over the cause he's advocating for. They think it's more important to stand for the **** song than it is to fight for the lives of people of color being killed by the police. And that is racist.

It's really not that hard to reach that conclusion when you actually hold yourself accountable for the consequences of your opinion. Just own it.

And it's not hard to understand that calling someone racist for simply having a different opinion is dumb, counter productive and shuts down any conversation because well.... It's dumb and close minded.

But by all means continue with the "if you don't agree with me your racist" attitude.

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If an opinion is racist, I'm going to call it racist. If the person who espouses that racist opinion has a problem with that, maybe they should consider not having that opinion.

It's like if someone said Aaron Rodgers was a **** Quarterback. I'd call that opinion idiotic. If a person doesn't want to be called out for having an idiotic opinion, then they should re-evaluate whether their opinion is intelligent.

Opinions are not just statements in a vacuum. They have meaning.

To summarize

"If you don't agree with me your racist"

You've allready come to your own conclusions on why people do certain things or hold a different set of political beliefs with no room for discussion. Enjoy your echo chamber

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[Kerb Hohl]

And it's not hard to understand that calling someone racist for simply having a different opinion is dumb, counter productive and shuts down any conversation because well.... It's dumb and close minded.

But by all means continue with the "if you don't agree with me your racist" attitude.

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If an opinion is racist, I'm going to call it racist. If the person who espouses that racist opinion has a problem with that, maybe they should consider not having that opinion.

It's like if someone said Aaron Rodgers was a **** Quarterback. I'd call that opinion idiotic. If a person doesn't want to be called out for having an idiotic opinion, then they should re-evaluate whether their opinion is intelligent.

Opinions are not just statements in a vacuum. They have meaning.

To summarize

"If you don't agree with me your racist"

You've allready come to your own conclusions on why people do certain things or hold a different set of political beliefs with no room for discussion. Enjoy your echo chamber

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Being too dumb to understand socioeconomic issues is not a "political belief."

As for the national anthem, again, the Internet is a wonderful thing and I think the smarter we become and more aware of the globe as a whole we become, the less need we feel to show nationalism like it's a cult. The USA is a really great country but of things for me to get riled up about, sitting for a stupid **** song is extremely low on the scale of things.

I can at least understand some of the older generation getting riled up for non-racial reasons due to the fact that they fought in a meaningful war (these people are all over 80 now) and grew up with the extreme national pride because they had to. I appreciate the USA but I think we're enlightened enough now in this age of technology to understand that there's more great countries out there and that telling somebody to pledge allegiance to a flag is really stupid and probably a dumber act than kneeling for the anthem.

[humanrefutation]

And it's not hard to understand that calling someone racist for simply having a different opinion is dumb, counter productive and shuts down any conversation because well.... It's dumb and close minded.

But by all means continue with the "if you don't agree with me your racist" attitude.

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If an opinion is racist, I'm going to call it racist. If the person who espouses that racist opinion has a problem with that, maybe they should consider not having that opinion.

It's like if someone said Aaron Rodgers was a **** Quarterback. I'd call that opinion idiotic. If a person doesn't want to be called out for having an idiotic opinion, then they should re-evaluate whether their opinion is intelligent.

Opinions are not just statements in a vacuum. They have meaning.

To summarize

"If you don't agree with me your racist"

You've allready come to your own conclusions on why people do certain things or hold a different set of political beliefs with no room for discussion. Enjoy your echo chamber

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Oh, you almost got that right. The correct summary is:

If you have a racist opinion, I'm going to call it racist.

It's pathetic that for some people is it more problematic to be called a racist than it is to actually espouse a racist opinion.

Some people somehow believe that every opinion deserves equal respect and consideration. Racist opinions do not deserve our respect or consideration. They deserve our scorn.

Yet, some of you don't agree with that. And that's really frightening and sad tbh.

[TheProdigy]

Nah, people should take accountability for their opinions. If they voted for Trump, they are comfortable electing a candidate that has proposed to - and is implementing - a variety of policies that specifically targets minorities. Which means that they don't think that promoting racist policies disqualifies him from being President. Which means the lives and rights of those minorities isn't worth protecting. Which means they're racist. How hard is that for you to understand?

If they're opposing Kaep because he kneeled, it's because they're prioritizing the method over the cause he's advocating for. They think it's more important to stand for the **** song than it is to fight for the lives of people of color being killed by the police. And that is racist.

It's really not that hard to reach that conclusion when you actually hold yourself accountable for the consequences of your opinion. Just own it.

And it's not hard to understand that calling someone racist for simply having a different opinion is dumb, counter productive and shuts down any conversation because well.... It's dumb and close minded.

But by all means continue with the "if you don't agree with me your racist" attitude.

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If an opinion is racist, I'm going to call it racist.

Sounds like you're going to call an opinion racist even when it isn't.

[humanrefutation]

And it's not hard to understand that calling someone racist for simply having a different opinion is dumb, counter productive and shuts down any conversation because well.... It's dumb and close minded.

But by all means continue with the "if you don't agree with me your racist" attitude.

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If an opinion is racist, I'm going to call it racist.

Sounds like you're going to call an opinion racist even when it isn't.

Well you haven't been reading what I've been saying, then.

[TheProdigy]

If an opinion is racist, I'm going to call it racist.

Sounds like you're going to call an opinion racist even when it isn't.

Well you haven't been reading what I've been saying, then.

You think that anyone who disagrees with Kaepernick is a racist. Even if that person is a veteran who is personally offended because they see kneeling during the anthem as a sign of disrespect towards people who have fought for our freedoms. But that last part doesn't matter to you, so they're still a racist according to you.

Did I miss anything? I think that sums it up pretty well.

[humanrefutation]

Sounds like you're going to call an opinion racist even when it isn't.

Well you haven't been reading what I've been saying, then.

You think that anyone who disagrees with Kaepernick is a racist. Even if that person is a veteran who is personally offended because they see kneeling during the anthem as a sign of disrespect towards people who have fought for our freedoms. But that last part doesn't matter to you, so they're still a racist according to you.

Did I miss anything? I think that sums it up pretty well.

You're mostly there.

I believe that anyone who is offended by Kaep's protest is prioritizing standing for the flag over the cause itself. Which is racist for the reasons I've explained and will now delve into further.

It seems to me, the more I discuss this issue, that a lot of people don't understand racism. They believe if a person offers an opinion that doesn't expressly address race, it can't be racist.

To those people, it would be racist if someone said that they don't like Kaep because he's biracial or because they don't believe police brutality against black people is wrong.

But if you come up with some other reason, no matter how flimsy it is, it can't be racist.

The problem with that perspective is that it is incomplete and problematic. You don't often hear people saying (in public) that they hate Black people anymore. Even Richard Spencer, an unabashed Nazi, doesn't say that he hates black people.

These days, Racism isn't presented as a stated objective in most cases. Rather, it's seen in the effects of policy, opinion, or action on a group marginalized by it.

Thus, if you are a person who prioritizes standing for the flag over the values that flag is purported to represent - including due process, equal protection, and most relevantly, free speech - then at the very least, you're misinformed and lack credibility. And if you're doing so in response to a black person who is peacefully protesting police brutality, then you're, by definition, prioritizing your **** opinion over the lives of black people.

And that is racist. Whether you acknowledge that or not.

[Profound23]

Well you haven't been reading what I've been saying, then.

You think that anyone who disagrees with Kaepernick is a racist. Even if that person is a veteran who is personally offended because they see kneeling during the anthem as a sign of disrespect towards people who have fought for our freedoms. But that last part doesn't matter to you, so they're still a racist according to you.

Did I miss anything? I think that sums it up pretty well.

You're mostly there.

I believe that anyone who is offended by Kaep's protest is prioritizing standing for the flag over the cause itself. Which is racist for the reasons I've explained and will now delve into further.

It seems to me, the more I discuss this issue, that a lot of people don't understand racism. They believe if a person offers an opinion that doesn't expressly address race, it can't be racist.

To those people, it would be racist if someone said that they don't like Kaep because he's biracial or because they don't believe police brutality against black people is wrong.

But if you come up with some other reason, no matter how flimsy it is, it can't be racist.

The problem with that perspective is that it is incomplete and problematic. You don't often hear people saying (in public) that they hate Black people anymore. Even Richard Spencer, an unabashed Nazi, doesn't say that he hates black people.

These days, Racism isn't presented as a stated objective in most cases. Rather, it's seen in the effects of policy, opinion, or action on a group marginalized by it.

Thus, if you are a person who prioritizes standing for the flag over the values that flag is purported to represent - including due process, equal protection, and most relevantly, free speech - then at the very least, you're misinformed and lack credibility. And if you're doing so in response to a black person who is peacefully protesting police brutality, then you're, by definition, prioritizing your **** opinion over the lives of black people.

And that is racist. Whether you acknowledge that or not.

Thank you! Further more anyone who investigates the song that people stand for will see it was created by a racist who put racist remarks about slaves in the song. The fact that people even play the national anthem, let alone stand for it is beyond me. Especially at a time where we have a President who has former KKK members directly beneath him and fires anyone who investigates his crimes.

Also, on the Patriotic side of things most vets I know actually have said the reason they fight is for Kap to be able to kneel if he so chooses to. Just think once upon a time people looked at those who spoke bad of King George and refused to acknowledge the Union Jack as their flag the same way others are looking at Kap.

[M-C-G]

This is why we should stick to sports


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[humanrefutation]

This is why we should stick to sports


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Nah. The great thing about our board is that you can have a conversation about this - which is related to sports in this instance - that doesn't have to devolve into histrionics and vicious ad hominem attacks.

Doesn't mean you have to participate, though. We are all generally able to avoid conversations that we are uninterested in engaging in. I encourage you do to the same.

But if you want to discuss this, and it seems like you do with your consistent engagement here, that's fine, too. With me at least.

[M-C-G]

This is why we should stick to sports


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Nah. The great thing about our board is that you can have a conversation about this - which is related to sports in this instance - that doesn't have to devolve into histrionics and vicious ad hominem attacks.

Doesn't mean you have to participate, though. We are all generally able to avoid conversations that we are uninterested in engaging in. I encourage you do to the same.

But if you want to discuss this, and it seems like you do with your consistent engagement here, that's fine, too. With me at least.

Nah. I don't like insinuating that any group of people that disagree with me as racist or anything else for that matter. Taking that stance doesn't engage actual healthy conversation. It is pretty disingenuous to start any conversation with that kind of position and say "hey we are just having dialog here". It's not.

I come to a sports board to talk about sports and frankly I love it. You can tell me to just stay away but at last look this was a. Packer off season thread. You could just as easily talk about all this in a more fitting OT thread because it absolutely is OT.




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[chuckleslove]

I 100% support Kaepernick and his stand against police brutality. The numbers don't lie and the war on drugs and police in general have disproportionately hurt minorities.

Milwaukee County itself has the highest incarceration rate of African American men in the entire country and something like 2/3 of them are in for non violent crimes. I suggest a few posters should read up on incarceration rates and statistics as well as look at punishment trends for minorities, we are destroying entire communities and people should be pissed off about it.

That said I still think he is an idiot, wearing the shirt of a brutal dictator is tone deaf when you are taking a stand on abuse of authority.

The main reason I have no interest in him though is I just don't think its a good talent fit and I sure as **** don't want to cut Hundley for him. I think Hundley is a better fit and backup in 2017 than Kaepernick.

I couldn't care less about the distraction angle because there isn't a chance in hell the Packers wouldn't fill every single seat for every game including family night, pre season, etc... It would have almost no impact on that and I don't think it would be much of a distraction. We don't have that type of media and our locker room is stable. I just don't see it being a good fit talent wise. I thought at his peak he was overrated and as he gets older he is going to lose a step and that is going to hurt him more as his mobility decreases.

[humanrefutation]

This is why we should stick to sports


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Nah. The great thing about our board is that you can have a conversation about this - which is related to sports in this instance - that doesn't have to devolve into histrionics and vicious ad hominem attacks.

Doesn't mean you have to participate, though. We are all generally able to avoid conversations that we are uninterested in engaging in. I encourage you do to the same.

But if you want to discuss this, and it seems like you do with your consistent engagement here, that's fine, too. With me at least.

Nah. I don't like insinuating that any group of people that disagree with me as racist or anything else for that matter. Taking that stance doesn't engage actual healthy conversation. It is pretty disingenuous to start any conversation with that kind of position and say "hey we are just having dialog here". It's not.

I come to a sports board to talk about sports and frankly I love it. You can tell me to just stay away but at last look this was a. Packer off season thread. You could just as easily talk about all this in a more fitting OT thread because it absolutely is OT.




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I've explained why that perspective is racist. No one has offered a reasonable counterpoint to that. Rather, you and others have consistently and summarily responded that identifying racism and critiquing it is more problematic than the actual racism itself. I don't agree with that narrative.

Anyway, I'm done engaging with this for now. I've said my piece and am fine with moving on.

[M-C-G]

Nah. The great thing about our board is that you can have a conversation about this - which is related to sports in this instance - that doesn't have to devolve into histrionics and vicious ad hominem attacks.

Doesn't mean you have to participate, though. We are all generally able to avoid conversations that we are uninterested in engaging in. I encourage you do to the same.

But if you want to discuss this, and it seems like you do with your consistent engagement here, that's fine, too. With me at least.

Nah. I don't like insinuating that any group of people that disagree with me as racist or anything else for that matter. Taking that stance doesn't engage actual healthy conversation. It is pretty disingenuous to start any conversation with that kind of position and say "hey we are just having dialog here". It's not.

I come to a sports board to talk about sports and frankly I love it. You can tell me to just stay away but at last look this was a. Packer off season thread. You could just as easily talk about all this in a more fitting OT thread because it absolutely is OT.




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I've explained why that perspective is racist. No one has offered a reasonable counterpoint to that. Rather, you and others have consistently and summarily responded that identifying racism and critiquing it is more problematic than the actual racism itself. I don't agree with that narrative.

Anyway, I'm done engaging with this for now. I've said my piece and am fine with moving on.

Peace. Let's move on


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