A potentially perfect Packer draft. The un-told story.

[LB's Pack]

Since it's my 1st post... I gotta start off saying that I'm 28 and I've been a Packers fan almost as long as Favre has been a Packer. I also believe that this could be one of the more important drafts GB has had in a long time mOstly because of the likely anticipated departure of one of the best offensive field generals in the last 20 years. I do like the buzz about Aaron Rodgers' but with the way the team loOks right now, there is roOm for much team improvement if this guy should get a crack when "his greatness" hands in his cleats.

My Views: I've always viewed draft picks (particularly picks after the 3rd round) to be nothing but commodity value and mOst of the time should be dealt to other organizations (when plausable) to snatch up other tried and tested "NFL players" and not big time hit or miss later round "college players". Particularly dealing them for restricted FA's. Let them roll the dice, not us. I mean the overall % of guys that see regular starting time that were drafted post 3rd round is not very high compared to the 3rd round and up. I also believe that so called "next year" picks should mOstly be hung onto because you never know what that pick may actually be worth in the next draft to come. Particularly 1st and 2nd rounders.

My Proposal: Bottom line. The Packers gotta get Mr. career 6.0 YPC M.Turner. I saw plenty of SD games last year and he is a beast to say the least. He's an aquarius like A.Green is/was and another ferocious HB like L.Maroney' along with the likes of S.McNair and D.Driver. Favre is a libra and that back field would gel with uncanny results (All air element). I'm a pisces myself (H.Ward, Big Ben, C.Gamble, M.Faulk, R.Bush and even Shaq are some). Many I'm sure are balking at the astrological statement but without getting off the subject... knowing even lil details like that has won me hundreds in NFL betting. Even though I'm not much into gambleing. I only go with locks. Back to the details...
We absolutely cannot go into this season with what we currently have in the back field and put all the weight on Favre (after a 72.7 rate season) who'll be turning 38 not to long after the season gets started. The way they can do this (thanks to two Pats 1st rounders) without hurting our draft stance to much would be to take our mid 2nd rounder and our 5th rounder (or 4th if the Pats decline 1st offer) and trade them to the Pats for their 28th overall in the 1st. Now' we're in real position to grab Turner with that 28th overall, combined obviously with our mid 3rd rounder, all the while not giving up our 16th overall whom we absolutely should grab T.Ginn Jr. (Or freakish size D.Jarrett (6'4"/220 R.Moss size) if Ginn's gone). Now understand... I'm very high on Jennings but the only reason I say to grab Ginn is not only to steal the best player available (with a draft deep at WR) but Driver and all his greatness is now 32 for all of you who don't know. Plus this makes us deep at WR should someone get injured. Plus a silly goOd return man the Pack haven't had for as long as I can remember. Plus I smell Ginn WR screens... "sike" deep to singled up Jennings all day long.
The last time they decided to go with strength and speed upside rather than overall ability (and when my heart sunk into my stomach) was when the Pack went with A.Carroll over C.Gamble (also outta Ohio St. ironically), and we know the outcome of that show.
To make up for now not haveing a pick after we grab Ginn... all the way through the 4th or 5th round there's obviously one more thing on mOst Packer fans agenda and that's to trade KGB. I absolutely believe that KGB should not be involved in a player deal but instead be dealt for draft picks to the highest bidder. This way (because of KGB's outrageous salary) for not even an every down player we'll get the highest possible pick offered. In essence' the mOst bang for the buck. So now we're not subjegated to accept less than what he's worth since he'd be available to anyone who wants him. Also... one last note. Anyone notice how many DL is slated to go in the 1st round? Or for that matter... the top half of the 1st? There's alot of teams that'd love to have KGB I'm sure... especially in the top half of the draft to put themselves in position to trade down if they should choOse to do so with that base covered via trade. ~PeAcE~

[MickeyDavis]

Good first post. Welcome.

[ReasonablySober]

Since it's my 1st post... I gotta start off saying that I'm 28 and I've been a Packers fan almost as long as Favre has been a Packer. I also believe that this could be one of the more important drafts GB has had in a long time mOstly because of the likely anticipated departure of one of the best offensive field generals in the last 20 years. I do like the buzz about Aaron Rodgers' but with the way the team loOks right now, there is roOm for much team improvement if this guy should get a crack when "his greatness" hands in his cleats.

My Views: I've always viewed draft picks (particularly picks after the 3rd round) to be nothing but commodity value and mOst of the time should be dealt to other organizations (when plausable) to snatch up other tried and tested "NFL players" and not big time hit or miss later round "college players". Particularly dealing them for restricted FA's. Let them roll the dice, not us. I mean the overall % of guys that see regular starting time that were drafted post 3rd round is not very high compared to the 3rd round and up. I also believe that so called "next year" picks should mOstly be hung onto because you never know what that pick may actually be worth in the next draft to come. Particularly 1st and 2nd rounders.

My Proposal: Bottom line. The Packers gotta get Mr. career 6.0 YPC M.Turner. I saw plenty of SD games last year and he is a beast to say the least. He's an aquarius like A.Green is/was and another ferocious HB like L.Maroney' along with the likes of S.McNair and D.Driver. Favre is a libra and that back field would gel with uncanny results (All air element). I'm a pisces myself (H.Ward, Big Ben, C.Gamble, M.Faulk, R.Bush and even Shaq are some). Many I'm sure are balking at the astrological statement but without getting off the subject... knowing even lil details like that has won me hundreds in NFL betting. Even though I'm not much into gambleing. I only go with locks. Back to the details...
We absolutely cannot go into this season with what we currently have in the back field and put all the weight on Favre (after a 72.7 rate season) who'll be turning 38 not to long after the season gets started. The way they can do this (thanks to two Pats 1st rounders) without hurting our draft stance to much would be to take our mid 2nd rounder and our 5th rounder (or 4th if the Pats decline 1st offer) and trade them to the Pats for their 28th overall in the 1st. Now' we're in real position to grab Turner with that 28th overall, combined obviously with our mid 3rd rounder, all the while not giving up our 16th overall whom we absolutely should grab T.Ginn Jr. (Or freakish size D.Jarrett (6'4"/220 R.Moss size) if Ginn's gone). Now understand... I'm very high on Jennings but the only reason I say to grab Ginn is not only to steal the best player available (with a draft deep at WR) but Driver and all his greatness is now 32 for all of you who don't know. Plus this makes us deep at WR should someone get injured. Plus a silly goOd return man the Pack haven't had for as long as I can remember. Plus I smell Ginn WR screens... "sike" deep to singled up Jennings all day long.
The last time they decided to go with strength and speed upside rather than overall ability (and when my heart sunk into my stomach) was when the Pack went with A.Carroll over C.Gamble (also outta Ohio St. ironically), and we know the outcome of that show.
To make up for now not haveing a pick after we grab Ginn... all the way through the 4th or 5th round there's obviously one more thing on mOst Packer fans agenda and that's to trade KGB. I absolutely believe that KGB should not be involved in a player deal but instead be dealt for draft picks to the highest bidder. This way (because of KGB's outrageous salary) for not even an every down player we'll get the highest possible pick offered. In essence' the mOst bang for the buck. So now we're not subjegated to accept less than what he's worth since he'd be available to anyone who wants him. Also... one last note. Anyone notice how many DL is slated to go in the 1st round? Or for that matter... the top half of the 1st? There's alot of teams that'd love to have KGB I'm sure... especially in the top half of the draft to put themselves in position to trade down if they should choOse to do so with that base covered via trade. ~PeAcE~

Sorry, your post made my eyes cross (still welcome aboard )

But I didn't get past the suggestion that because we screwed up and went with the guy with amazing athletic ability at the time (Carroll) over the football player (Gamble).....we should take Ted Ginn?

Even though it's a poor comparison (Gamble was regarded as a project back then), it's a terrible comparison. Ted Ginn is a track star in football pads. What football ability does he possess?

[craig]

LB raises the issue of trading KGB, not in a trade for a contract but in a trade for a draft pick.

How much market do you think KGB with his current skillset, age, and contract could command?

Could you get a 4th or even 3rd round pick for him? Or is his contract more the stuff that could snag no more than a 6th round pick?

And, in the event that they did trade him, would that put any pressure on TT to reach the salary minimum? In other words, would it be possible to trade KGB for just a draft pick? Or for cap-minimum reasons would any KGB deal likely require that we picked up some sizable contract elsewhere, whether in KGB deal or in some other pickup?

[Neusch23]

I disagree with the notion of trading later round picks. This is where good teams are built and bad teams are born.

If you can land starting quality players in the later rounds though hard work in the offseason they will come much cheaper than trading for NFL tested players.

Look at some of our players and look at where they were drafted. Some of the all time greats were not picked in the first 3 rounds.

To quote Seinfeld, those picks are "GOLD JERRY, GOLD!"

[LB's Pack]

Well for one... Gamble's speed and strength upside wasn't so far off of Carroll's not to mention Gamble is 6'1". That's gonna give him upside in stride ability like taller WR's have, but in his case to play catch up. (R.Moss, C.Henry, M.Colston, D.Bennett and even T.Calico (who I thought we should've picked up) are some easy examples). Were at the same time Gamble's open field and ball skills are far superior entering that 04' draft and still are today. In 3 years he's got over 200 tackles, 16 INT's, 2 housed, 38 additional passes D'd, sack and back up return ability. Teams are already starting to shy away from him. Carroll came into that draft a better press coverage guy, but other than speed is really the only thing he had on Gamble. Next.

Track meet Ginn? Is somebody dissing Ginn Jr? The guy who's slated as the 2nd best WR in the draft after C.Johnson? Not to mention is slated as a top 10-20 guy in the draft outright in virtually any draft board you loOk at. All though I do think D.Jarrett will have better overall "WR" numbers after all is said and done. Next.

KGB is a guy that just needs to be dealt. He'll turn 30 a couple games into the season. He's the highest paid player on the roster behind Favre slated to rake in over 6 and a half mil this year. This accounts for ruffly 8% of Packer salary cap. So if the Pack gets anything well over the late 5th round he was originally drafted... I'm game. He's a OLB size guy playing DE off the bench on passing downs only because of his lack of conditioning and tackle ability. About the only guy he puts on his back these days is either occasionally opposeing QB's or himself weighing in a good 50 to as much as 100 pounds less than opposeing OL. Personally with so many teams not even haveing one solid pass rushing DE' I think we'll get more than mOst might think. Maybe even a late 3rd rounder. Which then we should address to safety, TE and then either DT or OLB and in that order.

One other addition: With the signing of F.Walker... I think that A.Harris should bulk up maybe 10 pounds and move to FS. He has more than enough strength, tackles and team scheme familiarity to play the spot and up in the box on FS blitz's makes me grin. Then with N.Collins at SS along side. Then... a great upside in speed, strength and even tackle ability in F.Walker would get the #2 CB spot with C.WoOdson easily handleing opp. #1 WR's. I also think that A.Hodge should get a shot at MLB moving Barnett out to SLB with probably the best hands in the league currently at MLB for Barnett. I smell several house jobs for Barnett if that move is made. He played LB and safety at OSU over here. With both of our current starting DE's being very well rounded and unusually strong for the position... a unusally strong Barnett and Hawk at OLB could easily hold point of attack, especially vs. sweeping runs.

[eagle13]

one other addition: With the signing of F.Walker... I think that A.Harris should bulk up maybe 10 pounds and move to FS.

Poor idea. There is a reason Walker came cheap enough for TT to sign in an off- season where everyone got a monster deal. We will be fortunate if Walker is a true upgrade over Dendy as a nickel back. I expect a CB to be taken as a 1st day pick. PLUS Harris is a top CB. Harder to find those than S.

As for KGB - he would not get much more than a 4th and probably less. He could still be more useful to us as pass rusher. Besides TT needs to spend and loosing KGB would worsen his salary issue.

Let's see 2nd day picks - Kampman-5th / Driver - 7th / Tauscher-7th / Jenkins - FA / Moll-5th / + past Packers - G-Timmerman-5th- ProBowl / C-Flannigan-6th ProBowl / G-Rivera-6th ProBowl / etc.

So 2nd day picks are valuable - still I find merit in idea of trading a 4th or lower for solid established players at times. They will never become star that rookie might but also proven to not be busts as rookies often do. For instance trading a 5th for KGB would be a pretty good move for a competitive team this year.

[Buck You]

Hey odie, good first posts. I agree with mostly everything you say and i hope we have a great draft this year. I especially want to trade kgb, he's my 2nd most hated packer behind stone hands bubba. If someone can take him off our hands i will be very pleased.

[El Duderino]

Track meet Ginn? Is somebody dissing Ginn Jr? The guy who's slated as the 2nd best WR in the draft after C.Johnson? Not to mention is slated as a top 10-20 guy in the draft outright in virtually any draft board you loOk at. All though I do think D.Jarrett will have better overall "WR" numbers after all is said and done. Next.

There are legit reasons that some teams may not be overly high on Ginn.He has spent his college career pretty much just running screens and straight fly patterns.He's yet to prove he can run good/consistant routes outside of a bomb and go over the middle.

As for Jarrett,very little reason to think he'll be gone before pick 16 after he ran such very slow 50 times.Unless he had a physical problem that contributed to his 4.65 40 times,i'll pass if we it's out first rounder at 16.

[ReasonablySober]

Track meet Ginn? Is somebody dissing Ginn Jr? The guy who's slated as the 2nd best WR in the draft after C.Johnson? Not to mention is slated as a top 10-20 guy in the draft outright in virtually any draft board you loOk at. All though I do think D.Jarrett will have better overall "WR" numbers after all is said and done. Next.

There are legit reasons that some teams may not be overly high on Ginn.He has spent his college career pretty much just running screens and straight fly patterns.He's yet to prove he can run good/consistant routes outside of a bomb and go over the middle.

As for Jarrett,very little reason to think he'll be gone before pick 16 after he ran such very slow 50 times.Unless he had a physical problem that contributed to his 4.65 40 times,i'll pass if we it's out first rounder at 16.

Ginn's got great straight line speed and he can make that one cut and go that makes guys into elite return men. But he's years away from being even a solid WR, let alone a great one.

As for Jarrett, I agree with Icness on the NFL board. His NFL comparison is Ernest Wilford. Good 3rd WR but do you want to give up a 1st for him?

[BuckPack]

As for Jarrett, I agree with Icness on the NFL board. His NFL comparison is Ernest Wilford. Good 3rd WR but do you want to give up a 1st for him?

Ernest Wilford never did to DB's what Jarrett did to NFL DB's this past season. Size and speed- I see the comparison, but Jarrett's body control and outstanding hands are FAR superior to Ernest Wilford.

Keyshawn Johnson is a far better comparison IMO, despite its hackneyed use.

[ReasonablySober]

-= original quote snipped =-



Ernest Wilford never did to DB's what Jarrett did to NFL DB's this past season. Size and speed- I see the comparison, but Jarrett's body control and outstanding hands are FAR superior to Ernest Wilford.

Jarrett was playing against future auto insurance salesmen. He's going to be exposed at the NFL level.

[BuckPack]

-= original quote snipped =-



Jarrett was playing against future auto insurance salesmen. He's going to be exposed at the NFL level.

What do you mean by "exposed"? That he's not the best WR in college football this year? i don't think anyone's arguing that. That he's not as good as Calvin Johnson, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Javon Walker, Roy Williams etc.? Again, I'm not arguing that either. But he ain't a #3, nor is he anywhere close to Ernest Wilford in terms of talent and production.

Sure some of the Pac-10 DBs aren't anything to write home about, but I'll remind you that Wilford was putting up his college #'s in the BE, not the ACC. And as I've said before, whether we think he's going to bust or not--which I do, Leon Hall is still regarded as the #1 CB in this draft, and Jarett destroyed him. But back to college...Dwayne Jarrett had more TD receptions last year (12-his lowest 3 year TD #), than Ernest Wilford had in his entire career (11). Yes Wilford played on some run-dominant VT teams, but he was their only WR option, and we can say the same abotu some of those USC teams. Jarrett has arguably the best hands we've seen in the last few years in college football--that's something that Wilford will never be confused with.

Will he have trouble getting seperation off the line? Maybe, but that will also depend on his hands and strength and not just his 40 time. People said some of the same things about Jennings last year, and he's proven to have much more deceptive speed than his 40 indicated. At the end of the day, I think Jarrett will be a very good #2 WR in this league. As I've said before, I'd prefer Meachem who I think will be a star, but I'm not sold on a guy like Bowe being any better than Jarrett.

[ReasonablySober]

I'm not talking about Ernest Wilford the collegiate athlete, I'm talking about Wilford the pro. Tall, skinny, great hands but lacks the speed and explosiveness to get separation or get deep.

The Keyshawn Johnson comparison would be a better one if Jarrett showed signs that he could be a possession WR at USC, but he made his living running sideline and corner routes.

As for Jennings, at the combine last year he ran a 4.41. Who's questioning his speed?

[BuckPack]

I'm not talking about Ernest Wilford the collegiate athlete, I'm talking about Wilford the pro. Tall, skinny, great hands but lacks the speed and explosiveness to get separation or get deep.

The Keyshawn Johnson comparison would be a better one if Jarrett showed signs that he could be a possession WR at USC, but he made his living running sideline and corner routes.

As for Jennings, at the combine last year he ran a 4.41. Who's questioning his speed?

I didn't realize Jennings ran that fast, butI do remember one of the knocks against him coming into the draft was that he wasn't "fast" enough and his level of competition. He was "quick, but not fast" and teams didn't know if he would be able to seperate in the NFL. Again, that's just my recollection of Jenning's "shortcomings," but perhaps I'm wrong. From watching him, I certainly think he's "fast enough," but I don't see him having an impact similar to the NFL elite, which is to whom people are comparing Jarrett.

But anyway, the reason why I brought up Wilford's college history is b/c that's the only way you can compare he and Jarrett at this point. As far as him projecting into a Wilford-like NFL impact, I'd disagree based on the clear disparity in their hands. Jarrett's hands aren't going anywhere regardless of the level of competition. If Wilford had Jarrett's hands, I don't think there's much doubt that he would be much better than a #3 in Jacksonville.

Yes Jarrett didn't run much of the possession type routes in college, but that's more of a reflection of the USC offense and his ability to consistently exploit the opponent deep than it a a predictor of what he can and cannot do in the NFL.

[ReasonablySober]

-= original quote snipped =-

Yes Jarrett didn't run much of the possession type routes in college, but that's more of a reflection of the USC offense and his ability to consistently exploit the opponent deep than it a a predictor of what he can and cannot do in the NFL.

But isn't that part of the criteria to which players are graded? The system that they run? Is there any doubt, at all, that if Dwyane Bowe was in that system that he'd have the same numbers? Or Meachem or Hill or Davis?

Conversely, if you put Jarrett in a different system, would he have the same success? I don't see it. That USC offense makes big guys like Mike Williams and Dwayne Jarrett look a lot better than they actually are.

[BuckPack]

-= original quote snipped =-



But isn't that part of the criteria to which players are graded? The system that they run? Is there any doubt, at all, that if Dwyane Bowe was in that system that he'd have the same numbers? Or Meachem or Hill or Davis?

Conversely, if you put Jarrett in a different system, would he have the same success? I don't see it. That USC offense makes big guys like Mike Williams and Dwayne Jarrett look a lot better than they actually are.

Of course it should be a point of interest, but I don't think you can say that just b/c he didn't run those types of routes in college dictates that he won't be able to succeed at that in the NFL. That's my problem with the point. The system may have inflated his numbers, but it should not type-cast him, particularly in light of some of his intangibles that are system-irrelevant (i.e. hands, size, body control, etc.)

Sure some of those guys would have put up better numbersat USC, but it's hard to argue against the offensive talent around Bowe and Davis, in particular. Yes, they're no USC, but it's far better than where some of the other guys come from. Personally, I don't think Davis and Bowe are as good as Jarrett, regardless of the offense they're in. Meachem, I think will be the best out of them all, but I don't see how Bowe is going to all of a sudden be a top tier WR while Jarrett will fail to be a #3. That's just not reflective of their track record thus far.

[LB's Pack]

[quote="BuckPack"][/quote] Ya' that's all here say mang. The thing is... people can't really compare Jarrett to a Wilford whole heartedly' other than stature mOstly because Wilford is on a team that not only emphasizes run 1st but the Jags really don't have a pass O lol. Doesn't matter which target you're talking about. There's alot to be said about coaching, scheme and even the guy(s) throwing to them.
As any of you know the mOst glareing downside to Packer game last year was three things... 1. Lack of total rushing yardage production Answer: Turner 6.0 career YPC. 2. Total points allowed Answer: U get a running game, U take your D off the field, get decent leads forceing opp. to be one-dimensional and further... shorten games. 3. Total points scored. People under-estimate what a guy like Jarrett would do for the Pack once down inside the Redzone, especially since we don't have much for any kind of TE. (Whom I really thought we should've grabbed D.Graham in FA for the time being). Jarrett's the kinda guy that Favre could just toss it 10-20 yards out over the middle and he just goes and gets it, fighting off would be play-makers for the ball... much like the burly Cards WR's do. As far as running routes... did anyone see Jarrett's last game? lol I saw the whole thing... talk about total skills on display. I saw him run a simple lil slant route grab the ball 1 on 1 and literally just flick the guy off of him and run around half the field for a score. Also... the only guy you could even compare to Jarrett's collegiante numbers is C.Johnson. There's alot to be said to about how much experience you gain when you're involved in not only that many pass plays in college unlike every other WR other than C.Johnson but the opponents Jarrett has faced in that process. I smell Boldin-esk roOkie numbers from Jarrett if put in the right position/team. Here's some career info for you all to review if you like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_Jarrett

One lil note about Ginn Jr. too... the last time I can remember Favre having a blazeing fast target at WR was waaaay back with Robert BroOks. We all know what Freeman and that tandem did.

[ReasonablySober]

Friendly suggestion my man: paragraphs.