Harrell

[BuckPack]

I want to prephase this by saying that it's wayyyyy too early to be making any sort of conclusions or even predictions about this kid/pick, but I think the latest news is certainly worthy of discussion and even pause for concern....

The latest news out of GB is that Justin Harrell's so far behind the other DT's on the team that he may not even suit up on gamedays--he's been consistenly beat in the 1 v. 1 camp battles by far inferior o-linemen, including CJ Blomvall and Tyson Walter to say nothing of Allen Barbre and Jason Spitz. That is NOT good for a #1 pick, regardless of whether he's still out of shape or not. There's no excuse to be losing 1 v. 1 battles to camp filler such as Blomvall and Walter. I know the kid's out of shape and perhaps even still recovering from his torn bicep, but he's being soundly outplayed by fellow defensive lineman Cole and Jolly, two players who couldn't hold his jock in terms of athletic potential (even tho I think both are very good players, Harrell has the ability to be Ted Washington).

Thus, it begs the question, even without Harrell, this team's best and deepest position is/was d-tackle. so why the hell did we draft him? If he can't even crack the top 4, and we're just trotting the same players out there that we did last year, shouldn't we question the decision to draft him? I applauded the "build through the d/o lines" strategy that Thompson has employed and wasn't a huge critic of the pick b/c I wanted to wait and see what the kid could bring to the table, but at some point perhaps we've reached almost diminishing marginal returns, particularly IF Cole, Jolly, Williams and Pickett are as good as advertised (no reason to think not).

If Harrell doesn't become a DOMINANT d-tackle, there's no reason to have drafted him, b/c the marginal production difference b/w he and Cole/Jolly/Williams may be minimal, unless he becomes one of the best DTs in the league. (On a side note, whether TT wants to admit it or not, I do think that Adrian PEterson's presence in Minnesota may have influenced this pick) End of the day, I think we'll long be discussing whether we should have taken the trade offer with Cleveland, or even trade down to mid first and selected someone like Greg Olsen?

I know it's very, very early and I don't want to jump off the ship yet....BUT, Harrell better damn well become one of the better players in the league at his position or else we could ahve wasted a prime opportunity to upgrade another, more pressing need.

[MickeyDavis]

At this point last year there were a ton of complaints about Hawk. He wasn't doing much in camp, didn't do much in preseason games.

Harrell may end up being a bust but I'll wait and see after a year or two.

[BuckPack]

At this point last year there were a ton of complaints about Hawk. He wasn't doing much in camp, didn't do much in preseason games.

Harrell may end up being a bust but I'll wait and see after a year or two.

I'm not meaning to imply that I'm impatient and am ready to throw in the towel....BUT, I will say that the Hawk pick was made at a position of clear need, while DT certainly was not. Hawk had flashes in camp and was a starter from Day 1...Harrell has not and will not. Now that's not to say he can't finish there, but he certainly has better players to "beat out" than Hawk did--again bringing me back to my point, that if he doesn't become a dominant d tackle, then I think we made a mistake.....

[LUKE23]

At this point last year there were a ton of complaints about Hawk. He wasn't doing much in camp, didn't do much in preseason games.

Harrell may end up being a bust but I'll wait and see after a year or two.

Pretty much my thought. He was essentially out of football for a year.

[ReasonablySober]

I disagree with the chain of thought that DT wasn't a need.

On our roster we had Ryan Pickett and bunch of guys that were nothing special. But even with Pickett, you'd never mistake him for Kevin Williams, Tommie Harris, Richard Seymore, Marcus Stroud or John Henderson.

I already posted the list of elite defensive tackles in the NFL. Maybe more-so than any other position, the great ones come from the first round. The above guys did.

Jolly has picked it up and looks like he could start for a number of teams. Williams showed flashes last season. Colin Cole was a guy you could throw out there for a play or two every once in a while. We have depth at the position. But we don't have anyone close to sniffing a pro-bowl roster. Compare that to other units:

QB: Favre and Rodgers - young 1st round pick
QB: No one was worthy at #16
WR: Pro Bowler in Driver, promising young WR in Jennings
TE: Could make a strong case for Olsen. No doubt about that.
OL: Three young starters and still have excellent talent at tackle.
DE: Just spent big money on Jenkins and Kampman
LB: Two first round, big money guys in Hawk and Barnett
CB: Still have two pro-bowl quality vets in Harris and Woodson
S: Certainly could have justified a safety in round 1

So the only two positions worthy of 1st round consideration there, other than DT, is at TE and safety. I liked Nelson a lot. Either he or Griffin would have made for nice additions.

But the great defenses have elite level DTs. We had none. We still might have none.

But Harrell could there and that's the reason he was picked.

So again, we had depth. But adding a talent there was certainly a need. It just remains to see if Harrell can be that guy.

[BuckPack]

Well.....

First of all, if Harrell becomes a Seymour/Williams/Harris then there's no argument here whatsoever-....but that's some pretty impressive company and I would be somewhat surprised if he did become one of those elite. Moreover, all of those guys were top 10 (top 8, I believe) picks in the draft--I believe Henderson and Stroud were top 12-13. So while Harrell may have dropped a bit b/c of his bicep, I don't think it's a stretch to say that they were more highly regarded prospects coming out than JH. As far as young d-line talents, I think Dorsey would have been in that group if he had come out, but I question whether Harrell is. Time will tell--I'm certainly not ready to jump off the ship, I'm just pointing out that he better join the Stroud/Henderson group at minimum (step below Seymour/Williams/Harris IMO). If he turns into another Ryan Pickett (mid first round DT), then it will be a WASTE of a selection. We have multiple Ryan Picketts on our roster right now and when you ahve holes at other positions, I'd question whether we needed to add another.


As you say, there are elite D-tackles and then there are solid, serviceable guys. We have collections of the latter (if not better---I don't think many pple here would have predicted Jenkins to turn into the player that he's become...or Kampman for that matter...so let's not say that Jolly/Williams cannot become borderline pro bowlers), and none of the former--superstars. But there's also a reason why DT is one of the highest first round bust positions--b/c teams reach for an "elite d tackle" that they think they need to find high in the first round, and that guy does not pan out to his draft selection. Also, I believe Detroit has two pretty damn good d-tackles, neither of whom were first round picks. So just b/c the vast majority of elite d tackles were drafted high, doesn't mean that if you draft one high (and 16 is not that high), that you'll get a dominant inside presence for the next decade. Now I'm not saying this will be Harrell, but if he only becomes someone like Pickett as I mentioned earlier, then we have a wasted pick IMO. To put him in the group of the elite players in the NFL would be a bit of a stretch at this point. If he doesn't join that group, then like I've said before, we have a problem....

As for other options, anyone from Olsen to Meachem to Nelson would have been fine selections. Maybe they weren't the best "value" at 16, but there was serious interest to trade into our selection (we know of Cleveland at minimum), so it's not a stretch to assume that we could have moved down a few slots and picked up one of the aforementioned players plus depth elsewhere....or even traded up and grabbed one of the elite RBs.

All in all, I don't think we lacked needs--this team had WR, TE and RB concerns before the draft, and you can certainly make the case that we still do (WR the least of those 3 if Jones continues his play). So, to say that DT was anywhere in that group of 3 is a bit of a stretch--Kampman was a pro bowler who led the league in sacks; Jenkins had a big year and a big contract; Williams, Jolly and Cole were all promising young DTs; Pickett proved to be a very solid starter etc. You don't think that position grouping was better than Driver-Jennings? Or Franks-sh*t? Or Manuel-Underwood? D-Tackle was at minimum 4th on the list of improvement.

So all I'm saying is that Harrell better become one of the group you mentioned, or else it will be a waste of a selection b/c we already had solid d tackles.

[ReasonablySober]

WR was certainly less of a need. At least we have a legit Pro-Bowl target at the position. Jennings was also looking like a 1000 yard producer before his injury, and that's playing a position in which I believe we've only seen three 1000 yard rookie WRs in the last seven to eight years. Nobody was going to come in and supplant Jennings as a starter. Hell, Jones has been the best rookie WR in the league thus far and even he's not going to start.

RB is certainly a concern. But then again, there wasn't anyone worth taking in the first round at #16.

TE and S, like I said, you can justify.

But Jenkins was the teams 2nd best DT last season, and he was now going to be a full-time DE. Jolly wasn't anything close to starting material last year and Williams didn't fit the system. He's also, like xTitan said, very inconsistent. Most of his sacks came in only two games.

A starting DT was absolutely a need.

Overall, I would have been happy with Griffin, Olsen or Nelson. But football games are won in the trenches. All things being equal you go with the lineman.

[eagle13]

I agree taking a DT as a high value pick IF Harrell did not have injury history and so much missed PT. Big red flags. TT rolled the dice. Give him credit for showing some balls. But I seriously question if that was the guy to take a chance on. I said since before draft - Trade down and get one of those other guys and taking a DT with the bonus pick. I hope Harrell develops it would be big plus.

[El Duderino]

If he pans out to be solid,even if he's not really special,i couldn't call it a waste of a first round pick.IMO the only wastes of a first round picks are busts.

With that said,if he ends up only being solid,i will have wished we drafted another position while still not feeling the choice was a total waste.We'll have a pretty good picture of Harrell's worth by some point next season.

Obviously it would be nicer to hear that Harrell isn't struggling vs camp fodder,but Jolley is an example of the leap players can make in an offseason.

[LUKE23]

To me, the play of Olsen, Nelson, and Griffin along with Harrell's play will tell if the pick was the right one. If all three are comparable, can't really say we made the wrong pick. If one of those safeties or Olsen turns into a stud, then we can second guess it.

Or Harrell could just become a superstar. I think we'd all be fine with that.

[deep throat]

I agree taking a DT as a high value pick IF Harrell did not have injury history and so much missed PT. Big red flags. TT rolled the dice. Give him credit for showing some balls. But I seriously question if that was the guy to take a chance on. I said since before draft - Trade down and get one of those other guys and taking a DT with the bonus pick. I hope Harrell develops it would be big plus.

this-the dudes, and buck pack are right on the money. i can't add to that great analysis. It speaks for itself.

[Ayt]

I disagree with the chain of thought that DT wasn't a need.

On our roster we had Ryan Pickett and bunch of guys that were nothing special. But even with Pickett, you'd never mistake him for Kevin Williams, Tommie Harris, Richard Seymore, Marcus Stroud or John Henderson.

I already posted the list of elite defensive tackles in the NFL. Maybe more-so than any other position, the great ones come from the first round. The above guys did.

Jolly has picked it up and looks like he could start for a number of teams. Williams showed flashes last season. Colin Cole was a guy you could throw out there for a play or two every once in a while. We have depth at the position. But we don't have anyone close to sniffing a pro-bowl roster. Compare that to other units:

QB: Favre and Rodgers - young 1st round pick
QB: No one was worthy at #16
WR: Pro Bowler in Driver, promising young WR in Jennings
TE: Could make a strong case for Olsen. No doubt about that.
OL: Three young starters and still have excellent talent at tackle.
DE: Just spent big money on Jenkins and Kampman
LB: Two first round, big money guys in Hawk and Barnett
CB: Still have two pro-bowl quality vets in Harris and Woodson
S: Certainly could have justified a safety in round 1

So the only two positions worthy of 1st round consideration there, other than DT, is at TE and safety. I liked Nelson a lot. Either he or Griffin would have made for nice additions.

But the great defenses have elite level DTs. We had none. We still might have none.

But Harrell could there and that's the reason he was picked.

So again, we had depth. But adding a talent there was certainly a need. It just remains to see if Harrell can be that guy.

I agree with all of this. I have mentioned it in other threads, but DT was the position I wanted even back when we were still in like week 10 of last season and we were doing the draft watch. Pickett is a solid plugger but nothing special, Williams isn't good against the run, and Cole is honestly average at best. That was all we had.

My dream would be to have a Jacksonville type DT duo with two big monsters that wreak havoc and allow Hawk and Barnett to run free. At least in terms of the running game, that is what the type of defense we run has always required.

[MickeyDavis]

In every draft there are players drafted later who turn out better than players drafted earlier. Certainly there will be players, probably a lot of players who turn out to be better than Harrell. That won't mean he's a bust. He has to be judged on his own merit and not compared to other players.

[mnstinks]

I want to prephase this by saying that it's wayyyyy too early to be making any sort of conclusions or even predictions about this kid/pick, but

I stopped reading here.

Yes, let's get rid of everybody who doesn't perform well there first month on the job, athlete or non.

[SugarRay34]

I was as big of Regggie Nelson fan as any on this site and would have loved for him to become a Packer. A position that I thought we needed and he was one player I believed could have come in and started and contributed right away. simply put hes a playmaker. However Harrell has loads of potential. Hes a big DT with great ability. I saw one game last year where you could have argued him being the best DT in the nation he was that dominant. Not only that he played through torn Biceps in a game. You really cant judge a player through the 1st month of training camp, many rookies have to get adjusted to the speed and power of the NFL. I will defintly give Harrell atleast 1 full season when hes healthy to show what he can do. Althogh if Nelson or Griffin, or Olson turn out to be studs I will probally be a little more disapointed

[BuckPack]

I want to prephase this by saying that it's wayyyyy too early to be making any sort of conclusions or even predictions about this kid/pick, but

I stopped reading here.

Yes, let's get rid of everybody who doesn't perform well there first month on the job, athlete or non.

well then maybe you should have read a bit more then b/c I never advocated getting rid of him--nor did I even insinuate that I would be any time soon.

next time read the whole thing before you assume my intentions. thanks

[BuckPack]

In every draft there are players drafted later who turn out better than players drafted earlier. Certainly there will be players, probably a lot of players who turn out to be better than Harrell. That won't mean he's a bust. He has to be judged on his own merit and not compared to other players.

of course he should be judged on his own merit, but that doesn't mean you can't criticize TT for taking someone and passing on another (again, not tha tI think we should at this juncture).....I do believe Wolf has been heavily criticized (by himself as well) for passing on Moss to take Holliday.

[BuckPack]

-= original quote snipped =-



I agree with all of this. I have mentioned it in other threads, but DT was the position I wanted even back when we were still in like week 10 of last season and we were doing the draft watch. Pickett is a solid plugger but nothing special, Williams isn't good against the run, and Cole is honestly average at best. That was all we had.

My dream would be to have a Jacksonville type DT duo with two big monsters that wreak havoc and allow Hawk and Barnett to run free. At least in terms of the running game, that is what the type of defense we run has always required.

I don't disagree that it was a need, but I do think we had far more needs on this team than the defensive line. If he develops into something special, then it was a great pick. If he's just average, or even above average, then it was a wasted one as far as I'm concerned b/c we had far more pressing needs to improve this team.

[mnstinks]

OK

but he's being soundly outplayed by fellow defensive lineman Cole and Jolly, two players who couldn't hold his jock in terms of athletic potential

Thus, it begs the question, . so why the hell did we draft him? If he can't even crack the top 4, shouldn't we question the decision to draft him? ...b/c I wanted to wait and see what the kid could bring to the table, but at some point perhaps we've reached almost diminishing marginal returns

there's no reason to have drafted him,

or else we could ahve wasted a prime opportunity to upgrade another, more pressing need.

Sure seems like you are questioning the decision to have him on the team.

Much like Hawk last year, and Favre of yesteryear, people shouldn't be so quick to judge...