Elway > Favre?

[th87]

Whenever there is a discussion regarding the top QBs of all time, I often hear Elway's name come up before Favre's. I wonder why that is.

Yes, I know all about the Elway legend about how he could come back from 4th quarter deficits like it was second-nature, and mentioning anything like The Drive is synonymous with Elway's heroics. Maybe it's because he has these defining moments that people can look back on him fondly as being one of the best of all time.

Because when I investigate his career, I don't come away THAT impressed.

1. The myth of Favre's egregiously high interception total:

You may say Favre has thrown too many interceptions to be considered better than Elway. I beg to differ. In investigating, I looked at the pass attempt to interception ratio. What I found:

Favre: 30.36 pass attempts per interception
Elway: 32.07 pass attempts per interception

So clearly, the difference is extremely negligible. Next, I calculated the TD to interception ratio:

Favre: 1.527 touchdowns per interception
Elway: 1.327 touchdowns per interception

Favre blows Elway out in this regard. It is also noteworthy that Favre has 49 more interceptions than Elway, but has thrown for 120 more touchdowns!

2. Analysis of Favre's and Elway's statistical numbers:

A brief statistical summary of Elway's career:

TD Int Yards Comp%
1983: 7 14 1663 48
1984: 18 15 2598 56
1985: 22 23 3891 54
1986: 19 13 3485 56
1987: 19 12 3198 55
1988: 17 19 3309 55
1989: 18 18 3051 54
1990: 15 14 3526 59
1991: 13 12 3253 54
1992:10 17 2242 55
1993: 25 10 4030 63
1994: 16 10 3490 62
1995: 26 14 3970 58
1996: 26 14 3328 62
1997: 27 11 3635 56
1998: 22 10 2806 59

As we see, Elway often threw more interceptions than touchdowns well into his career. After his rookie year, the first occurrence is in year 3, followed by year 6 (equal in year 7), and year 10, which was a complete meltdown. The years in between are very close, in that there was no defining amazing statistical year. He finally started to get it together in year 11, which was a great year for him, and he was basically the only player on offense. Year 12 saw a decline, despite the arrival of Pro Bowler Anthony Miller. However, things started to look up in 1995. So what happened in 1995?

a. Mike Shanahan was hired.
b. Terrell Davis was drafted and put up 1100 yards in his rookie year.

It can then be assumed that Elway's career took off under Shanahan's tutelage, and with the game-breaking ability of Terrell Davis, arguably the league's best RB during that brief time period. Of course, we can't take Elway's amazing numbers away as a result of this, but it is interesting to note that his best numbers came when asked to carry less of a load, and having a great mind to guide him.

A brief statistical summary of Favre's career:

TD Int Yards Comp%
1991: 0 2 0 0
1992: 18 13 3227 64
1993: 19 24 3303 61
1994: 33 14 3882 62
1995: 38 13 4413 63
1996: 39 13 3899 60
1997: 35 16 3867 60
1998: 31 23 4212 63
1999: 22 23 4091 57
2000: 20 16 3812 28
2001: 32 15 3921 62
2002: 27 16 3658 62
2003: 32 21 3361 65
2004: 30 17 4088 64
2005: 20 29 3881 61
2006: 18 18 3885 56
2007: 6* 2* 861* 64*

In year 4, Favre's numbers have been absolutely monstrous. Favre has 9 entire seasons in which he's equaled or surpassed Elway's highest season touchdown total. That is nothing to sneeze at. After his rookie year, Favre has only had three seasons in which he's had more interceptions than touchdowns. There was that egregious 29 interception year. Why did that happen?

a. Favre lost Javon Walker, Donald Driver, Ahman Green, Najeh Davenport, Robert Ferguson, Mike Flanagan, Mike Wahle, and Marco Rivera from his offense, either due to injury or free agency. The loss of eight starters, four of which were Pro-Bowlers or close would have a tremendous impact on a QB's numbers.

b. To replace these starters, the Packers started Taco Wallace, Andrae Thurman, Samkon Gado, Scott Wells, Will Whitticker, and Adrian Klemm. Four of these players are no longer in the NFL.

It can then be assumed that on a team in which Favre was unnaturally asked to shoulder the entire load, he suffered statistically. Now could this be a result of his diminishing skills? It could be. But the more reasonable assumption was that his NFL-caliber supporting cast was replaced by an NFL Europe-caliber supporting cast. The fact that Favre, just a season prior (2004), enjoyed a monster statistical season seems to bear this out. People generally do not lose their skills in one season. It appears that Favre was simply forced to gamble just to keep the games close (to make up for his supporting cast), and as can be seen, the results were poor. His "sudden resurgence" is not at all surprising; he simply now has a good defense and pretty good receivers to rely on.

How about the playoffs? Favre has thrown for 34 touchdowns and 26 interceptions, while amassing 4902 yards. Elway has 27 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, and 4964 yards.

In sum, Favre's statistics have dwarfed those of Elway, and Favre comes out ahead in every statistical category. Even the interceptions (for which Favre has built a reputation) are not egregiously higher in number (given the production) than Elway's.

Rushing? Elway has 3407 rushing yards and 33 touchdowns. Favre has 1771 yards and 13 touchdowns. Elway has an advantage there, but is it really enough to catapult him in front of Favre?

3. Analysis of Favre's and Elway's careers:

For Elway:

1983: Rookie year in which Elway played in 11 games. The Broncos (9-7) played in Wild Card game, in which they were blown out by the 9-7 Seattle Seahawks.

1984: Broncos went 13-3, but lost to a 9-7 Steelers squad, who ended up losing to the Dolphins in the AFC Championship game.

1985: Broncos went 11-5, but did not reach the playoffs, because of a very strong AFC East.

1986: Broncos went 11-5, beating the 11-5 New England Patriots, and then the 12-4 Cleveland Browns (coached by the star-crossed Schottenheimer). They then got hammered by the New York Giants in the Super Bowl.

1987: Broncos went 10-4-1, beating the 9-6 Houston Oilers, and the 10-5 Cleveland Browns. They were blown out by the Redskins in the Super Bowl.

1988: Broncos went 8-8.

1989: Broncos went 11-5, beating the 9-7 Steelers, and the 9-6-1 Browns to reach the Super Bowl. There, they were crushed 55-10 by the 49ers juggernaut.

1990: Broncos went 5-11.

1991: Broncos went 12-4, beating a very good 11-5 Oilers team, and then losing to the Buffalo Bills in the AFC Championship Game.

1992: Broncos went 8-8.

1993: Broncos went 9-7, losing to the 10-6 Raiders, who eventually lost to the Bills in the AFC Championship.

1994: Broncos went 7-9.

1995: Broncos went 8-8.

1996: Broncos went 13-3, losing to the 9-7 Jacksonville Jaguars, who lost to the Patriots in the AFC Championship.

1997: Broncos went 12-4, beating the 11-5 Jaguars, the 13-3 Chiefs (poor Schottenheimer), the 11-5 Steelers, and then beating the 13-3 Packers in the Super Bowl.

1998: Broncos went 14-2, destroying very good Dolphins, Jets, and Falcons squads to win the Super Bowl.

So in sum, Elway's teams have made the playoffs in 10 seasons. He has 11 winning seasons. 5 non-winning seasons. He has a very good 14-8 playoff record, owing to the fact that generally once the Broncos made the playoffs, they usually made it to the Super Bowl. This is certainly to Elway's credit - he came up big in big games.

However, it would be wrong to ignore the fact that the AFC was far, far weaker than the NFC. Therefore, it would have been much easier for Elway to advance, as he faced lesser teams. Indeed, the Broncos were able to dispatch relatively inferior teams to make it to their Super Bowls, only to get destroyed by the NFC representatives. Given the lopsided scores, and the amount of times it happened, it is safe to say that Elway enjoyed success in a weaker conference. Of course, this doesn't take away from his accomplishments, but given the circumstances, it is doubtful that he would have been able to achieve as much success playing the Giants, Redskins, Cowboys, 49ers, Rams, Bears, and Eagles of the NFC.

For Favre:

1992: The Packers went 9-7.

1993: The Packers went 9-7, beating the 10-6 Detroit Lions, and then losing to the eventual Super Bowl champion Cowboys.

1994: The Packers again went 9-7, beating the 9-7 Lions, and losing to the 12-4 Cowboys, who lost to eventual Super Bowl winner San Francisco in the NFC Championship.

1995: The Packers went 11-5, beating the 9-7 Falcons, the 11-5 49ers, and then losing the NFC Championship to the Dallas Cowboys, who eventually went on to beat the Steelers in the Super Bowl.

1996: The Packers went 13-3, beating the 12-4 49ers and 12-4 Carolina Panthers, en route to winning the Super Bowl against the New England Patriots.

1997: The Packers went 13-3, beating the 10-6 Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the 13-3 49ers, and then lost to Denver in the Super Bowl.

1998: The Packers went 11-5, losing to the 12-4 49ers in the playoffs.

1999: The Packers went 8-8.

2000: The Packers went 9-7.

2001: The Packers went 12-4, beating the 12-4 49ers, and then losing to the 14-2 Rams juggernaut in the playoffs.

2002: The Packers went 12-4, being upset by the Atlanta Falcons.

2003: The Packers went 10-6, beating the 10-6 Seattle Seahawks, and then losing (in embarrassingly improbable fashion) to the 12-4 Eagles.

2004: The Packers went 10-6, losing to the Minnesota Vikings in the playoffs.

2005: The Packers went 4-12.

2006: The Packers went 8-8.

Favre has 12 winning seasons, 3 non-winning seasons. He has an 11-9 playoff record. However, Favre has faced better playoff competition, facing Dallas and San Francisco in their heydays, and then meeting the Greatest Show on Turf on another occasion. Recent playoff appearances have not been as successful, owing to a number of factors, including poor Favre performances, a fluke 4th and 26 play, injuries to receivers, and injuries to defense on another occasion. Of course, these are not excuses, but they paint a more complete picture. Elway also had to deal with poor playoff performances, albeit earlier in his career. Later on, as mentioned before, his team was markedly better than Favre's, so Elway was able to ride his juggernaut team, win, and ride off into the sunset. Favre has not had the luxury of a Terrell Davis, etc. in his recent playoff years.
___

So in conclusion, I don't see how Elway would be considered better than Favre all-time. Elway has had poor playoff performances, and could not win the big one until getting a Hall-of-Fame caliber RB (injury notwithstanding) and a very strong supporting cast otherwise. Elway also beat up on comparatively weak AFC teams in the regular season and playoffs, only to get absolutely destroyed by the NFC representative in the Super Bowl. This tells me that he did not face particularly great competition during his earlier years.

Whereas Favre had to deal with teams that eventually ended up winning the Super Bowl (Elway has never done that). Favre has also had poor playoff performances, but this too had something to do with a not-so-strong supporting cast. When he had the luxury of a better supporting cast, he also won the Super Bowl (while posting better numbers doing so). He's had to face and beat better NFC teams (NFC teams had won a decade worth of Super Bowls in a row).

Therefore, Elway's playoff success is slightly overrated historically, whereas Favre's is underrated. I'd then put them at similar standings in terms of post-season performance.

However, when it comes down to statistics and records, Favre absolutely destroys Elway's numbers in nearly every category. With wins and winning seasons, Favre also has the advantage. With attempts, completions, touchdowns, and yards, it's not even close. And Favre enjoys a far better TD/Int ratio.

Ergo, Favre is the better quarterback all-time, in my opinion.

[LUKE23]

I think most people have Favre ahead of Elway. Favre's numbers are significantly better, wins are about even, and Elway has one more SB. The fact that he appeared in five to Favre's two just doesn't do it for me, wins are what matter. Really, what's the difference between making the NFC Championship and making the SB and not winning? Not much, one game, you don't come away with the title.

[paulpressey25]

I think Favre is greater than Elway, but I'm not sure he'd win if you asked national writers to vote.....

It all depends on what your most RECENT perception is......for Elway it is him "winning" two Super Bowls......for Favre it is chucking stupid interceptions in playoff games and the regular season while not retiring.

But people forget Elway's underachievement and chucking because of those last two Super Bowls he was part of.....

Favre has to have a massive comeback season this year and go far in the playoffs, maybe make/win another Super Bowl to clearly put himself ahead of Elway in the mind of a bunch of writers.

The other problem Favre had was that he was given a ground game in 2002 and 2003 similar to what Elway got his last two-years. But whether it was Favre's mistakes, Shermans bad coaching or an average defense, Favre was not able to get the results Elway got with Terrell Davis.

Part of that was Favre's fault because he did throw some brain melt interceptions in those playoff games (Eagles, Falcons, etc.) that he didn't need to throw.

[InsideOut]

I feel you are using a lot of meaningless stats, opinions and biases to justify an improvable point. The facts that support Favre you feel are significant while the facts that support Elway you dismiss or feel are tainted. An Elway's supporter may feel the opposite of you in terms of what is important. Favre has bigger stats because he played in a west coast offense while Elway played most of his career under the run orientated Reeves offense. When Reeves left at the end of 1992 Elway

[LUKE23]

Favre ranks 15th all-time in regular season QB rating, 14th all-time in postseason QB rating. You can't just pick out 2 full postseasons to try and justify a point. The point is he's been just as good overall in the postseason as regular season overall.

Elway, by comparison, is 37th all-time in regular season QB rating, couldn't find where he was overall in the postseason, but he did have 27 TD/21 INT, so he can't be much better than Favre, if better at all.

[th87]

I think Favre is greater than Elway, but I'm not sure he'd win if you asked national writers to vote.....

It all depends on what your most RECENT perception is......for Elway it is him "winning" two Super Bowls......for Favre it is chucking stupid interceptions in playoff games and the regular season while not retiring.

But people forget Elway's underachievement and chucking because of those last two Super Bowls he was part of.....

Favre has to have a massive comeback season this year and go far in the playoffs, maybe make/win another Super Bowl to clearly put himself ahead of Elway in the mind of a bunch of writers.

The other problem Favre had was that he was given a ground game in 2002 and 2003 similar to what Elway got his last two-years. But whether it was Favre's mistakes, Shermans bad coaching or an average defense, Favre was not able to get the results Elway got with Terrell Davis.

Part of that was Favre's fault because he did throw some brain melt interceptions in those playoff games (Eagles, Falcons, etc.) that he didn't need to throw.

Agree completely. I made this exact same point in the General Board.

[th87]

I feel you are using a lot of meaningless stats, opinions and biases to justify an improvable point. The facts that support Favre you feel are significant while the facts that support Elway you dismiss or feel are tainted. An Elway's supporter may feel the opposite of you in terms of what is important. Favre has bigger stats because he played in a west coast offense while Elway played most of his career under the run orientated Reeves offense. When Reeves left at the end of 1992 Elway

[InsideOut]

Favre ranks 15th all-time in regular season QB rating, 14th all-time in postseason QB rating. You can't just pick out 2 full postseasons to try and justify a point. The point is he's been just as good overall in the postseason as regular season overall.

Elway, by comparison, is 37th all-time in regular season QB rating, couldn't find where he was overall in the postseason, but he did have 27 TD/21 INT, so he can't be much better than Favre, if better at all.

The QB rating between Elway and Favre is meaningless to me. Elway had a QB rating of roughly 73 under Reeves. When Reeves left his average QB rating jumped to 89. Elway had a higher QB rating under the west coast offense than Favre did. Elway was just more consistant. Favre would be great one game and throw 4 picks the next. I don't like that in a QB.

The reason Elway was better in the post season doesn't have much to do with stats. It's about him winning games and coming up with the big drives or plays. But more importantly it's about him not throwing 4 or 6 INTs in a game or throwing up a jump ball in OT and completely desroying his teams chances of winning.

[Neusch23]

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The QB rating between Elway and Favre is meaningless to me. Elway had a QB rating of roughly 73 under Reeves. When Reeves left his average QB rating jumped to 89. Elway had a higher QB rating under the west coast offense than Favre did. Elway was just more consistant. Favre would be great one game and throw 4 picks the next. I don't like that in a QB.

The reason Elway was better in the post season doesn't have much to do with stats. It's about him winning games and coming up with the big drives or plays. But more importantly it's about him not throwing 4 or 6 INTs in a game or throwing up a jump ball in OT and completely desroying his teams chances of winning.

INT's have always been Favres heal. Over his career though per passing attempt he really wasn't much worse than Favre.

To me what matters is wins.

Even though Favre is a gun slinger he won, and is still winning games.

One can always argue that Elway was more clutch in the playoffs. He has more rings, and more appreances. I won't argue those points.

But when you look at the whole body of work it is hard to not choose Favre with more yards, nearly a third more TD's and Elway is 4th on the all time list, more completions, and most of all, more wins...which is what makes the more INT's nearly a moot point in this discussion.

Favre won one super bowl, Elway two....but how many did elway loose as well?

Both are great QB's, top 5 of all time...but Favre is better.

[InsideOut]

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Elway's also had some horrendous playoff performances. Most notably in four Super Bowls.

He beat up on the weak AFC, only to get outclassed badly by the NFC every time he went. So can that really constitute a guy who put a team on his back to win it all? No, I don't think so. A guy that got embarrassed by an entire conference for an entire decade should have that fact on his record.

Elway's had his defining moments, like "The Drive" and all that. But they would've meant a lot more if they came during the Super Bowl.

Not to say Favre hasn't had some meltdowns. He certainly has. But the Elway supporters trump up his defining moments while ignoring the Super Bowl drubbings and comparatively paltry statistics.

If we look at it all together, I think Favre comes out ahead.

Let me spin your comments this way. While Elway did have some bad playoff games they weren't anywhere near as bad as Favre's.

You see taking an average team to 3 Super Bowls in 4 years and getting beat by much better teams as a bad thing. I see going to 3 Super Bowls in 4 years as a positive. Was Jordan a loser because he couldn

[LUKE23]

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The QB rating between Elway and Favre is meaningless to me. Elway had a QB rating of roughly 73 under Reeves. When Reeves left his average QB rating jumped to 89. Elway had a higher QB rating under the west coast offense than Favre did. Elway was just more consistant. Favre would be great one game and throw 4 picks the next. I don't like that in a QB.

The reason Elway was better in the post season doesn't have much to do with stats. It's about him winning games and coming up with the big drives or plays. But more importantly it's about him not throwing 4 or 6 INTs in a game or throwing up a jump ball in OT and completely desroying his teams chances of winning.

Well, instead of going by your non-justifiable jargon, I'm going to go by the numbers. Favre has a +8 TD/INT ratio, Elway is +6 in the postseason. And you have no numbers to prove that Elway had "better numbers under the WC O than Favre did". That's asinine. Favre is over 20 spots higher all-time, so I am going to have to call your bluff on that one.

And regarding postseason, Elway was 14-8, Favre is 11-9. So Elway is better, but it's not like he's light years ahead. He won one more SB.

[KronDon]

Not to mention that when Elway smiles it reminds everyone of either Flipper the Dolphin or Mr. Ed.

[InsideOut]

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Well, instead of going by your non-justifiable jargon, I'm going to go by the numbers. Favre has a +8 TD/INT ratio, Elway is +6 in the postseason. And you have no numbers to prove that Elway had "better numbers under the WC O than Favre did". That's asinine. Favre is over 20 spots higher all-time, so I am going to have to call your bluff on that one.

And regarding postseason, Elway was 14-8, Favre is 11-9. So Elway is better, but it's not like he's light years ahead. He won one more SB.

Well instead of numbers (that can be twisted to mean anything) I'm going by the fact that I watched both players during their entire pro careers. Can you say the same? Yes, Elway won one more Super Bowl but led his team to a total of 3 more than Favre.

Well seeing as how you're calling my bluff I guess I better back it up. If anything this will demonstrate my point how numbers can be twisted to mean anything. When I said "better numbers" I meant QB rating. Favre has played in the WC O his entire career so his WC O QB rating is 85.2. Elway played in WC O under Shanahan 4 season with a QB rating of 89 and was better than Favre's 85.2 every single year. I find it pretty impressive in Elway's first year of learning a new offense he had a higher QB rating than Favre's career average. Now I realize that we can go back and forth on things like sample size, the definition of the WC O and a hundred other variables.

I guess this has been beat to death. I watched them both play and saw Elway come up big (under two coaches in two different systems) and win more meaningful games while more importantly screwing the pooch much less often than Favre. Favre is tough as nails and has all the big numbers (good and bad) and I respect the fact that sways you.

[paulpressey25]

Inside...I'm your same age...I've seen both guys play....and I was the one three weeks ago calling for Aaron Rodgers to start....maybe that brings more credibility to my statements, maybe less.

1) I don't think Favre has played in a West Coast offense while under Sherman. Once Holmgren left, he was thrown into a vertical passing game under Ray Rhodes that morphed into a vertical passing game/power running game under Sherman.

It's clear when you look at it, that system didn't serve Favre well at all. He's not as good a vertical deep passer as Elway, but he's far superior at all other aspects of passing.

2) In regards to Favre comebacks, I remember the start of the 1999 season when Favre literally willed a crappy Packer team to 3 wins at the start of the season, all come from behind jobs.....but granted those were regular season.

In the playoffs, the guy stung Detroit with that bomb to Sharpe in overtime in 1993......In 1994 he gutted his way past Atlanta in the playoffs, including diving into the endzone on that scramble for the winning TD with no time left.....

In 1995 he took an undermanned team out to San Francisco and executed flawlessly, knocking off the Super Bowl champ 49'ers....

In 1996 he made a bonehead interception in almost zero degree weather to spot Carolina 7 points in the NFC championship team, but then lead the team back with a great strike on a bomb to Levens.....

Later that year in the Super Bowl, he set the tone out of the gate on that bomb to Rison. New England counterpunched and came back to take the lead, when Favre hit Rison on the beautiful play down the sidelines to get momentum and the lead back when it looked like we might choke.....

Then in 1997, Favre took the punishment from a great defensive team in the form of Tampa to win the right to go out to San Francisco and outplay the 49'ers in the NFC championship. We didn't lose that Super Bowl because of Favre...he played very well. We lost that Super Bowl because our players were out in the gaslamp district to 4am the night before. Our coach imposed no discipline, because he and his sleezy agent, Bob LaMonte were working on a contract with Paul Allen to coach the Seahawks.

Favre has done some amazing things and things to me that far surpass what Elway did.....we've just forgotten about them because he's been playing so long.....

[th87]

Inside,

Elway's stinkers weren't as stinky as Favre's? I'm not so sure.

In the Super Bowl against the Redskins, Elway's line went like this:

14/38, 257 yards, 1 TD, 3 INT

Against the 49ers:

10/26, 108 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT

Complete and utter stinkers. And these are just the Super Bowls. I'm sure if I did a little digging, I'd find more. Of course, there's context associated with it, but since you won't use context with respect to Favre's worst games, I will refrain from it for Elway.

Favre's worst game? The six interception debacle in St. Louis.

What happened in it?

Remember the flip pass that Favre threw to Green, which he ended up running for a big gain on third down? That was negated because the referee erroneously called Favre down on a sack. Or the kickoff return TD negated by penalty? Not that it matters, but those would've swayed the game.

But forget all that, and remember this:

1. Four of Favre's interceptions were either tipped at the line, or by the receiver. This doesn't absolve Favre of blame, but two were tipped in the air by Green. This makes it a lot easier on defenders.

2. The fifth was Williams stealing the ball from Freeman. Does this absolve Favre of blame? No. But could Freeman have been more aggressive? Possibly.

3. The sixth was a result of Bill Schroeder running the wrong route. This is consensus, and has been confirmed by everyone close to the game.

4. Three of the interceptions occurred after the Packers were already down 31-10. Favre's ALWAYS been a chucker when down by that big of a margin. Is that good? Not always. But the one thing is that he doesn't care what he does when he's down. He won't protect his stats - he'll only try to force against all odds. Somewhat like going down swinging when clearly outmanned in a fight.

But all we'll remember is that Favre had 6 interceptions in a blowout. This, again, is not to exonerate Favre for having a bad game, but it wasn't as bad as it looks.

[th87]

Also, some of Elway's not-so-noteworthy achievements:

1. Number 1 all-time sacked quarterback, with 516.
2. Most career Super Bowl interceptions.

And these compliments of our friend KIAM:

1. Most total fumbles in Super Bowl history.
2. Most fumbles in one Super Bowl game.
3. Most fumbles in post-season history (14).

So hell yes, I think Favre's flaws are magnified and Elway's are glossed over.

[InsideOut]

Also, some of Elway's not-so-noteworthy achievements:

1. Number 1 all-time sacked quarterback, with 516.
2. Most career Super Bowl interceptions.

And these compliments of our friend KIAM:

1. Most total fumbles in Super Bowl history.
2. Most fumbles in one Super Bowl game.
3. Most fumbles in post-season history (14).

So hell yes, I think Favre's flaws are magnified and Elway's are glossed over.

Another example of how numbers can be twisted. When you play in 5 Super Bowls (who else has?) is it any surprise you'll have bigger numbers...both good and bad.

I don't want to say much about your other post as in my experience this is where things start to get nasty in Favre debates. I'll just leave it at this. Favre diehards have a history of excusing away all his mistakes. You did a masterful job of explaining how Favre throwing 6 picks wasn't his fault and how he didn't cost the team the game. I'm sure I could find away to explain away Elway

[InsideOut]

In the playoffs, the guy stung Detroit with that bomb to Sharpe in overtime in 1993......In 1994 he gutted his way past Atlanta in the playoffs, including diving into the endzone on that scramble for the winning TD with no time left.....

In 1995 he took an undermanned team out to San Francisco and executed flawlessly, knocking off the Super Bowl champ 49'ers....

In 1996 he made a bonehead interception in almost zero degree weather to spot Carolina 7 points in the NFC championship team, but then lead the team back with a great strike on a bomb to Levens.....

Later that year in the Super Bowl, he set the tone out of the gate on that bomb to Rison. New England counterpunched and came back to take the lead, when Favre hit Rison on the beautiful play down the sidelines to get momentum and the lead back when it looked like we might choke.....

Then in 1997, Favre took the punishment from a great defensive team in the form of Tampa to win the right to go out to San Francisco and outplay the 49'ers in the NFC championship. We didn't lose that Super Bowl because of Favre...he played very well. We lost that Super Bowl because our players were out in the gaslamp district to 4am the night before. Our coach imposed no discipline, because he and his sleezy agent, Bob LaMonte were working on a contract with Paul Allen to coach the Seahawks.

Favre has done some amazing things and things to me that far surpass what Elway did.....we've just forgotten about them because he's been playing so long.....

That's a good list and brings back some great memories. I'll give you the Lions game but I don't think that Atlanta game was in the playoffs. I seem to recall he did that in Milwaukee on 12/18/94 and it may have been the last regular season game GB ever played there. His stats show they didn't play Atlanta in the 1994 playoffs but in the two games they did play Favre had 0 TDs, 1 INT and a 70 QB rating.

That 1995 SF games was my favorite Packer game ever. I wouldn't say GB was undermanned at that point but either way Favre played great and this was the start of his greatness. I also notice your list stops in 1997. I'll grant you Favre has done some special things in the playoffs. Would you agree with me that since 1997 the majority of the time he has been very disappointing in the playoffs? If you agree with me I'm sure you'll understand why I don't see him as a big game QB and that is why I rank him just slightly below Elway. I guess I just can't get past 5 Super Bowls in 12 years vs. 10 years of Favre's playoff fiascos. Hopefully this season put an end to those 10 years.

[th87]

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Another example of how numbers can be twisted. When you play in 5 Super Bowls (who else has?) is it any surprise you'll have bigger numbers...both good and bad.

I don't want to say much about your other post as in my experience this is where things start to get nasty in Favre debates. I'll just leave it at this. Favre diehards have a history of excusing away all his mistakes. You did a masterful job of explaining how Favre throwing 6 picks wasn't his fault and how he didn't cost the team the game. I'm sure I could find away to explain away Elway

[Neusch23]

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Another example of how numbers can be twisted. When you play in 5 Super Bowls (who else has?) is it any surprise you'll have bigger numbers...both good and bad.

I don't want to say much about your other post as in my experience this is where things start to get nasty in Favre debates. I'll just leave it at this. Favre diehards have a history of excusing away all his mistakes. You did a masterful job of explaining how Favre throwing 6 picks wasn't his fault and how he didn't cost the team the game. I'm sure I could find away to explain away Elway