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JS web article -

The article is on Pickett but it says what happened when he was out. Thereby saying what happened when Harrell got more PT.

[/quote]To get an idea of how important Pickett's role will be in that regard, consider when he went down with a groin injury against St. Louis, the Packers gave up a season-high 173 yards rushing. The next week, he sat out against the Bears and they rolled up 139 yards, the third-highest total against the Packers' defense this season.

Pickett's first game back was last week, and the Seahawks were held to 73 yards below their season average. [quote]

Also in Hawks game Justin got a tackle that was a result of Corey penetration that forced RB right into Harrell. Harrell got credited with the tackle but had zero penetration and only got tackle b/c of Williams. I'm not attacking Justin - nor am I defending him.. Just the facts. Yes he may be good in time. Right now after a full season to recover and regain his strength and learn the pro game - he has not played at a very high level. And if Jolly and even Cole had not gone down he'd never even gotten off inactive list.

So while Justin still has true potential he has not exceled yet.

Pickett's been incredible this season. He's maybe been the most underrated performer on the roster.

But look beyond the numbers a bit. Not only was Pickett missing most of the game against St. Louis, but Jolly was out as well. That's both of our main run pluggers.

Against Chicago, yes they got 139 yards rushing, but they needed 45 attempts to get them. That's a terrible 3.1 yards per carry.

I don't see the point of this thread. Seems like an excuse to bang on a guy that nobody here is even talking about.

I think the only 2 positions where you can even attempt to judge an NFL player by his rookie year are running backs and kickers, where production is so heavily reliant on instinctive and god given ability, and even there it can be a stretch. There is such a steep learning curve to the NFL that for most players you really need 2 to 3 years to get an accurate look at a player's production and ability to improve. Consider solid rookie production a bonus, a positive sign that a player is ahead of the traditional learning curve, and an opportunity for a player to show flashes of what he may become, but not much else.

In your Harrell/Williams example, Harrell was probably just doing his job as a run-stuffing DT - holding the point of attack and occupying blockers so that others, either speedier linebackers or slashing/quick first step linemen like Williams can make the play. Ryan Pickett, who most agree has had a fine year for the Pack in the run stuffer role, totalled 39 tackles and 1 sack this year in 14 games, or roughly 2.8 tackles per game. Over his past 5 games including playoffs, when injuries to Pickett and others finally opened up some playing time for him, Harrell is averaging 3.2 tackles. If Harrell was routinely getting pushed back 2-3 yards from the line of scrimmage I'd be worried, but I don't recall noticing that this year.

Lest we forget, Favre wasn't even considered good enough to beat out Billie Joe Tolliver for second string his rookie year and went 0 for 4 with 2 picks. A few months ago Ryan Grant was buried on the Giants depth chart. Mario Williams was considered a bust with 4 sacks his rookie year and a potential pro bowler with 14 sacks his second season.

DrugBust wrote:Pickett's been incredible this season. He's maybe been the most underrated performer on the roster.

But look beyond the numbers a bit. Not only was Pickett missing most of the game against St. Louis, but Jolly was out as well. That's both of our main run pluggers.

Against Chicago, yes they got 139 yards rushing, but they needed 45 attempts to get them. That's a terrible 3.1 yards per carry.

I don't see the point of this thread. Seems like an excuse to bang on a guy that nobody here is even talking about.

Get off it DB. Its slow so I tossed out a topic. Where did I bang on him?

And IF everybody was talking about him then why start another thread? Best to start threads that are new.

Regardless - of course Pickett's great. And when he and Jolly went out there was a big drop. Of course JH is a rookie and lttle is expected of him and thats what he has delivered so far. He just has not wowed anybody yet either.

We saw a big drop for one game in which both our run stuffing DTs were out, and it just so happened to come against a guy who ran for 1500 plus yards last season.

Quick, get on the phone to John Clayton. He's going to wanna hear about this.

For being just one year older, and a 6th rounder, Johnny Jolly has shown that his career could be better than Harrell's.

But hey, having multiple good players on the DLine is never a bad thing.

I've thought Harrell has played well, but he's no Pickett when it comes to stopping the run. There is a huge drop from Pickett, Williams, Harrell to Williams, Harrell, Muir.

I've said several times in the last few weeks I've been impressed by the play of Harrell. If you focus specifically on him during plays, he has a good understanding of what he's doing, but he's still a raw rook compared to a Pickett.

DH34Phan wrote:For being just one year older, and a 6th rounder, Johnny Jolly has shown that his career could be better than Harrell's.

Its tough to say at this point. Jolly did nothing as a rook, but made a huge jump in year 2. I think Harrell could do the same and push for some of Jolly's PT next year.

They are similar players. Good size, good athleticism, impressive play recognition. I think Harrell is the better athlete though and thus has a higher upside.

Ayt wrote:Jolly did nothing as a rook, but made a huge jump in year 2.

Pretty much sums up why it's futile to start dissing a guy in his rookie season. Harrell's coming off an an injury year too...

Pickett is better than Harrell and I don't think anyone questions that at this point.

However, the rushing stats from the Bears game are misleading. Yes it was 139 yards (3rd highest total of season), but it also took them 45 carries to get it which is 3.08 YPC and pretty good.

Good article on Harrell - pretty much says what I've been saying - NOT bashing - the guy was under-whelming by rookie standards. but plenty of reason to hope for improvement.

http://www.packersnews.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 30560/1989

But concerned that 10 lbs is an issue for his performance in JS article. Isn't he suppose to be big? He's having issues at 310 - isn't Corey 310?

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=710264

Weighty matters: When he returns for the off-season conditioning program, defensive tackle Justin Harrell may look a little different.

In a discussion with defensive tackles coach Robert Nunn, Harrell said he thought he didn't carry his added weight very well. Harrell was listed at 310 pounds, which is about 10 pounds more than he weighed at the University of Tennessee.

"He's a little bit unsure what weight he wants to be," Nunn said. "He's carrying more weight than he ever has and he said he's not feeling quite as snappy. He said he felt a little more sluggish; that's the term he used. That's something we're going to look at."

Seems Justin has character and is hard worker. That's good. But I try and keep Cory around until that work & weight produces.

Regarding Harrell and his weight, I've always been confused as to why they would take Harrell if what they wanted was a massive run plugger. Someone to essentially keep guys off of the linebackers.

Harrell doesn't, nor has he ever, looked the part of a Shaun Rodgers, Pat Williams, Ryan Pickett type. A big reason that he was so effective at Tennessee was because of his athleticism. You look at the guy and he looks more like a massive DE in a 3-4 than a run plugger in a 4-3. He's got that Richard Seymour body type - tall and lean.

So if you're goal is to get a run plugger to occupy space, why take Harrell in the first place? You're telling a guy to gain a lot of fat, become less athletic and change your game. If that's the type of player they wanted, they could have taken Alan Branch.

I have news for everyone, Pickett was no Pickett, until he came to GB, with the Rams, Pickett was incrediblly under-whelming. I personally thoguht JH improved quite a bit as he got more playing time, thought he was very good against the Lions, along with Dan Muir, the big question with Harrell is going to be his health, then again that is going to be the same question with Jolley.

xTitan wrote:I have news for everyone, Pickett was no Pickett, until he came to GB, with the Rams, Pickett was incrediblly under-whelming. I personally thoguht JH improved quite a bit as he got more playing time, thought he was very good against the Lions, along with Dan Muir, the big question with Harrell is going to be his health, then again that is going to be the same question with Jolley.

Pickett had the same or better number of tackles while with the Rams. Regardless of that, if i remember correctly though, one big reason the Rams didn't try hard to resign him was they were in a one gap defense at the time and Pickett is much more suited for a two gap scheme where his job is to gobble up blockers vs trying to penetrate gaps.

Scheme is very important for these big tackles. In Sanders system, he's not going to trot out there some 285 pound DT on 1st/2nd down that thrives more on penetrating gaps than eating up blockers. For a team like Indy or Tampa that play a one gap scheme, Pickett is a poor fit for their defense, they want the smaller/quicker guys that slice through gaps.

It will be interesting to see what sort of weight they have Harrell play at next year. From that report in the paper, Harrell wasn't very comfortable with the extra weight. For me, i'd almost rather they let Harrell play at a lighter weight so he is quicker and can get pressure inside. I think the odds are Corey Williams will be left to sign elsewhere and he was the only DT who had pass rush ability on early downs. Sure on 3rd and long situations Jenkins moved inside, but if teams passed on earlier downs, we got almost zero inside pressure if Williams wasn't in the game.

If Harrell is turned into or just is mainly a run stuffer, who brings inside pressure inside once Williams leaves this offseason? We already have Pickett/Jolley as fat bodies to eat up blockers in the run game, plus Cole is decent at that also, do we really need another in Harrell? Someone inside needs to have the ability pressure the QB, especially given how much Sanders counts only on the front four to bring that pressure. We don't want teams sliding extra protection at our ends when they pass because they don't fear any of our DT's ability to bring pressure. Unless Harrell can fill Williams role as an inside rusher, we very well could enter next year with our only decent interior pass rusher being our starting DE in Jenkins.

That concerns me

El Duderino wrote:
If Harrell is turned into or just is mainly a run stuffer, who brings inside pressure inside once Williams leaves this offseason? We already have Pickett/Jolley as fat bodies to eat up blockers in the run game, plus Cole is decent at that also, do we really need another in Harrell? Someone inside needs to have the ability pressure the QB, especially given how much Sanders counts only on the front four to bring that pressure. We don't want teams sliding extra protection at our ends when they pass because they don't fear any of our DT's ability to bring pressure.

Exactly my thinking. Thats why I think its important we make every effort to re-sign Corey Williams or atleast draft a inside pass rushing threat.

Some stats in the paper today, the good and bad for Harrell

The Good---In 196 snaps he lead the DL in tackles per snap at one every 6.3 snaps

The Bad---In 196 snaps he didn't register a single pressure on the QB


To bolster my concerns about pressure from our DT's next year if Corey Williams is left to sign elsewhere, which i think will be the case. Pressures per snap from our DT's.

Williams--one every 37 snaps

Jolley--one every 66.8 snaps

Cole--one every 130 snaps

Pickett--- one every 292.5 snaps

Harrell---zero pressures in 196 snaps


Jenkins did have one pressure every 30 snaps, but that includes pressures when playing both DE and DT.

Despite his quickness, Harrell was never a pass rushing threat at UT either.

DrugBust wrote:Despite his quickness, Harrell was never a pass rushing threat at UT either.

I never paid any attention to him in college. If that's the case though and we let Williams walk as i expect will happen, who provides any inside pressure?

For a scheme that counts so much on their front four to apply the pressure and doesn't like to blitz, i'm concerned to a degree that we seem to be stock piling just mainly guys to soak up blockers at DT. Am i alone in worrying about this?

Just imagine if Williams goes elsewhere like most in the media think and Jenkins next year suffers an injury. Our two best interior pass rushers got a pressure once every 66 snaps and the other once every 260 snaps. If i'm running an offense, i'd double Kampman nearly every pass play and let guys like Pickett/Harrell/Jolley see if the can do anything more than try to bat down passes.

Despite the loss to the Giants most fans have a warm and fuzzy over the Packers surprise season. Because of that people are not apt to criticize Ted for anything. That said-

The fact is Harrell looked like a bust this year. You can blame that on him not being 100%, still learning, or whatever? It still doesn't change the fact this 16th pick in the 1st round didn't make sense to most when it was made and makes even less after year one. I'm not sure Muir didn't outplay him when he got a chance. Time will tell, but the early polls are in and Harrell showed next to nothing.

El Duderino wrote:I never paid any attention to him in college. If that's the case though and we let Williams walk as i expect will happen, who provides any inside pressure?

For a scheme that counts so much on their front four to apply the pressure and doesn't like to blitz, i'm concerned to a degree that we seem to be stock piling just mainly guys to soak up blockers at DT. Am i alone in worrying about this?

Just imagine if Williams goes elsewhere like most in the media think and Jenkins next year suffers an injury. Our two best interior pass rushers got a pressure once every 66 snaps and the other once every 260 snaps. If i'm running an offense, i'd double Kampman nearly every pass play and let guys like Pickett/Harrell/Jolley see if the can do anything more than try to bat down passes.

For whatever reason, the Bates defensive scheme has always been this way. With the Dolphins, they had two big pluggers at DT and expected basically all of their pass rush to come from the DEs. It appears we are basically going to go with an identical philosophy.

I don't know what the plan is, but it would seem to me that we are going to have to become a little more creative in our blitzing if CW is indeed gone next year. Maybe Jenks will bounce back and provide more pass rush when he moves to DT in passing situations next season.

Rad The Poet wrote:I'm not sure Muir didn't outplay him when he got a chance. Time will tell, but the early polls are in and Harrell showed next to nothing.

I'm not sure how anyone paying attention could think Muir outplayed Harrell. Muir was completely overmatched.

Overall on the season you could say Harrell didn't show much, but in the last several games I think he definitely showed flashes of his potential. He's very active and aware as a run stuffing DT.

As the stats above point out, he led the DL in tackles per snap, which is impressive since we have some guys on the line that make a lot of tackles. Its not surprising if you made a point to keep an eye on Harrell when he was out there though because he moves well and he generally follows the play extremely well.