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http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/app ... NTCAROUSEL

some sections of article -

"The issue isn't whether Nelson was worth taking with the Packers' top draft choice high in the second round (36th overall) in April.

The bigger question is whether General Manager Ted Thompson should have stayed put with the 30th overall pick in the first round and addressed some significant defensive needs."

AND

"Instead of trading out of the first round, Ted Thompson could have selected Clemson defensive end Phillip Merling, who is making waves with the Miami Dolphins. The 6-foot-4, 290-pound Merling is pushing veteran Vonnie Holiday for a starting spot and has recorded his first NFL sack on a team that ranks No. 7 in points and yards allowed. Considering the Packers' pressing needs on the defensive line, Merling would look pretty good in a green and gold uniform right about now.

The Packers' GM also could have drafted Virginia Tech cornerback Brandon Flowers, who became an immediate starter with the Chiefs and has 22 solo tackles and three passes defensed.

The Packers waited until the end of the second round to draft cornerback Pat Lee, who was inactive for the first three games, and like Jeremy Thompson, is a work in progress."

I know I and many of us were all for drafting a CB or DE (or OT) in 1st. Is TT afraid to draft high because he might blow it? Probably not. But it sometimes seems that way as he trades down so often. Some here say we have depth. I'm not one of them. Having a development prospect is not the same as depth. Having some prospects ARE important to future of team BUT having depth is having a player who can play well now. Coming into this season we had depth at WR & LB - that's it. Fortunately a good prospect in Tramon Williams has panned out when needed.

Personally, I have not been fond of any of TT drafts, but I have been proven wrong later, every time....So I am going to trust him.

I liked Merling. I was surprised that he fell as far as he did. Flowers is a great football player but he's got real character issues.

I think we won't know how good or bad the Nelson pick was until the Greg Jennings situation is handled. Most WRs need a couple years in the league before they really are ready to make a big impact. There's a good chance Jennings is dealt or walks and everyone knows Driver won't be here many more years. If Jordy steps right in the pick was solid. We'll see.

Well, as discussed before there is no way TT can forecast at which positions he is going to be hit with injuries, although as we have already discussed, age and some other factors at some positions should have given him some clues I think.

But I'm fine with him drafting for who he thinks will be the best players in 2-3 years, almost regardless of position.

I was also fine with him drafting for depth, although it apparently hasn't helped us that much so far get through injuries.

I was also for trading down constantly to improve competetion and depth, but as I pointed out before, there comes a saturation point where that becomes self-defeating and you just have to start cutting more of these draft picks than you would like--some just before they might start to perform.

Abdul Hodge could be an example of this, although who knows.

I went back to read some of the draft thread today.

Two weeks prior to the draft this was my Packers pick:

DrugBust wrote:30 - Green Bay - Brandon Flowers

DrugBust wrote:All of the offensive tackles will be gone by the time the Packers are on the clock.

All the tackles were gone. In fact a few tackles were taken ahead of Green Bay and were considered huge reaches.

DrugBust wrote:We have zero need for a WR unless a guy like Jackson falls to us. He could be a return guy/Wes Welker in our system, but I think he goes higher than most think.

So of course the Packers pick up a WR and his name wasn't DeSean Jackson. Later in the thread I mentioned that Jackson was the only WR in his class worth a 1st round pick.

DrugBust wrote:In terms of where the Packers are picking, if they simply wanted to get the best possible football player, I think you could look at a few guys at undervalued positions.

- Brian Brohm: Everyone knows how high I am on Rodgers, but with nobody behind him I think Brohm would almost too good a talent to pass up. Good size, adequate arm, great accuracy, lots of starting experience. Rodgers wouldn't be happy, but a little competition isn't going to hurt anyone. Best case scenario we never need to play Brohm, he looks good in preseason and mop-up time and in two years we deal him for a high first rounder or multiple pick.

He's looked bad but I have high expectations.

The Dude pointed this about Pat Lee before the draft:

El Duderino wrote:One CB i never thought about nor saw play is Patrick Lee of Auburn. The write up by McGinn about Lee made him sound like a great fit for our defense. Scouts quoted said Lee is good in bump and run along with he's physical and would do well getting his hands on receivers at the line. The knock was he only started for one season.

to which I replied:

DrugBust wrote:That's why I don't think he fits who Thompson typically drafts. He seems to gravitate towards guys that have started multiple seasons and collected various levels of All-American/All-Conference accolades.

Woops.

But that is a reminder about Lee. Great prospect but not a lot of experience. He's a pick that won't bare fruit for a couple seasons.

Once Green Bay was on the clock:

DrugBust wrote:Packers on the clock. Predictions?

Want them to take: Phillip Merlin
Think they'll take: Tyrell Johnson
Worried they'll take: Dustin Keller

It was interesting to read the opinions of the trade down and Nelson pick. Everyone here loved the trade and only one person, a non-regular, had anything negative to say about picking Jordy Nelson.

The irony is that if it weren't for a bad call by the official, Pat Lee would have had 2 passes defensed in his first real game action last week, I actually like Lee alot and think he is going to be a stud.

As far as Merling goes, why would GB draft a DE with the first round pick when they have 2 very good ones? No one expects injury, not to mention your 3rd and 4th DE's have gone down as well. The biggest problem I have is that they did not have another warm body to replace Williams, I would not have paid Williams either but Muir turned out to be a bust and Harrell just hasn't shown up yet.

xTitan wrote:As far as Merling goes, why would GB draft a DE with the first round pick when they have 2 very good ones? No one expects injury, not to mention your 3rd and 4th DE's have gone down as well. The biggest problem I have is that they did not have another warm body to replace Williams, I would not have paid Williams either but Muir turned out to be a bust and Harrell just hasn't shown up yet.

For the same reason they drafted Harrell in rd 1 when we had Pickett, Williams & Cole there plus Jenkins able to slide inside. Plus KGB was/is getting old.

DrugBust wrote:It was interesting to read the opinions of the trade down and Nelson pick. Everyone here loved the trade and only one person, a non-regular, had anything negative to say about picking Jordy Nelson.

I did not love the trade but was OK with it as I expected TT to do that. I did not love the pick but I also did not hate it as I knew nothing about Nelson. I did question the pick of a WR.

Nelson looks to a good WR and perhaps also returner. But a WR did not make sense to me at the time or now. I did not scream b/c maybe Nelson was bpa but the article shows thats not necessarily the case.

I HATE articles like this: coulda shoulda woulda. Plus, it's so wrong it's laughable.

First, realize that going into the draft, there wasn't really one player we could have drafted that would have started IMMEDIATELY. The entire draft was about depth and potential, and I think TT leaned a bit towards potential.

My take on the Jordy Nelson pick:

For those coulda/shoulda's, you do realize that either Chris Francies or Brett Swain would have been playing significant minutes with the injuries to jones/martin early on, right? Not only that, but driver is getting old and who knows what happens with Jennings. Jackson looks great now, but the reason we likely didn't draft him was character, as there were some serious questions about him during the draft.

For the "shoulda drafted a CB crowd": This draft class had a ton of CB's in it, and it looks like we got a keeper in Lee in the 2nd. Our secondary has actually played quite well.

For the "shoulda drafted a DL crowd": Not sure if I can argue with this one. I will say I think when Harrell comes back it'll solidify the DT position, but when you look at what we have behind Kampy/Jenkins (ie NOTHING) it seems this position should have been addressed earlier on. Thompson looks like a football player, but has never really produced, and can't be expected to do anything this year.

That article is bad IMO, because it is easy to say now who we should have drafted based on our current injury problems. Plus nobody anticipated KGB dropping off the way he did for the DE position. We got Montgomery and Thompson who are solid young guys who both have pretty good potential IMO.

I was a little perplexed we didn't draft a DT however, even if it would be a fifth rounder or whatever. Pickett is a high level performer, Jolly is solid, Harrell is unproven, and Cole is just okay but not bad.

I think Thompson has done a good job of drafting players mixing players with high potential with nonflashy but solid players. I think the 08 draft has some future studs for the packers.
Jordy Nelson, Jermichael Finely, Patrick Lee, Jeremy Thompson, Brian Brohm, Josh Sitton, who all have the luxary that Aaron Rodgers had were they don't have to start right away but once they mature in the system they will be very solid players.

By the way, I wish Finley would get more touches, he has Gates-esqe type potential. I love that pick. He can develop behind Lee who should show him the ropes and help him mature.

As others have stated with all the players drafted in recent years I have no problem drafting players that we can see 2-3 years down the road being special players.

[quote="ReddManBogieMan"]That article is bad IMO, because it is easy to say now who we should have drafted based on our current injury problems. Plus nobody anticipated KGB dropping off the way he did for the DE position. We got Montgomery and Thompson who are solid young guys who both have pretty good potential IMO.

I was a little perplexed we didn't draft a DT however, even if it would be a fifth rounder or whatever. Pickett is a high level performer, Jolly is solid, Harrell is unproven, and Cole is just okay but not bad.
/quote]

ReddManBogieMan wrote:That article is bad IMO, because it is easy to say now who we should have drafted based on our current injury problems. Plus nobody anticipated KGB dropping off the way he did for the DE position.

IMO your wrong right from the start. Its your opinion and your entitled to it BUT people can and DID anticipate issues we face now. Trading Williams and relying on Harrell may not have been an issue for you or TT but many of us DID see that coming. I think it was MajorDad who foresaw KGB's decline. Thats also why many of us wanted a CB who could impact this year. Harris and Woodson are getting old and Harris looked it against Giants. Harris' decline is inevitable. Lee may be good and probably will be in the future but he isn't now. Same with OT. Clifton was having to skip most practices last year already to preserve his knees and how many articles over the past years have talked about the effect of his devasting injury from Sapp years back. None of this is a major surprise. Some in-experienced people say its crystal ball stuff to see things coming in advance. No one who says that has ever been involved in strategic planning for business or military where you always try to anticipate. The age, past injuries and some poor performances have been pretty obvious red flags for our CBs & OT & DL for at least awhile.

Articles like this are laughable. It's waaaaaay too early to even been discussing the rookies. I agree that drafting a DT may have been a good idea, but that's not how TT operates. Jordy Nelson is a good football player and he's gonna be a great compliment to Jennings in the future. You guys seem to be on the same page as I am. I HATE the people who hate TT during the draft and love him after the season. If you jump off the bus, stay off the bus.

aaprigs311 wrote:Articles like this are laughable. It's waaaaaay too early to even been discussing the rookies. I agree that drafting a DT may have been a good idea, but that's not how TT operates. Jordy Nelson is a good football player and he's gonna be a great compliment to Jennings in the future. You guys seem to be on the same page as I am. I HATE the people who hate TT during the draft and love him after the season. If you jump off the bus, stay off the bus.

Hey guy - you are sooo missing the point. No one is evaluating or dissing the rookies' talent we picked. I agree that its too early to judge although to remind you I said Nelson looks too be good and that lee probably will be. And no one is hating on TT. People who have nothing intelligent to say and are incapable of having an open discussion always cry about TT hate. It is not hating TT to discuss his choices. Do you hate your kids or parents when you consider they might have made other decisions? The discussion was about whether other positions might have been better to select which lead to some saying you can't predict and me saying in some circumstances you can.

BTW I graded TT an A- for his overall performance so far. I suppose you think I'm a hater b/c I did not give him an A+.

eagle13 wrote:IMO your wrong right from the start. Its your opinion and your entitled to it BUT people can and DID anticipate issues we face now. Trading Williams and relying on Harrell may not have been an issue for you or TT but many of us DID see that coming. I think it was MajorDad who foresaw KGB's decline.

Both KGB and Williams have .5 sacks so far.

Mags FTW wrote:

eagle13 wrote:IMO your wrong right from the start. Its your opinion and your entitled to it BUT people can and DID anticipate issues we face now. Trading Williams and relying on Harrell may not have been an issue for you or TT but many of us DID see that coming. I think it was MajorDad who foresaw KGB's decline.

Both KGB and Williams have .5 sacks so far.

Well you prove my point with KGB.

With Cory - its been said numerous times by several people - trade Williams that's fine - but replace him - don't rely on Harrell. THAT's the point. But I will say in behalf of CW - he had modest success playing DT in a 4-3 with us. That's a world of difference from playing DE in a 3-4. I think even you can admit that. But I'll spell it out for you if you want. Cleveland made the mistake there.

How was TT "relying" on Harrell when he still had Pickett, Jolly, and Cole as DTs and Jenkins as a 3rd down DT?

Mags FTW wrote:How was TT "relying" on Harrell when he still had Pickett, Jolly, and Cole as DTs and Jenkins as a 3rd down DT?

You gotta be kidding Mags. Last year we had Pickett Williams Jolly Cole in regular rotation against run and even Muir got some snaps and Jenkins at DT on pass downs. AND we had Harrell sort of. Thats a rotation of 7 guys at DT. But forget Muir as he was basically insignificant. That's still 6 guys. Harrell gets hurt. That's still 5 guys. We were pretty effective. DL was supposedly strength of team. Subtract a starter - CW was the starter for most games - and your saying we were counting on just the rotation we have now? Even with Jenkins we were short handed at DT without Harrell - especially against the run where Jenkins never played DT. Your saying TT & M3 weren't counting on Harrell to be a big contributor? That runs counter to what coaches themselves said in early pre-season. Look up the articles yourself.

With just those three you mentioned - they are getting gassed and gashed. IF TT & M3 were counting on only those 3 against the run ... well that would be crazy as we can see now.

So either TT & M3 were crazy for relying on Harrell as I say.
OR
TT & M3 were crazy for relying on just 3 guys you say.

Doesn't matter which - either is crazy.

Last year:

Pickett, Williams, Jolly, Cole and Jenkins on passing downs.

This year the rotation was going to be:

Pickett, Jolly, Harrell, Cole and Jenkins on passing downs.

Either way that's five total.

Anyway, arguing over this is stupid. Bottom line is the whole defensive line is banged up big time.

DrugBust wrote::crazy:


Anyway, arguing over this is stupid. Bottom line is the whole defensive line is banged up big time.

We've only lost one starting defensive lineman to injury so far this year with Jenkins. Harrell got hurt way before the season started, but that shouldn't have been some huge shocker given his past health problems and the team knew he'd miss at least the first six games. Montgomery isn't much more than just a body.

I don't think Ted should be ripped to shreds over the defensive line problems, but he certain isn't without blame either.

1. KGB suffered all camp with his knee problems and he's 31 years old. As bad as he's looked in games, the team had to see in camp that KGB could have thus lost a step and speed is is only asset. Without great burst around the edge, he's worthless as a player.

2. Harrell had health problems before we drafted him. He gets hurt again as a rookie. He skips offseason work outs in Green Bay so instead he can pig out on moms cooking and gets out of shape. Should have been a red flag. Harrell proceeds to blow out his back. Was anyone shocked to hear he was hurt again? The team knew he'd miss at minimum the first six games and chose to keep only three DT's.

3. Pickett barely ever practiced in camp and didn't play a single snap in the preaseason due to a bad hamstring.

4. Jolly got arrested on a charge that was fairly serious


On the defensive line, the only problem that i can see that would be a big surprise to the team is the Jenkins injury. I guess they couldn't have planned on Montgomery missing some time, but if he wasn't a good special teams player, it's questionable if he's even worth a roster spot.

Going into the year, Ted left himself very vulnerable at pass rushing given his only guy who can pass rush from the DT spot was his starting defensive end, the aging speed rusher KGB was coming off a very slow healing knee problem, and he knew the uncreative defensive coordinator counts so heavily on the front four to provide pressure. Only carrying three DT's along with part time DT Jenkins left the line very vulnerable to overuse if any of the four got hurt or missed time during games. There really wasn't on the roster a quality backup to Jenkins at either DE or pass rushing DT. On top of that, Ted was asking Pickett to play more snaps than he's used to even though he couldn't be near game shape after spending all of camp/preseason watching. That's scary because that's how important players like Pickett can get hurt by playing a ton of snaps before being in game shape. Jeremy Thompson obviously wasn't close to ready and ideally the team would be best served with him being inactive all year.

So yea, there has been some bad luck, obviously the Jenkins injury being the huge blow. That said, depth on the defensive line was a sizable concern in training camp and as the season started because we couldn't just assume that the team could stay nearly injury free every year. The Giants lost Strahan/Umenyiora, yet have the leagues second best defense because they had quality depth on the roster. To be fair, they do have a much better defensive coordinator and i think the Packers hoped Jolly would have more impact than he has. TT has been on the job with 4 drafts, he IMO should have drafted a young pass rushing DE or two that could have hopefully developed by now. He went into this season quite thin on the heart of a 4-3 defense and prayed the unit would stay near perfectly healthy again, those prayers weren't answered and the backups haven't shown to be very good.