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Could not find past thread where we (DB & Dude mostly) discussed importance of CBs.

DB said CBs were most over-rated position. Also said even good CBs are toast if DL cannot pass rush.

Dude said both were important.

ITEM - Packers this season =
Top 10 pass defense
Very poor pass rush & sack total

Guess good CBs (and DBackfield overall) matter pretty strongly and can succeed even with crummy pass rush.

When Harris went down we would have been toast if another CB - Tramon had not proved important.

Of course you want DL to both stop the run & rush the passer BUT IF you had to choose - you might even say its more critical the DL can stop the run than rush the passer.

I think we all can agree a good pass rush is a vital key element but as with everything NFL - its a team game and all positions can make a difference.

I think a strong DL can carry your defense because it can stop the run and also stop the pass. A strong secondary can only stop the pass, and thats not even a guarantee. There are also good examples of a good secondary not leading to a good pass defense, like the Broncos.

Obviously you want both, but if can only have one, Id go with the DL.

I will say that the Packers secondary this year is better than the top 10 pass defensive ranking given the amount of TD's they have scored.

I don't think it is too hard to argue that our secondary is on par or maybe even better than our super bowl teams in the 90's. Those teams were good but this secondary has been even better IMO. However the DL on those teams was far better IMO and that's what made us one of the best if not the best defensive team in the NFL those years. Wasn't it in 97 that we gave up the least amount of points I believe? Kampman is very good and the overall line is decent but our pass rush is no where near that team.

We have the best defensive backfield in the league. Our CBs are incredible and Collins should be a Pro Bowl lock.

If we had a pass rush we'd be running away with the division.

The only thing keeping us alive right now is the secondary and at times the special teams. They are highly respected but I don't think they are overrated. That is the scarry thing is that we have this kind of secondary and we still can't even get to the QB, the only weekness we have is when we can't put pressure on a QB and he has extra time for someone to get open.

eagle13 wrote:DB said CBs were most over-rated position. Also said even good CBs are toast if DL cannot pass rush.

So. It sort of makes a difference when you're not going up against Chaz Frye, Kyle Orton, Gus Ferotte, Tarvaris Jackson and Jon Kitna, eh?

DrugBust wrote:

eagle13 wrote:DB said CBs were most over-rated position. Also said even good CBs are toast if DL cannot pass rush.

So. It sort of makes a difference when you're not going up against Chaz Frye, Kyle Orton, Gus Ferotte, Tarvaris Jackson and Jon Kitna, eh?

The corners tonight didn't really get shredded. On that first 70 yard TD, Woodson blitzed and Bigby got his ankles broken trying to tackle Moore before he turned a three yard pass into a long TD. Woodson did get beat on the 70 yard bomb to Colston, but that was a great pass by Brees while he was running to his left and hitting Colston perfectly in stride.

The Saints tight ends were eating alive our linebackers tonight, i was yelling for Sanders to take a linebacker out and put in another corner or safety. Of the 20 completions by Brees, 14 of them were to tight ends and running backs, the linebackers got savaged in pass coverage.

Yea the Packers have played some poor quarterbacks, but with that said, the Packers corners and Collins are the only reason the defense overall isn't ranked near dead last in all of football. Given how absolutely miserable the pass rush has been and sieve like the run defense has been all season, the corners and Collins are why teams aren't scoring at will. We also have to include all the interceptions and picks returned for TD's that inflate our points scored. Other teams have faced guys like Orton, Ferotte, and Kitna without as stellar of results as the Packers secondary and none of those teams could possibly have as poor a pass rush as the Packers do. There was also holding Peyton Manning to a 46.6 QB rating in that blowout even though he wasn't sacked once. Against Tennessee, it was bad run defense, screens to Johnson out of the backfield, and quick passes to the TE that kept drives going. In nearly every game the secondary has held the opposing quarterback to a lower QB rating than their average on the year, many times significantly lower, scored 6 TD's off picks, and did so with no help from a pass rush.

With a non-existent pass rush also season and Packer safeties often having to cheat and help stop the run, the play of the corners and Collins can't be understated. Put instead a couple of mediocre at best corners on the Packers instead of our group, we'd be buried in the division race given how terrible the front seven has performed nearly all season and the erratic offensive production.

Pass rush is by far, not even close, the #1 reason we are not winning this division BIG. We have what, one sack in the last three games combined? It's an absolute JOKE. Nobody can cover NFL WR's for as long as we're forcing our DB's to, and they are still doing a pretty damn good job considering.

We need a stud DE very badly.

I think our DB's are doing an exceptional job, but that's sort of the point. I think this team has the best collection of corners in the entire NFL and a pair of playmaking safeties that would make a lot of teams envious. And a good pass offense still rendered our pass defense an afterthought.

DrugBust wrote:I think our DB's are doing an exceptional job, but that's sort of the point. I think this team has the best collection of corners in the entire NFL and a pair of playmaking safeties that would make a lot of teams envious. And a good pass offense still rendered our pass defense an afterthought.

Some of that has to be put on Sanders and the linebackers though. Hawk got repeatedly burned in pass coverage by the tight ends. Chillar had a bad game in pass coverage against the Saints tight ends.

Sanders just sat there all game in the same base defense even though there was zero pressure from the front four and it was obvious our linebackers couldn't cover the Saints tight ends or runnning backs on screens. Their tight ends caught nine passes and many either kept drives alive or went for a touchdown, why not remove a linebacker and try a corner instead on the tight ends? Was Sanders really thinking that then the Saints would instead run the ball all the time if we played nickle the whole game? Per usual, not much blitzing and when we did, the bland blitz schemes got picked up.

AJ Hawk and Poppinga were on the field together a lot yesterday and neither guy has much ability to to avoid getting exposed in pass coverage, especially against skilled offenses that know how to get their tight ends and backs the football. I have no idea if Hawk's groin is still hurting, but yesterday he played a miserable game and looked like he was running in mud trying to cover Miller and Shockey. Hell, prior to the snap Brees could have told Hawk the pass was going to either tight end and i doubt AJ still could have prevented a completion.

DrugBust wrote:I think our DB's are doing an exceptional job, but that's sort of the point. I think this team has the best collection of corners in the entire NFL and a pair of playmaking safeties that would make a lot of teams envious. And a good pass offense still rendered our pass defense an afterthought.

That is a really good point. Other than the big pass to Colston, our CB's were lockdown all night. The safeties and the LB's got killed all game. The LB's were especially atrocious. Its been that way all year, but it was especially bad against NO.

Its kind of funny really. We are running a defense that asks a huge amount from the front four in terms of rushing the passer, yet we have one of the worst groups in the league in terms of providing a consistent pass rush.

I'm sick of the Bates defense. I really hope Sanders is canned and we can find an innovative coach to take over. I'm thinking MM will see it the same way this offseason.

Ayt wrote:

DrugBust wrote:I think our DB's are doing an exceptional job, but that's sort of the point. I think this team has the best collection of corners in the entire NFL and a pair of playmaking safeties that would make a lot of teams envious. And a good pass offense still rendered our pass defense an afterthought.

I'm sick of the Bates defense. I really hope Sanders is canned and we can find an innovative coach to take over. I'm thinking MM will see it the same way this offseason.

I'm with you and others who want Sanders gone, but i do hope that whoever took over, that guy keeps the man/press philosophy with the corners vs playing mostly zone in the secondary. Not only are our corners best suited for playing man, i don't care for playing tons of zone. It's the front seven and bland scheme that's sunk the defense this year, the secondary for the most part has been outstanding.