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OFFICIAL JOE TORRE HAS TO GO THREAD

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Post#21 » by 34Celtic » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:51 pm

Slamm Goodbody wrote:So grab a beer, smoke a joint, take a valium, whatever it is you need to do and chill the fu'k out.


While not the best advice, slamm may make a good doctor for some of you.
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Post#22 » by cmaff051 » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:01 pm

Slamm Goodbody wrote:Remember a couple of years ago when we had that sh'tty start, Jeter had that terrible first half, and we still managed to win the division? The Yankees will go on a huge run in the summer, like they always do, and will win the division.


How do you know that we'll win the division? One of these days we are going to get off to such a slow start that we won't be able to make up enough ground. Whether it will happen this year is yet to be seen. However, you can't just keep saying "don't worry about April, we'll make a run and win the division anyway". Because of these years it's not going to happen.

And people have been calling for Joe's firing a few years ago. The problem with Joe Torre is that he doesn't have the foggiest clue how to manage a bullpen. He plays too many favorites. Why is Eye Chart starting at 1B everday instead of Phelps. Why do many of his relievers routinely pitch 80-90 innings a year while his starters leave after 85 pitches. Why does Joe put the worst hitter in our lineup, Melky Cabrera, at the leadoff spot. Why?


People have been calling for his head since the 2004 debacle. This isn't anything knew. Joe's flaws have been known for a few years now, and looky here, they reared their ugly head against this year. This burnout of the bullpen could have been avoided by competent bullpen management.
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Post#23 » by 34Celtic » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:05 pm

cmaff051 wrote: Why is Eye Chart starting at 1B everday instead of Phelps. Why do many of his relievers routinely pitch 80-90 innings a year while his starters leave after 85 pitches. Why does Joe put the worst hitter in our lineup, Melky Cabrera, at the leadoff spot. Why?



Yes, because that is just what we need to do, score more runs. And our starters leave after 85 innings because they suck. We have had one competent pitcher who has not been injured this year, Pettitte. If you're going to blame Torre for all the injuries, fine go ahead. But don't say he should be fired for them. Who do you want to hit leadoff? Jeter, Abreu second and Matsui 3rd? Ok fine, give alternatives to what you are saying, dont just throw stuff out there. What would you do differently instead of bashing him. He doesn't have a choice. The only guys who haven't been hurt this year are Pettitte, the bullpen, Arod, Abreu, Cano, Melky, The first base tandem, and Ryan Freeking Thompson. Thats half our roster right there.
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Post#24 » by cmaff051 » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:48 pm

34Celtic wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Yes, because that is just what we need to do, score more runs.

Yes, we should make an attempt to score less runs!!! Let's start a very bad offensive player when we have a better offensive player on the bench because we score enough runs already!!

Score less runs... sounds like a good goal!

And our starters leave after 85 innings because they suck. We have had one competent pitcher who has not been injured this year, Pettitte.

What about Rasner's start where he was taken out after 81 pitches and and only gave up 1 ER? What about taking out Pavano after 90 pitches when he was cruising in Minnesota? What about talking out Pettite at Fenway after 6 and 2/3 innings when he was cruising?

If you're going to blame Torre for all the injuries, fine go ahead. But don't say he should be fired for them.

I never said he should be fired because of injuries.Torre should be fired for his incompetence in managing a bullpen. When we get all our starters back from injury, he'll still abuse our bullpen. He'll still take out of our pitchers early when they are cruising. He did it last year.

Who do you want to hit leadoff? Jeter, Abreu second and Matsui 3rd? Ok fine, give alternatives to what you are saying, dont just throw stuff out there.

Yes, you bat your best hitters first and your worst hitters last. If Damon isn't in the lineup, you move everybody up a spot and have Jeter leadoff. You don't put an automatic out at the top of the lineup. Don't you want your best hitters getting the most at-bats? Why do you want an automatic out like Melky getting more at-bats than Jeter, Abreu, Arod, Giambi, Posada and Cano. It makes no sense at all.

What would you do differently instead of bashing him. He doesn't have a choice. The only guys who haven't been hurt this year are Pettitte, the bullpen, Arod, Abreu, Cano, Melky, The first base tandem, and Ryan Freeking Thompson. Thats half our roster right there.

Half our roster? Nope. Stop exagerating.
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Post#25 » by throwbackewing33 » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:15 pm

Girardi or Donnie is gonna be our next manager. I truly thought that would have happened this past winter but i was wrong. They were talking about our bullpen like it was our strength. I think our relievers are talented but cannot handle the workload they currently have. Torre, as stated already is horrible at managing the bullpen. I also think this team needs somebody to light a fire under them. Thats why Girardi is the man for the job. I'd say Cash doesnt resign Torre after this season unless we win a world series.
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Post#26 » by 34Celtic » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:59 pm

I'm not even going to respond to this.
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Post#27 » by Slamm Goodbody » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:37 pm

cmaff051 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
How do you know that we'll win the division? One of these days we are going to get off to such a slow start that we won't be able to make up enough ground. Whether it will happen this year is yet to be seen. However, you can't just keep saying "don't worry about April, we'll make a run and win the division anyway". Because of these years it's not going to happen.

And people have been calling for Joe's firing a few years ago. The problem with Joe Torre is that he doesn't have the foggiest clue how to manage a bullpen. He plays too many favorites. Why is Eye Chart starting at 1B everday instead of Phelps. Why do many of his relievers routinely pitch 80-90 innings a year while his starters leave after 85 pitches. Why does Joe put the worst hitter in our lineup, Melky Cabrera, at the leadoff spot. Why?


People have been calling for his head since the 2004 debacle. This isn't anything knew. Joe's flaws have been known for a few years now, and looky here, they reared their ugly head against this year. This burnout of the bullpen could have been avoided by competent bullpen management.


The point is that it's not even the end of April and you guys think the sky is falling here. Does Joe Torre overuse our bullpen? Yes, absolutely, but at least this time, in the early part of the season, we've had to rely on it because of a shoddy rotation. If he leaves a bad starter in for too long (say Karstens for instance), all we'll hear about is how he should've known when to pull the plug because such and such is trash.

And I would never consider Melky Cabrera the worst hitter in our lineup. Maybe the slowest out of the gate right now, but he's demonstrated a knack for getting on base since last season. I agree that now is not necessarily the time to put him in at leadoff, but he's only going to get his confidence back with more at bats. When Jeter had that awful start, did Torre bat him ninth? No, because getting dropped in the batting order kills your confidence.

The weather has been awful, our pitching staff has been a revolving door, Damon and Matsui started the year hurt, and we're only now starting to get back some of our starting pitching. You're overreacting. If we're in the same boat come May 25, maybe then I'll agree with some of your points, but it's way too early here.

Firing Torre would be a huge mistake at this juncture. He's made a couple of bad moves this year, but that's going to happen in the course of a baseball season. He's got the backing of the players, the coaches, and the GM. You're going to pull him out and throw in Joe Girardi who had one good year for what? For the sake of change? How does Joe Girardi improve our pitching staff? He's not a magician. He would play with the cards he was dealt, same as Torre's doing now.
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Post#28 » by ccvle » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:26 pm

Pettite had already threw 100 pitches in that game against boston, and he is not known for pitching high pitch count. Plus Pettite's elbow is always a concern.What happened to Pavano after his last game? Yeah, he went to the DL. Beside, Pavano went 7th innings,so there was nothing wrong taking him out.
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Post#29 » by ccvle » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:36 pm

oh yeah, did Torre really killed proctor's arm last season?

Month ERA IP
April 1.69 16
May 5.5 18
June 5.06 16
July 3.86 14
August 3.27 22
Sept. 1.76 15.1



Proctor pitched over 100 innings last season and he was still strong going into august and september. Now you guys want to tell me that he is burned out after 3 weeks this season?
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Post#30 » by ccvle » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:47 pm

Yup, Torre killed Villone's arm too.

___________________2003 2004 2005 2006
Pre-all stars break ERA 2.7 2.87 2.52 2.27
post all stars break ERA 4.7 5.09 6.04 8.35

Yeah, you are reading it correctly. Villone ALWAYS SUCK after the All breaks.
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Post#31 » by cmaff051 » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:41 am

Slamm Goodbody wrote:The point is that it's not even the end of April and you guys think the sky is falling here.


I never said or implied the sky was falling. Nice try though. I know that we'll probably make the playoffs once again, but I want Torre gone. He needs to go. It has nothing to do with us being at 8-11. At the end of last year, I wanted him gone.

After 11 years of the same manager, we need change. Change for the sake of change. We haven't won a World Series since 2000, things need to change and soon.
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Post#32 » by Slamm Goodbody » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:25 am

cmaff051 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I never said or implied the sky was falling. Nice try though. I know that we'll probably make the playoffs once again, but I want Torre gone. He needs to go. It has nothing to do with us being at 8-11. At the end of last year, I wanted him gone.

After 11 years of the same manager, we need change. Change for the sake of change. We haven't won a World Series since 2000, things need to change and soon.


Change for the sake of change is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Why wasn't Bobby Cox fired last year? The Braves didn't make the playoffs last year, and they haven't even won a World Series since 1995! They didn't fire him because the franchise continues to be a winner every season under his stewardship, and while I know that being a Yankee fan means expecting a World Series ring every year, you have to understand that it doesn't always work that way. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Torre's gotten us to the playoffs so many times that he warrants a full season to try again. Why screw with what has been working?

If you don't like Joe Torre, that's totally understandable. He has faults, just like every manager. But if he was going to be fired, then he should have been fired at the end of last year. He wasn't. Now you wait until his contract is finished at the end of the season, see how he performed, and assess whether or not we should change direction. You don't fire a manager in the middle of April unless he truly has done something to warrant it.
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Post#33 » by cmaff051 » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:36 am

Slamm Goodbody wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Change for the sake of change is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Why wasn't Bobby Cox fired last year? The Braves didn't make the playoffs last year, and they haven't even won a World Series since 1995! They didn't fire him because the franchise continues to be a winner every season under his stewardship, and while I know that being a Yankee fan means expecting a World Series ring every year, you have to understand that it doesn't always work that way. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Torre's gotten us to the playoffs so many times that he warrants a full season to try again. Why screw with what has been working?

If you don't like Joe Torre, that's totally understandable. He has faults, just like every manager. But if he was going to be fired, then he should have been fired at the end of last year. He wasn't. Now you wait until his contract is finished at the end of the season, see how he performed, and assess whether or not we should change direction. You don't fire a manager in the middle of April unless he truly has done something to warrant it.


Sake for the sake of change is not stupid. Especially when you have 3 first ballot hall of famers on your roster and they will only be in their primes for so long. We haven't won a World Series in 6 years... we need to stop living in the past. There needs to be some changes, and those changes start with the manager.

We aren't the Atlanta Braves. We are the New York Yankees. We run things differently here. Winning the division each year isn't good enough, especially when we got one of the most talented core of batters in the history of baseball, the most dominant closer of all time, and the history payroll in the history of baseball. There are no excuses here like there is in Atlanta. We don't have to cut payroll to survive. We don't struggle to attract fans to our stadium. We fill up our stadium for almost every single one of our home games. Once again, we are not the Atlanta Braves.

Fire him now, fire him at the end of the season... whatever. You are just arguing semantics and are being contrarian for the sake of it.
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Post#34 » by Slamm Goodbody » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:23 am

cmaff051 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Sake for the sake of change is not stupid. Especially when you have 3 first ballot hall of famers on your roster and they will only be in their primes for so long. We haven't won a World Series in 6 years... we need to stop living in the past. There needs to be some changes, and those changes start with the manager.

We aren't the Atlanta Braves. We are the New York Yankees. We run things differently here. Winning the division each year isn't good enough, especially when we got one of the most talented core of batters in the history of baseball, the most dominant closer of all time, and the history payroll in the history of baseball. There are no excuses here like there is in Atlanta. We don't have to cut payroll to survive. We don't struggle to attract fans to our stadium. We fill up our stadium for almost every single one of our home games. Once again, we are not the Atlanta Braves.

Fire him now, fire him at the end of the season... whatever. You are just arguing semantics and are being contrarian for the sake of it.


You should look up the meaning of the words semantics and contrarian before you try to accuse me of doing things that I am not doing. I truly believe that Torre is the right manager for this team this year. Next season, when our rotation gets even younger as Hughes and possibly another starter from the minor leagues are permanently members of our starting rotation (and who knows, maybe even Tabata in the OF), Girardi might be a better choice. He showed a knack for working with younger players and I think that would be of real help next season. But that is next season.

This isn't the NBA where half the teams in the league make it to the playoffs. Making the playoffs is a significant achievement. But to assume that the Braves were ever pleased with "just" making the playoffs is absurd. The Braves are a quality franchise with a history of excellence. If you're in the playoffs, you want to make the World Series. Just because the Braves don't throw money around like the Yankees do doesn't make them any less competitive of a franchise or their goals any less lofty. My Bobby Cox comparison remains valid.

This amazing core of hitters we have doesn't mean anything if they can't do anything but swing a bat. Defense and pitching win championships, and we haven't had either in quite a while. We all want a World Series ring, but it was Cashman's fault that he threw money around since the Giambi signing in the wrong places. And in case you haven't noticed, we've been cutting payroll and getting rid of these big contracts in an effort to rebuild that staff. You don't just expect a World Series ring every year out of entitlement because you wear pinstripes.
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Post#35 » by cmaff051 » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:38 am

Slamm Goodbody wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



You should look up the meaning of the words semantics and contrarian before you try to accuse me of doing things that I am not doing.


Thanks. I looked them up. My point still stands.

This isn't the NBA where half the teams in the league make it to the playoffs. Making the playoffs is a significant achievement. But to assume that the Braves were ever pleased with "just" making the playoffs is absurd. The Braves are a quality franchise with a history of excellence. If you're in the playoffs, you want to make the World Series. Just because the Braves don't throw money around like the Yankees do doesn't make them any less competitive of a franchise or their goals any less lofty. My Bobby Cox comparison remains valid.


No, it's really not a valid comparision and you know it. The Braves don't expect to win the World Series every year and their season is not judged upon whether or not they win the World Series or not. They have what is considered a good season if they just make the playoffs.

The Yankees are not like that. If they don't win the World Series, the season is a failure. We've made the playoffs 11 years in a row, and have went without a World Series for 6 years. You can consider a division title a success and yes, it's a success to a degree, but the ultimate failure is when we don't win the World Series. When you have an $180 million dollar payroll, expectations are like that.

This amazing core of hitters we have doesn't mean anything if they can't do anything but swing a bat. Defense and pitching win championships, and we haven't had either in quite a while. We all want a World Series ring, but it was Cashman's fault that he threw money around since the Giambi signing in the wrong places. And in case you haven't noticed, we've been cutting payroll and getting rid of these big contracts in an effort to rebuild that staff. You don't just expect a World Series ring every year out of entitlement because you wear pinstripes.


I expect a World Series every year. I guess that makes me spoiled. Whatever. If you just expect to win the division every year and then the season is fine and dandy, then you turn into the Atlanta Braves. We don't want to be like the Atlanta Braves. We have a significant monetary advantage over every team in this league by far. Our expectations should be high. Our players expectations are high. Jeter has gone on the record and has said that the season is a failure if the Yankees don't win a World Series. That's just the way it is.

And please don't lecture me on how a Yankee fan should think. Thanks.
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Post#36 » by Slamm Goodbody » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:41 am

34Celtic wrote:I'm not even going to respond to this.
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Post#37 » by cmaff051 » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:47 am

Thanks, made me feel like I did my job.
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Post#38 » by 34Celtic » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:07 pm

cmaff051 wrote:Fire him now, fire him at the end of the season... whatever. You are just arguing semantics and are being contrarian for the sake of it.


I actualy agree with him. Not you cmaff
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Post#39 » by 34Celtic » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:09 pm

cmaff051 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I expect a World Series every year. I guess that makes me spoiled. Whatever. If you just expect to win the division every year and then the season is fine and dandy, then you turn into the Atlanta Braves. We don't want to be like the Atlanta Braves. We have a significant monetary advantage over every team in this league by far. Our expectations should be high. Our players expectations are high. Jeter has gone on the record and has said that the season is a failure if the Yankees don't win a World Series. That's just the way it is.

And please don't lecture me on how a Yankee fan should think. Thanks.


so if We had Girardi or Mattingly managing the team right now you would want them fired? Is that what you're saying?
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Post#40 » by ReggieFULLeffect » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:32 pm

so if We had Girardi or Mattingly managing the team right now you would want them fired? Is that what you're saying?


You are missing the point with that statement. There are those of us who have seen why Torre needs to go not just this season so far, but many seasons in the past. There is no more time for giving Joe Torre a chance because he's been here over a decade and he hasn't gotten it done in 6 years. If we had Girardi or Donnie in there it would be different. We'd still criticize but no one would call for their firing because it would have been there first year.

By the way, are you really satisfied with the way Torre has managed so far this year. Be honest --- because I can't see anyone being happy with it. Maybe it'sa just me.
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