Pacers drop to last in NBA attendance

[count55]

Two decisions I don't regret making: passing on both Brad Miller and Peja for the contracts they were offered.

Both were long, gawdawful, and a good 60% over what I thought (and still think) they were worth.

I must admit that I questioned both the Foster and the Bender signings at the time. However, I'd rather have Foster and his game and contract than Miller and his game and contract.

I never believed in Bender to begin with primarily because I thought he didn't particularly know how to play basketball. He always struck me as kind of a upper-middle class man's Kenny Williams.

[PR07]

I don't know though. If we had signed Brad Miller to that contract, while it would be ugly no,. I'm not so sure that we wouldn't have beaten the Pistons in that Eastern Conference Finals and perhaps win a championship. When you consider how close both of those teams were, and how much the Wallaces vs. JO and Foster/Cro was the difference in that series. We may have been able to get Reggie that ring. We'll never know though.

[count55]

I don't think we're anywhere near as good in 2004 with Miller over Foster. Foster added defense and quickness all year long. When Miller was here, we were oftentime glacially slow.

Plus, he continually broke down after the All-Star break and wasn't particularly effective in the playoffs.

[PR07]

I think we still have a better chance of beating the Pistons though with Miller over Foster, no doubt in my mind. We needed a better frontcourt partner than the Foster/Cro platoon for JO. For one, no one would ever guard Foster. It was basically Sheed manning up JO and Wallace protecting his blindside. If Cro came in, then either Sheed would have a field day or we'd just get abused on the glass by Big Ben. Foster couldn't guard Sheed either, he doesn't have the length (in fact, he still can't guard him looking at last night's game even as good as a defender as Foster can be). So we were basically asking JO to carry the main roles offensively and defensively while also going 1 on 2 on one of the ends depending on which member of the platoon was in. Brad Miller is breaking down though, but back in his prime, he'd give you a couple of things....as consistent of a midrange jumper as you'll find in a bigman, many trips to the FT line (which he's very good at converting), and good passing. While he's not a particularly strong defender, he wasn't bad either. It's a duo that I wish we could've kept around a little longer. The team was too young when we had them both, and Isiah wasn't really smart enough to utilize the tandem like he could've.

To this day, he's still putting up 14 and 9 which I would much rather have over Murphy's production given their similar contracts.

[count55]

I don't want either contract.

[APerna]

I sure if this has been said, but I cannot thank of that season without picturing Prince's block on Reggie...it kills me to this day.

[ajizzle]

^^Me too, PaPerMod! In fact, I was reminded of that the other night when we were playing the Pistons...

We were coming back and Diener got out on the break, w/ Tayshaun looming behind. Travis did the smart thing and protected his shot w/ his body, but I was thinking,"Oh... here we go again..."

The Pacers probably would've been better with Brad next to JO. Everyone has to remember that we've never been a fast team until just recently, and those late '90s teams had the likes of Smits, Jackson, Mullin, and Perkins on them. We were a half-court team, so Brad being slow wouldn't have hurt us.

Then factor into the equation Brad's range, JO and Artest could've had even more space to operate in the post w/ both Millers spacing the floor.

I love Jeff, but Brad could've given us a better chance to win, especially vs. the Pistons.

P.S. Don't blame Larry for our troubles. He didn't sign Croshere and Bender to those big deals. He's trying to better our image. Everyone wants to talk about blowing up the team, but complain w/ how bad we are now. We'll be 2x as bad if we complete detonate, and we all know that what we got for Jack and Artest is probably the best we could do realistically. Give the Legend another 2 seasons before we talk about serious repercussions.

[sanddude909]

This led to the Artest for Peja for Harrington for Murphleavy situation, which was going to be ugly from the start...It's had mixed returns as Dunleavy has been solid, Murphy awful, and Ike and McLeod irrelevant. It looks worse because of what Golden State has done, but I don't really take that into account because I don't believe Jackson was ever going to be accepted or happy here, so I don't think what's happening in GS was ever a possibility here. (At least not at the point that the decision was made.)

************

This reminds me:

during the Warriors' - Hornets' game last night, our announcers reported a conversation they had with Tyson Chandler about the trade with the Clippers and Elton Brand.

Chandler said that with the Chicago coaching staff, there was no way he was going to develop into the center that he became.

I think that's a lot of what has happened with Jackson. He got traded to the right situation with the right coach and has flourished. I doubt, even with O'brien as his coach, that he has the kind of year for you that he's having for us.

just like there is no way dunleavy would be having a career year with us like he is having with you.

Stephen is starting to regress into less than what he was earlier this year. His shooting is off (nothwithstanding his nice game vs NO) and he is too much iso / dribble-drive-lose the ball for my taste. Still, he's the second or third best player on our team, and as long as he is satisfied with that role, i think he will be fine.

[Grang33r]

i think the right way to rebuild is through the draft or free agency,
since I'm often cynical about rebuilding through trades, mainly because no one going to give up good players via trades unless if those players have serious character issues or their team is going no where ala the new jersey nets right now.

I don't think we can re-build in the NBA via free agency like you can in any of the other 3 major sports. I don't know any team that has?

Only ways to do so are via the draft and getting lucky, because theres always so much hyped players and only a limited of them become stars or by dealing for a troubled super star who needs to change cities... like a Kobe Bryant. No, i am not saying we will or should get Kobe, but say if the Knicks somehow land with Kobe, it will totally change their franchise. (my point is, he was troubled and demanded a trade).

Look at Boston with Kevin Garnett. Building via free agency won't do much good.

[ajizzle]

Well, free agency has some good guys out there... You just gotta look for them. Detroit has done it... in fact, the only starter that was drafted is Tayshaun Prince. The Lakers had their last dynasty when they got Shaq via FA.

I think that the main focus should be the draft, probably to find your franchise players... but when you need to find those role players to fit in w/ the superstars, FA is the best/quickest way to do so.

And KG was traded to Boston, not a FA...

[Scoot McGroot]

However, in all honesty, the only guys that Detroit has picked up in free agency have been Chauncey Billups, Antonio McDyess, Flip Murray, Lindsay Hunter, and Jarvis Hayes.

They acquired Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace (he was a key to their rebuilding), Richard Hamilton via trades, while drafting most of the rest of their team.

They signed 2 starters, drafted 1, and traded for the other 2. Then, of their key backups, they drafted all of their key backups except for Flip Murray and Jarvis Hayes.

[TSC25]

-= original quote snipped =-



The Brad Miller trade wasn't his fault. Miller and O'Neal were FA's the same summer. We didn't have enough cap room to sign both. Obviously by going with O'Neal we couldn't sign Miller. You forget we had the best record in the NBA the year after that trade. Not that Pollard did all that much with us, but I don't see how it was a bad trade when we got Scott Pollard over having nothing.

The Mavs trades were both good. Daniels for Croshere? Daniels has been on of the best 6th men we have seen on the Pacers(and thats saying a lot). The AJ trade brought us Darrell Armstrong who brought life to a dead team, he was a crowd favorite, played his heart out every night.

The GS trade had to be done. We had been getting screwed by the refs close to every game since the brawl. Getting rid of Jack was getting rid of the other problem. He did nothing but get in trouble with us and was a constant distraction on and off the court. Just because he has thrived in GS does not mean he helped us. Al did nothing but throw O'Neals game off. Murphy complements O'Neal, as bad as his contract has been, he's done good for his given role on the Pacers.

It is not Birds fault the team fell apart. If anyone its JO's, I hate saying that because I am still one of the few that wants to keep JO in Indy, but I say this because once Reggie left, JO never took over. JO was suppose to take control of the team, and he never did. The absence of Reggie Miller is when the team started spiraling down hill(even post brawl we made playoffs). You can't expect a team to lose a Hall of Famer then precede like nothing happened. The loss of a Hall of Famer is huge. Even if Reggie wasn't his All-Star self, he was still the most clutch player in the NBA and provided on the court and off the court leadership. JO never took the reigns when he left.

Its ridiculous to say its Bird's fault. Teams struggle, it happens. I don't know of any GM that could deal with all the crap we have gone through(brawl, refs, guns, drugs, nightclubs). Its crazy, we have been a contending team for the better part of a decade, now 2 years of struggling because of crap he couldn't control and he is worthless? Give me a break.

Well I have no problem with with the Miller trade,Pollard thou maybe not as good a player as Brad is,but Pollard was a good fit,so I could live with it,plus Brad had a chance to play at home and for a team that could contend for a championship and he went for the money,so yeah I wont blame Larry for that one.

Now as for Austin,he was an ok player,but Daniels hasnt been healthy,but Daniels isnt the player we need.he's not a lock down defender,nor a great shooter at the 2 guard,sure he gets to the lane well,but Obie system looks better when he has better shooters,as did Ricks offence.

And the Golden State could have been better,if he had to rid the team of Jackson,then just cut him and take the loss,the way JO is always injured I'd much rather have Al playing than Murphy and Dunleavy,and sure we got Ike,but if we dont play him,then it dont really matter if he's here or not.

And yes I still feel it's Bird's fault,but I'll give some of the blame to JO,for not trying to work with Artest,JO didnt want him here,and thats when Ron asked to be traded,and we havent been the same since.

[Grang33r]

Well, free agency has some good guys out there... You just gotta look for them. Detroit has done it... in fact, the only starter that was drafted is Tayshaun Prince. The Lakers had their last dynasty when they got Shaq via FA.

I think that the main focus should be the draft, probably to find your franchise players... but when you need to find those role players to fit in w/ the superstars, FA is the best/quickest way to do so.

And KG was traded to Boston, not a FA...

I know KG was, i was saying they build their team by trades.

And Detroit build their teams via the trade. Rasheed Wallace was traded, he was a huge troubled star. That's how you build in the NBA, 1. lucky in the draft, or 2. Lucky by getting a troubled star who is changed in a new location. Ala Richard Hamilton and Rasheed Wallace. Once they had those pieces, got a good pick in Prince then they can go out and get deals like Ben Wallace and get players for NEED.

Pacers can't.

Lakers example you listed is spot on but that was like what, 10 years ago?

[joew8302]

Disappointing story here. Without reading everyones thought I think you would be lying if you said character issues don't play a big part. I mean the Pacers of the 90's were a good, not great team and got plenty of support. Guys like Smits, the Davis's, Mark Jackson, Haywood Workman and Travist Best were blue collar, hard working guys. Reggie was the obvious face of the franchise. They played hard every night and were model citizens for the most part off the court.

Contrast that with the players of recent memory. Stephen Jackson and Jamal Tinsley I believe are convicted felons. Shawne Williams gets busted for possession of weed and David Harrison has failed three drug tests. The Pacers now have a terrible reputation off the court, and when fans see players like Tinsley yawn on the court and Jackson loaf after loose balls this team quickly falls out of favor.

Indiana needs to rid themselves of the problem children and bring back a hard working team with good character individuals to right the ship IMO.