Despite our record, I'm seeing some things I like out of this bunch. I think the potential is there to be much better next year.
Granger is maturing nicely, and we're beginning to see some nice things out of Shawne as well.
Dunleavy may not be exactly a steal based on what we're paying him, but he's a much, much, much better player than anyone here thought immediately following the trade.
Ditto Murphy, who is coming around nicely. Someone here said he might just be the perfect compliment to a healthy Jermaine.
In that regard, I don't think JO's going anywhere. I think it's a mistake to bring him back this year--we've been that route once too often. Let him sit out and heal beyond any shadow of a doubt. Besides, I want to see what the lottery might yield for us.
Murray was a nice pickup. I still have faith in Denier too, and I think the two of them make a solid if not spectacular tandem at the point.
Contrary to the conventional wisdom here on this board, I'm beginning to think it may be too soon to give up on Harrison. People mature at different rates. He's been an ass, but he's been playing under control for the most part lately, and the talent is there. It may make sense to try and keep him. He, Jermaine, Murph, Jeff, Danny, and Shawne make us potentially very strong in the frontcourt.
Rush has had his moments--he's also a keeper if we can keep him at a decent price.
Graham? Owens? I don't think anyone knows what these guys can do. Not enough playing time.
Tinsley, Diogu, and maybe Daniels look to maybe be on the outside looking in.
A decent draft pick (a lottery pick, hopefully) plus a healthy Jermaine and the core above could surprise, IMO.
Thoughts?
Could this team surprise next year?
Moderators: pacers33granger, Grang33r, pacerfan, Jake0890, boomershadow
Could this team surprise next year?
-
writerman
- Banned User
- Posts: 6,836
- And1: 5
- Joined: Sep 02, 2002
-
xxSnEaKyPxx
- RealGM
- Posts: 18,432
- And1: 19,060
- Joined: Jun 02, 2007
You seriously just posted everything I was thinking. I agree with you 100% on everything. The only thing I am a little different than you is Diogu, I still think he can prove to be a valuable asset if we use him right. He has played well in his minutes, but as you said, Obie doesn't like him so he may be on the outside. I also disagree that Murray and Diener are a good back court combo. They are decent, but we need a real starter, not 2 backups.
Great post man.
Great post man.
-
cdash
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,253
- And1: 0
- Joined: Feb 11, 2008
You didnt even touch on Harrison. I am one of his biggest detractors, and even I will admit hes been playing pretty well lately. Its too early to call surprise teams for next year, but with the state of the East, a lottery pick, and maybe a bit free agent or two, we certainly have the potential. This is a really, really important summer for us. Let's hope Bird is up to the task.
-
greenway84
- Bench Warmer
- Posts: 1,447
- And1: 0
- Joined: Apr 22, 2007
I also tend to agree. I think if we can draft a good pg and a decent big man we will be well off. I think Tinsley, Daniels, and Diogu need to be traded all for different reasons. I think I would keep Harrison only if he takes the min. I also wouldn't resign Rush for too much either. Diener will be a great backup to our starting pg. I think the thing that could improve this team the most is a new coach. I know it's only been one year, but the more I watched the more mad I got. No defense, I like the quick fast paced offense, but too many bad three's. I think if we get back to a defense first mindset we will be atop the east again. I've said it once and I'll say it again. The fast paced offense no defense combo doesn't work especially in the playoffs. Suns are a perfect example off that. Looking forward to a great offseason and ready to come back strong next year.
-
PacerGuy
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,126
- And1: 0
- Joined: Feb 05, 2006
- Location: Indy
Nice post, but I'd like to address a few points:
-Yes, Harrison has played well of late, but there is no chance we will resign him! I know, letting talent - esp 7'er w/ talent walk sucks, but he has to. He is a royal ass, he is still a foul machine, but above all of that, it is his his off-court issues that make this a moot issue. He already has a 5-game suspention for substance abuse, meaning he has tested positive 3 times! Another positive test & he faces serious suspention time, & the Pacers would be again slapped w/ the PR of dealing w/ him. I wish it could be different, but say good-bye now, cause he ain't comm'n back!!!
-Murray & Diener have played well in spot, & even some streatches of extended play, but neither is an NBA starter. Neither will ever be able to take this team to a next level, nor are they building-blocks to build a team around. I think the experience that Diener is getting now is great, as he is signed (a Bird signing) thru the next few yrs., but lets not get carried away & think that Diener is a starter. Murray will likely not be back, unless Bird likes what he see's & Murray likes it here, he is not a bad #3 PG/SG to have around. Lets face it though, if Tin's is around, he starts. But.... all that said, I would support Diener as a (temporary) starter if it meant Tin's was moved!
-While I think you accurately speak of the possitives that Murph has shown of late (I still think he can be the consistant double-double guy we all expected/ hoped for), I think you are off-base stating that he would be better w/ JO. I see Murph as a nice PF for a team w/ a true big-man (Yoa, Howard) down low. Murph is a 4, not a 5. JO is also a 4, & not a 5. Playing either one out of position is not the answer, IMO. Murph's shooting would be a huge asset to a team w/ a post presence, & that is not JO's streangth. JO plays more off the block, kinda becoming a poor-man's Karl Malone-type 10' jump shot big, not a banger down low. That is also where Murph's streangths are. His recent play is not only due to his returned health (an under-stated fact), but he is hitting jump shots, & driving to the basket off a fake. Neither are "post moves", they require being off the block. Murph plays better w/ Foster on the floor then w/ JO.
-I think it was count that best described the best-case-senerio for Ike as a "Corlious Williamson-Type" player, not the "Charles Barkley-type" many may have hoped for. Currently I do think Ike offers us more offensively, but I think it is his D (& low B-Ball IQ) that is keeping him off the floor more so then his lack of size at the 4. Now, maybe w/ another yr in the same system (let's remember he has gone from Musselman-Nelson-Carlistle-JO'B in just the last 3+ yr) Ike still might come around, but the window is getting smaller & smaller. We either need to invest heavely in him (personal coach, playing time), or move him in a package this off-season.
-Daniels needs moved this off-season, & w/ his expiring deal, a package w/ him is likely. Thing is, for what? Bird was very specific when he said the Simon's want a low-budget comtetitive team. This means not taking back any long-term/ high $ deals (not that we would). This will be interesting, & likely our first glimpse (post draft) at what Bird is thinking. I would also like to see Rush return, at the right price of course. I think he has shown himself well, & has shown me more consistantly then Daniels has t/y.
To sum this up, I do agree that there are some up-side thinks to take into the off-season, but there are still many questions. Bird has stated that the team will use Danny & Mike as building-blocks, after that is anyones guess. I hope S.Williams can be a part of that group, as I think he is ready to "go off" if he focuses, & surrounds himself w/ the right guys (someone Please let him squat w/ A.D. this summer!
) & works hard in the weight room & on his defense this summer. In the draft, I need to hit on this pick in a big way (I have some ideas, but want to see our final position & research them alittle more before starting to throw out names). Now, if we can just tay off the police blotter, I do think that n/y will be much more enjoyable for us all! That, and........
The best support to your post: We're in the EAST - Anything can happen n/y!
-Yes, Harrison has played well of late, but there is no chance we will resign him! I know, letting talent - esp 7'er w/ talent walk sucks, but he has to. He is a royal ass, he is still a foul machine, but above all of that, it is his his off-court issues that make this a moot issue. He already has a 5-game suspention for substance abuse, meaning he has tested positive 3 times! Another positive test & he faces serious suspention time, & the Pacers would be again slapped w/ the PR of dealing w/ him. I wish it could be different, but say good-bye now, cause he ain't comm'n back!!!
-Murray & Diener have played well in spot, & even some streatches of extended play, but neither is an NBA starter. Neither will ever be able to take this team to a next level, nor are they building-blocks to build a team around. I think the experience that Diener is getting now is great, as he is signed (a Bird signing) thru the next few yrs., but lets not get carried away & think that Diener is a starter. Murray will likely not be back, unless Bird likes what he see's & Murray likes it here, he is not a bad #3 PG/SG to have around. Lets face it though, if Tin's is around, he starts. But.... all that said, I would support Diener as a (temporary) starter if it meant Tin's was moved!
-While I think you accurately speak of the possitives that Murph has shown of late (I still think he can be the consistant double-double guy we all expected/ hoped for), I think you are off-base stating that he would be better w/ JO. I see Murph as a nice PF for a team w/ a true big-man (Yoa, Howard) down low. Murph is a 4, not a 5. JO is also a 4, & not a 5. Playing either one out of position is not the answer, IMO. Murph's shooting would be a huge asset to a team w/ a post presence, & that is not JO's streangth. JO plays more off the block, kinda becoming a poor-man's Karl Malone-type 10' jump shot big, not a banger down low. That is also where Murph's streangths are. His recent play is not only due to his returned health (an under-stated fact), but he is hitting jump shots, & driving to the basket off a fake. Neither are "post moves", they require being off the block. Murph plays better w/ Foster on the floor then w/ JO.
-I think it was count that best described the best-case-senerio for Ike as a "Corlious Williamson-Type" player, not the "Charles Barkley-type" many may have hoped for. Currently I do think Ike offers us more offensively, but I think it is his D (& low B-Ball IQ) that is keeping him off the floor more so then his lack of size at the 4. Now, maybe w/ another yr in the same system (let's remember he has gone from Musselman-Nelson-Carlistle-JO'B in just the last 3+ yr) Ike still might come around, but the window is getting smaller & smaller. We either need to invest heavely in him (personal coach, playing time), or move him in a package this off-season.
-Daniels needs moved this off-season, & w/ his expiring deal, a package w/ him is likely. Thing is, for what? Bird was very specific when he said the Simon's want a low-budget comtetitive team. This means not taking back any long-term/ high $ deals (not that we would). This will be interesting, & likely our first glimpse (post draft) at what Bird is thinking. I would also like to see Rush return, at the right price of course. I think he has shown himself well, & has shown me more consistantly then Daniels has t/y.
To sum this up, I do agree that there are some up-side thinks to take into the off-season, but there are still many questions. Bird has stated that the team will use Danny & Mike as building-blocks, after that is anyones guess. I hope S.Williams can be a part of that group, as I think he is ready to "go off" if he focuses, & surrounds himself w/ the right guys (someone Please let him squat w/ A.D. this summer!
) & works hard in the weight room & on his defense this summer. In the draft, I need to hit on this pick in a big way (I have some ideas, but want to see our final position & research them alittle more before starting to throw out names). Now, if we can just tay off the police blotter, I do think that n/y will be much more enjoyable for us all! That, and........
The best support to your post: We're in the EAST - Anything can happen n/y!
Larry Bird, You are now on the Clock! ( 3/24/08 )
-
joew8302
- Senior
- Posts: 646
- And1: 0
- Joined: Feb 06, 2008
Sorry, but I don't agree with any of that. These guys have had over a year now to show what they can do together, and I haven't seen many positive results. Using JO as a crutch won't work anymore, we can't rely on this guy to play more than 20 games healthy per year. He will always be injured in some way, and his production will never be what it was years ago.
Dunleavy and Murphy are great offensive players, true. Everyone loves that. They are embarrassingly bad on defense though. That can not be discounted.
Flip/Diener/Tinsley when it is all said and done might be the worst sets of point guards in the league. That is not an exaggeration either, name me a few teams that are worse off in the point guard situation.
And lastly, the win streak was nice, but we beat Minnesota, Charlotte and Chicago. Yes, I know we played NO tough, but lost. We played Detroit tough and lost, we played Cleveland tough and lost, I don't get too encouraged by losses like some people, sorry.
Unless major change is made I see next year looking very similar to this year.
Dunleavy and Murphy are great offensive players, true. Everyone loves that. They are embarrassingly bad on defense though. That can not be discounted.
Flip/Diener/Tinsley when it is all said and done might be the worst sets of point guards in the league. That is not an exaggeration either, name me a few teams that are worse off in the point guard situation.
And lastly, the win streak was nice, but we beat Minnesota, Charlotte and Chicago. Yes, I know we played NO tough, but lost. We played Detroit tough and lost, we played Cleveland tough and lost, I don't get too encouraged by losses like some people, sorry.
Unless major change is made I see next year looking very similar to this year.
-
xxSnEaKyPxx
- RealGM
- Posts: 18,432
- And1: 19,060
- Joined: Jun 02, 2007
greenway84 wrote:I also tend to agree. I think if we can draft a good pg and a decent big man we will be well off. I think Tinsley, Daniels, and Diogu need to be traded all for different reasons. I think I would keep Harrison only if he takes the min. I also wouldn't resign Rush for too much either. Diener will be a great backup to our starting pg. I think the thing that could improve this team the most is a new coach. I know it's only been one year, but the more I watched the more mad I got. No defense, I like the quick fast paced offense, but too many bad three's. I think if we get back to a defense first mindset we will be atop the east again. I've said it once and I'll say it again. The fast paced offense no defense combo doesn't work especially in the playoffs. Suns are a perfect example off that. Looking forward to a great offseason and ready to come back strong next year.
Agreed. I can't stand Obie, he doesn't understand defense at all. I've watched guys make 5 threes in a row, and then get left open for 3 more. Its insane. I really think for us to be a threat we need a new coach. I still think we can be good with him, but to be a threat we need a coach who knows what hes doing on defense.
-
PacerGuy
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,126
- And1: 0
- Joined: Feb 05, 2006
- Location: Indy
DGrangeRx33 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Agreed. I can't stand Obie, he doesn't understand defense at all. I've watched guys make 5 threes in a row, and then get left open for 3 more. Its insane. I really think for us to be a threat we need a new coach. I still think we can be good with him, but to be a threat we need a coach who knows what hes doing on defense.
This was Larry's hire, so he's going nowhere anytime soon!
JO'B is signed for (I think) another 2 yrs, & I can promise you we will not pay him & pay for a new coach. Besides, many of the things that lead to our record t/y are not directly JO'B's fault (JO/Tin's injuries, suspentions,...). Hard to play top-notch on either offense or defense w/o you 2/5 of your starting lineup for 2/3 the yr. Face it, we have reserves playing as starters, & they were reserves for a reason. I will agree the "D" has been a big disappointment (esp w/ all the pre-season talk), but isn't that the responsibility of the "genius" Dick Harter? Where is the blame for him?
I feel your pain DGRx33, trust me - I think we all do, but lets be rational. The coach is way down on the list of what is ailing this team the most right now.
Larry Bird, You are now on the Clock! ( 3/24/08 )
-
Dunthreevy
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 5,946
- And1: 1,353
- Joined: Mar 03, 2008
- Location: Indianapolis, IN
-
joew8302 wrote:Flip/Diener/Tinsley when it is all said and done might be the worst sets of point guards in the league. That is not an exaggeration either, name me a few teams that are worse off in the point guard situation.
Here's 5 teams for you off the top of my head
Clippers - Dan Dickau (garbage), Brevin Knight (no better than Flip), Smush Parker (hyped up head case)
Nuggets - Chucky Atkins (no way in hell should he be starting), Anthony Carter (no better than Diener), Taurean Green (will never even put up Diener type numbers, sad)
Sonics - Luke Ridnour (Diener's clone), Earl Watson (a third option at best), Eddie Gill (garbage)
Heat - Jason Williams (worse than Tinsley when he actually plays), Chris Quinn (should be in the D-League for life), Marcus Banks (wasted potential)
Kings - Beno Udrih (good potential), Quincy Douby (some potential), Anthony Johnson (3rd option on most teams)
-
Scoot McGroot
- Retired Mod
- Posts: 44,697
- And1: 13,937
- Joined: Feb 16, 2005
-
DGrangeRx33 wrote:Sonics PG's are better than the Pacers. I'd rather have Ridnour or Watson over any of our PG's. The rest I agree with though, Kings is a little iffy looking back on it. Anthony Johnson would probably starting for us and hes 3rd string for them, so I dunno.
On just a talent level, I might want the Sonics guys. However, when you add contracts in it, I'd take Diener over Ridnour right now 8 days a week. Earl Watson is the guy I'd want there, but even then I'd only want him as my backup PG.
-
joew8302
- Senior
- Posts: 646
- And1: 0
- Joined: Feb 06, 2008
Dunthreevy
Good list, here is where I come out:
Heat- agreed
Nuggets- Disagree about Carter, while he is no stud I think he is better than Travis. Defense is what separates them. I think the Nuggets PG's are slightly better than Indianas.
Sonics- agreed, but its close. I think Ridenour is better then Diener, but they are similar. Same can be said for Tinsley and Watson.
Kings- completely disagree. Udrih has had a pretty good year. I remember Anthony Johnson for the Pacers as well. When he gets minutes he is very solid. I would take AJ over any of our current PG's.
Clippers- I disagree about Knight. I think he is a very good assist man and can manage the game much better than any of out PG's. I do agree that Dickau and Parker are garbage though. If push came to shove I might give the Pacers the advantage here also, but the situations are pretty similar.
Overall though this highlights my point. Other than Denver, who has two future hall of famers to compensate for bad PG play, the rest of the teams on this list are awful. The fact were debating whether or not out PG situation is one of the 5 worst in the league says a lot and gives me a lot of the pessimistic views I have regarding this team and its future. I will say I have yet to meet anyone on this board who is as low on Diener as I am though. But man, watching Tinsley and Diener run point makes me really miss Haywoode Workman, Travist Best, Mark Jackson and even Sarunas.
Good list, here is where I come out:
Heat- agreed
Nuggets- Disagree about Carter, while he is no stud I think he is better than Travis. Defense is what separates them. I think the Nuggets PG's are slightly better than Indianas.
Sonics- agreed, but its close. I think Ridenour is better then Diener, but they are similar. Same can be said for Tinsley and Watson.
Kings- completely disagree. Udrih has had a pretty good year. I remember Anthony Johnson for the Pacers as well. When he gets minutes he is very solid. I would take AJ over any of our current PG's.
Clippers- I disagree about Knight. I think he is a very good assist man and can manage the game much better than any of out PG's. I do agree that Dickau and Parker are garbage though. If push came to shove I might give the Pacers the advantage here also, but the situations are pretty similar.
Overall though this highlights my point. Other than Denver, who has two future hall of famers to compensate for bad PG play, the rest of the teams on this list are awful. The fact were debating whether or not out PG situation is one of the 5 worst in the league says a lot and gives me a lot of the pessimistic views I have regarding this team and its future. I will say I have yet to meet anyone on this board who is as low on Diener as I am though. But man, watching Tinsley and Diener run point makes me really miss Haywoode Workman, Travist Best, Mark Jackson and even Sarunas.
-
Boneman2
- General Manager
- Posts: 8,312
- And1: 1,661
- Joined: Jul 07, 2003
- Location: Indy
-
.Despite our record, I'm seeing some things I like out of this bunch. I think the potential is there to be much better next year
I believed this before the current season Writerman. Unfortunately our roster is about as cohesive as the democratic party. I really think the only way to improve is to get rid of JO and Tins, although both are good when they feel like playing. We can't move forward because JO fails to even come close to living up to his deal, primarily because he is about as motivated as a sloth. Tinsley isn't too far behind. Both players are morale busters depleting the younger players of their optimism.
Even after we started the season so well, JO made a comment that the team just wasn't really that good. He did so after his return sparked a losing trend.
With this type of leadership our franchise will keep descending.