OT: Pierce/Jackson

FreeRon · Post #1 » by **FreeRon** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 5:06 pm

For anybody who has seen what happened to Paul Pierce and heard Phil Jackson's response, what do you think really happened? I hate Phil Jackson more than is probably reasonable, but I was watching the game and when I saw the replay over and over again I was just thinking, so what? There didn't appear to be any real injury, but he was acting like he had been shot. When he went into the locker room I was just trying to guess how many seconds it would be until he came back. I guessed 2 minutes, he was back in 45 seconds. I don't doubt it hurt and I'm not a doctor or anything, but whether or not he's limping now he wasn't Thursday night. Thoughts?

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #2 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 5:36 pm

I think Phil Jackson is the most overrated coach ever, but I do think Paul Pierce may have over reacted.

I'm sure it hurt - very badly I would imagine. But he was in a wheelchair like he couldn't even walk - much less run. I think everyones making a big deal out of nothing though, why would Phil Jackson care if he over reacted or not? How does it affect him in any way?

FreeRon · Post #3 » by **FreeRon** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 5:44 pm

I think, like Phil thinks, that he was putting on a show to get the crowd into the game. He knew he was going to have to come out sometime to rest or because one more foul would have put him in trouble, so he probably figured it might as well be then. He walked under his own power into the locker room, so the whole thing about him not being able to put any weight at all on it when they carried him to the wheelchair simply could not physiologically be true.

cdash · Post #4 » by **cdash** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 6:02 pm

I think at first, Pierce was hurting...but not enough to get carried off the court onto a wheelchair. It seemed a little bit melodramatic to me.

Also, I'm not sure I can agree that Phil Jackson is the most overrated coach ever. Any guy with 9 rings (going on 10 if the Lakers win this series) is one of the best ever, period. I do think he's lucked out by having some of the all-time greats on his teams, but he still had to do a lot of ego massaging and stuff to keep these guys with their heads on straight. I dont think he is the best ever (as some might say), and I think that Poppovich is right up there with him, but I have to give credit where credit is due: Jackson is one of the best ever.

FreeRon · Post #5 » by **FreeRon** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 6:16 pm

It's hard to say where he is among the greatest. Maybe top 50 if he's lucky. You just can't tell until he does something with a team that doesn't have one of the greatest players in the game. If he went to the Bobcats and won a ring then we'd talk.

cdash · Post #6 » by **cdash** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 6:20 pm

Nobody wins titles with crappy teams.

FreeRon · Post #7 » by **FreeRon** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 6:43 pm

The Bobcats are mediocre. How about the Hawks?

cdash · Post #8 » by **cdash** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 7:25 pm

Come on, top 50? Jackson "maybe" among the top 50 coaches of all time? You dont really believe that do you? I'd love to hear anyone name even 10 coaches that are better than him all-time.

And no coach in NBA past or present could win a title with the Hawks. Not to say they are a bad team, but even with a top notch coach that team could only hope to win maybe 52 games and get to the conference finals with a good deal of luck.

FreeRon · Post #9 » by **FreeRon** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 8:39 pm

Like I said, it's hard to place him. Rings mean that you're not one of the WORST coaches of all time when you coach the teams he's coached. The man hasn't won a championship without Michael Jordan or a Shaq/Kobe combo. He isn't a great ego supressor, either, as we all know what happened with Kobe-Shaq-Payton-Malone. Having two guys like Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen is a great ego supressor, as you can see that you can either play nice or give up the hope of a ring.

cdash · Post #10 » by **cdash** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 8:41 pm

Ehhh...agree to disagree. I think you underestimate just how hard it is to win an NBA title, with or without the great players/teams he has had.

Post #11 » by **count55** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 10:07 pm

FreeRon wrote:Like I said, it's hard to place him. Rings mean that you're not one of the WORST coaches of all time when you coach the teams he's coached. The man hasn't won a championship without Michael Jordan or a Shaq/Kobe combo. He isn't a great ego supressor, either, as we all know what happened with Kobe-Shaq-Payton-Malone. Having two guys like Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen is a great ego supressor, as you can see that you can either play nice or give up the hope of a ring.

Actually, when he was with the Bulls, I thought he was just a "right place, right time" guy who got too much credit. Jordan made that team and kept everybody in line.

However, as much as I dislike Jackson, it was with the Lakers that he earned his stripes as one of the top coaches ever, as well as one of the best a controlling (if not suppressing) egos.

It was a long time ago, but you gotta realize how iffy it was that the Lakers would win a title with Shaq/Kobe when Jackson was hired. They had come up short the previous few years and had been completely embarassed by the Jazz in the 99 playoffs.

There were a number of people questioning how prudent it was for Jackson to take the job as Kobe and Shaq were already feuding, and it was showing on the floor. Jackson got those two to play together for basically the next few years before it finally imploded in 2004, an impressive job.

I would go so far to say that it's not unreasonable to think that the Lakers would not have won any of those titles without Jackson. Impossible to prove, I know, but that's my general opinion of that situation.

I think the guy is an arrogant, self-absorbed prick, but he's also a helluva coach.

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #12 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 11:14 pm

cdash wrote:I think at first, Pierce was hurting...but not enough to get carried off the court onto a wheelchair. It seemed a little bit melodramatic to me.

Also, I'm not sure I can agree that Phil Jackson is the most overrated coach ever. Any guy with 9 rings (going on 10 if the Lakers win this series) is one of the best ever, period. I do think he's lucked out by having some of the all-time greats on his teams, but he still had to do a lot of ego massaging and stuff to keep these guys with their heads on straight. I dont think he is the best ever (as some might say), and I think that Poppovich is right up there with him, but I have to give credit where credit is due: Jackson is one of the best ever.

Isiah Thomas could with 9 rings with guys like Jordan/Pippen and Kobe/Shaq all in their prime.

Post #13 » by **count55** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 11:19 pm

DGrangeRx33 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Isiah Thomas could with 9 rings with guys like Jordan/Pippen and Kobe/Shaq all in their prime.

No, he really couldn't.

xxSnEaKyPxx · Post #14 » by **xxSnEaKyPxx** » Sat Jun 7, 2008 11:51 pm

Any coach could win with those lineups...those were some of the best teams in NBA history and it had very little to do with Jackson.

Post #15 » by **APerna** » Sun Jun 8, 2008 12:58 am

Jackson is a great coach, no question. He deserves that honor simply for corralling Kobe this season.

With that said, Pierce was overly dramatic.

Post #16 » by **PR07** » Sun Jun 8, 2008 7:34 am

Phil Jackson is overrated, but he's still a great coach. He reminds me a lot of former Yankee skipper Joe Torre in that his best ability may be his ability to diffuse egos and mesh personalities to reach the ultimate goal of a championship.

As for Pierce, I don't think it was "Willis Reed", but I do think he was legitimately hurt. Kendrick Perkins landed on his knee in an awkward position, and Perkins is a big guy. Did he exaggerate a little? Probably. However, I think the treatment and the supportive sleeve helped, and you could tell he still wasn't moving all that well. He hit two big threes, but really didn't do a whole lot else except provide a huge emotional boost for the team and the fans. Most of his pain came today I imagine as the swelling set all the way in.

FreeRon · Post #17 » by **FreeRon** » Sun Jun 8, 2008 4:05 pm

Obviously the medical staff didn't feel it necessary to put him on any treatment plan. He took four Advil, which any idiot with a basic biology course would tell you not to do. You could argue that he was advised to take two and took four anyways, but if that were the case why would he be dumb enough to admit he was taking more than had been advised? If there was legitimate swelling he'd have been prescribe something as well, as Advil usually doesn't do too much for more than just everyday swelling.