Larry Bird needs to stick to his guns....

[chatard5]

I always thought Croshere was good when he got minutes. Too bad he got paid waaaay too damn much. He did show-up in the finals and got offered the money, so ya can't blame him.

[Miller4ever]

I didn't miss anything at all.

During Larry Bird's coaching tenure he was constantly in the dog house and never played much. Then zeke started coaching him and he took off and flourished.

The year Carlisle came back, yeah that was a pretty good point to make, but you're leaving out some keynote information about that season. If I recall right that was also the year of too many small forwards, six trying to play as I recall, Harrington constantly demanding to be traded, and being a good solider boy to go out and have a great season knowing they were going to honor his request to be traded to Atlanta the following summer, where Croshere was traded for Daniels and I believe Johnson was traded for Armstrong and scraps too.

Harrington and Carlisle never meshed well, they gave it a go together for 1.5 seasons. He like Artest had very choice words at the time each was traded to Sacramento and Golden State respectively towards Carlisle.

Are you then saying that Jermaine O'Neal was a bad pick for Portland?

Al was coming out of high school. Give him a few years practicing with NBA guys, he's going to have a jump in his game.

[PR07]

The year Carlisle came back, yeah that was a pretty good point to make, but you're leaving out some keynote information about that season. If I recall right that was also the year of too many small forwards, six trying to play as I recall, Harrington constantly demanding to be traded, and being a good solider boy to go out and have a great season

Who are these 6 SF's that needed playing time?

The only problem was that Harrington wanted to start which was impossible with Jermaine and Ron both on the team. As far as I recall, he never went as far as to demand a trade. The Pacers just moved him for a more natural 2 guard in Jackson, citing the primary purpose was "to match up someone with Rip Hamilton to make him have to work both offensively and defensively". As you'll remember, the Pistons were the team the Pacers couldn't quite get over the hump on. Harrington was easily the 3rd best player on that team, and he was huge in the many series against the Celtics because Artest and him were an awesome 1-2 punch guarding Paul Pierce.

[count55]

Harrington cannot be considered a miss. He's a flawed player, but he was the 25th pick in the draft and has had spectacular production for someone taken that late.

You can't even consider the two years he played under Bird as a failure, because he was just out of high school and playing for a championship contender that was two to three players deep at the forward slot.

Plus, you can't really expect to be taken seriously when you say Croshere was a "hit" while Harrington was a "miss." Harrington's career has been more successful and productive than Croshere's in every way.

Games Started: Al 426/728, Austin 88/659
MPG: Al 29.9, Austin 17.4
PPG: Al 13.8, Austin 6.8
FG%: Al .449, Austin .407
3P%: Al .359, Austin .340
FT%: Austin .861, Al .726
Rebs: Al 5.8, Austin 4.0

Hell, if we wheedle it down to the first two years of Al's career that you seem so fixated on, Al tops Austin with 5.3 pts & 2.8 rebs vs. 3.2 & 1.7 for Austin.

The proposition that Al Harrington at 25 is a "miss", while Austin Croshere at 12 is a "hit" is completely indefensible. If this was a core tenet of your original point, then your original point didn't need to be made. If not, I'd suggest you move away from this specific argument and back towards arguments that are at least vaguely rational.

[chatard5]

I was always a fan of Crosheres, even though he made too much money. My friends didn't like him, mainly because he was overpaid. That was great, though, when he thanked all the Pacer fans taking out a whole page in the IndyStar after he got traded. I was hoping he would make the team, what, last summer or 2 summers ago? I will go with last summer as my final answer.

Huh, he was signed to a 10-day contract with the Spurs this year. I missed that. He was cut after 3 games and scored 4 points. He should do that internet show with Scot Pollard. Pollard has a lot of craziness to him, maybe Croshere could add some sanity.

[cdash]

I liked Pollard. Goofy guy.

[Scoot McGroot]

I think Pollard was one of the guys that helped the team chemistry immensely, and kept the entire roster from exploding while he was here. Kind of helped the team from hitting absolute rock bottom in terms of personal interaction. He could make every single player on the roster smile and laugh. Solid guy to have around if he was cheap. We just had to pay him too much money, though.

[Charcoal Filtered]

Al was certainly not a miss. A kid coming out of high school is not going to put up huge numbers his first two years. If we go by your criteria and the Lakers changed coaches during Kobe's first two years, he would be a bust.

Besides, how can a guy be a bust and a huge lockerroom problem if Larry traded not only the exception gained in the Peja deal, but a first round pick for a second tour of duty?

As said, I am not even going to touch the rest of your argument if you seriously think Al was a bust for someone drafted in the 20's.

[chatard5]

I think Pollard was one of the guys that helped the team chemistry immensely, and kept the entire roster from exploding while he was here. Kind of helped the team from hitting absolute rock bottom in terms of personal interaction. He could make every single player on the roster smile and laugh. Solid guy to have around if he was cheap. We just had to pay him too much money, though.

Was Pollard paid a decent amount? I don't remember that. I love how he started whenever we would play Shaq. Pollard>Shaq. Hilarious.

[cdash]

Yes, he was paid a very, very decent amount.

[Gremz]

I think Pollard was one of the guys that helped the team chemistry immensely, and kept the entire roster from exploding while he was here. Kind of helped the team from hitting absolute rock bottom in terms of personal interaction. He could make every single player on the roster smile and laugh. Solid guy to have around if he was cheap. We just had to pay him too much money, though.

Was Pollard paid a decent amount? I don't remember that. I love how he started whenever we would play Shaq. Pollard>Shaq. Hilarious.

Wow, was just glancing over his career salaries. Can't believe he earned $17.3m in his three years here.

[Dunthreevy]

Harrington cannot be considered a miss. He's a flawed player, but he was the 25th pick in the draft and has had spectacular production for someone taken that late.

You can't even consider the two years he played under Bird as a failure, because he was just out of high school and playing for a championship contender that was two to three players deep at the forward slot.

Plus, you can't really expect to be taken seriously when you say Croshere was a "hit" while Harrington was a "miss." Harrington's career has been more successful and productive than Croshere's in every way.

Games Started: Al 426/728, Austin 88/659
MPG: Al 29.9, Austin 17.4
PPG: Al 13.8, Austin 6.8
FG%: Al .449, Austin .407
3P%: Al .359, Austin .340
FT%: Austin .861, Al .726
Rebs: Al 5.8, Austin 4.0

Hell, if we wheedle it down to the first two years of Al's career that you seem so fixated on, Al tops Austin with 5.3 pts & 2.8 rebs vs. 3.2 & 1.7 for Austin.

The proposition that Al Harrington at 25 is a "miss", while Austin Croshere at 12 is a "hit" is completely indefensible. If this was a core tenet of your original point, then your original point didn't need to be made. If not, I'd suggest you move away from this specific argument and back towards arguments that are at least vaguely rational.

*debate dead*

[Scoot McGroot]

Yes, he was paid a very, very decent amount.

It wasn't decent at all....it was highly obscene!!!!!!

[Charcoal Filtered]

Here is the last 20 years of picks at #25. Not too many guys any team would rather have over Al.


1 25 25 1989 John Morton SG Seton Hall
1 25 25 1990 Alaa Abdelnaby PF Duke
1 25 25 1991 Shaun Vandiver PF Colorado
1 25 25 1992 Elmore Spencer C UNLV
1 25 25 1993 Corie Blount PF Cincinnati
1 25 25 1994 Greg Minor SG Louisville
1 25 25 1995 David Vaughn PF Memphis St.
1 25 25 1996 Martin Muursepp SF (Estonia)
1 25 25 1997 John Thomas PF Minnesota
1 25 25 1998 Al Harrington SF (High School)
1 25 25 1999 Tim James SF Miami (FL)
1 25 25 2000 Iakovos Tsakalidis C (Greece)
1 25 25 2001 Gerald Wallace SF/SG Alabama
1 25 25 2002 Frank Williams PG Illinois
1 25 25 2003 Carlos Delfino SG (Italy)
1 25 25 2004 Tony Allen SG Oklahoma State
1 25 25 2005 Johan Petro C (France)
1 25 25 2006 Shannon Brown SG Michigan State
1 25 25 2007 Morris Almond SG Rice
1 25 25 2008 Nicolas Batum SF (France)

[chatard5]

Ooh yeah, the sign-and-trade with Brad Miller.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/overpaidnba.html

Ouch, some of those are ROUGH.