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Marquis for Scala rumor???

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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#61 » by indy_dave00 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:22 am

There is a chance Travis Diener could be sent with Marquis Daniels in a trade for Tony Allen, Bill Walker and Gabe Pruitt. This could be part of the reason the Pacers will wait until the Earl Watson signing becomes official before doing the Daniels deal- IF they indeed do it at all.
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#62 » by greenway84 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:28 am

^
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#63 » by PR07 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:38 am

Acquiring, Allen, Walker, and Pruitt seems a bit redundant. I'm for the Pacers making a S&T with the Celts, but is there anyway to replace Pruitt with a S&T of Mikki Moore. I'd like to see Daniels+Diener for Allen, Walker, and Moore to fill out the roster. Of course, then you have to reach a buy-out with the tinman. I really like Bill Walker. Athletically, not many are in the same class...and he has the toolset to be almost a force defensively like Artest in on the wing.

ford/watson/price
rush/jones/allen
granger/dunleavy/walker
murphy/hansbrough/mcroberts
hibbert/foster/moore
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#64 » by blueandgold » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:04 am

I like it. If we left Deiner out and Moore; is there another or better Center pick up later?
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#65 » by StreetBaller905 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:58 am

i kind of like the deal because scala is gritty and allen is more athletic then daniels and can actually stay on the court its a solid move
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#66 » by Mr.Monday Night » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:26 am

celtic fan here weighing in... If it's true that you are getting Tony Allen, this is what you should expect.. His defense is wayyy overrated.. I don't know how many times I saw him last season commiting a stupid foul on a 3 point shooter shooting a 3, or trying to dribble too much with the ball and bouncing it off his foot out of bounds, or committing an offensive foul because when he drives he barrels his head down and runs right through you, but i know its ALOT. He is also wildly inconsistent, and not just from a game to game basis but even a play to play basis. One minute he is ripping the PG straight up for a layup, next minute he falls for a pump-fake and gets burnt like toast. Another problem he has is that after he blew out his knee with the meaningless dunk after the whistle a few seasons ago, he was never the same in regards to aggressiveness. seems as though he is afraid to take it to the hole strong and dunk on someone's head not because he doesn't have the leaping ability, but because he is scared to hurt his knee again. He settles too much for layups in traffic which usually get rejected. Although he's noat as aggresive in taking it to the hole and dunking on someone, he still has an extroadinarly awesome first step, which you can see flashes of from time to time on both offense and defense. People say he has decent handles, but I have no idea what Tony Allen they were watching. Whenever he would get the ball and take it to the hoop I would cringe, sensing a turnover (And I was usually right). He gets ripped alot when he goes to the rim because he puts his head down and he can't see defenders sneak up on him (or defenders rotating for help defense either). I think partly the reason he didn't do so well in our system is because we are in Championship mode, and we can't afford a careless unforced turnover when the game is on the line. In a rebuilding team like yours, I think he will do alot better because he won't have to be worried about getting subbed out immediately on making a bad mistake, and it should give him more confidence and that should help him significantly.
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#67 » by Papa Irish31 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:02 am

I scrolled through the bunch of the comments and saw a lot about how a s&t would be a bad deal for the pacers and some comments that could basically be summed up as, why would we trade for the useless white or the (Please Use More Appropriate Word) trouble maker, and to be fair as a celtic fan, scal is probably useless on a lower level team and i do question myself whether tony allen is in fact (Please Use More Appropriate Word)

BUT i would look at it this way if i were a pacer fan, you are getting something back for a guy that is leaving anyway, so you are doing two things

A. helping a former player/employee get a bigger payday - something that future players that are borderline on signing with the pacers will certainly look favorably on

and more importantly B. you are possibly acquiring 1 to two expiring contracts, even though it is adding salary and taking away some ability to sign players the rest of the offseason, it adds a valuable asset to your team

if yall somehow got scal and tony, that would add around 6 mil in expiring contracts (which you have none of by the way)

now think to mid season, and around the trade deadline when yall are battling it out with the bobcats, pistons, raptors, and hawks for the 8th seed and you need one more player to put you over the top, those expiring contracts give you the flexibility to add another quality player and put you over the hump

that would be the reason completes a s&t for scal or tony, and if you think about it boston is helping him out more than the other way around, after all quisy is willing to come to boston either way
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#68 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:31 pm

We're not wasting money just to add expiring contracts.

If we don't like the player, on the contract they're on, then we have a fiduciary responsibility to NOT assist our former player in getting a "bigger payday". We're not going to hurt ourselves financially by acquiring 2 larger expiring contracts when we could go out and sign a couple guys to 1 year deals for much cheaper, and save around $4 million in cash, and stay away from the luxury tax. Much better for our team to save almost $10 million or so in all likelihood.
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#69 » by Papa Irish31 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:26 pm

Really? you are going to go find two quality players for the mid level exception? im pretty sure earl watson is going to put a dent in that plan; ok though you take the couple of guys that you could sign for cheap this offseason

and ill hold on to the expiring contracts, which mid season, when teams with financial trouble are out of it are going to be looking to shed big deals; all of a sudden it looks a whole lot better to sacramento to only pay a half years salary for tony allen and brian scalabrine, then to have nocioni's contract on the books for four more years, or golden state, who will likely be out of it might be looking to clear up some minutes for there talented young players and save money while doing it, so corey magette or stephen jackson could be had, or maybe some other guys they have like bellineli or azibuki; and not to mention new orleans, heck if you had another expiring deal you could probably get tyson chandler

trust me there is much more value to be had on the market at the trade deadline when you have expiring deals to dangle in front of teams, and way more value than the low level free agents that are left out there
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#70 » by BRUNiNHO91 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:51 pm

StreetBaller905 wrote:i kind of like the deal because scala is gritty and allen is more athletic then daniels and can actually stay on the court its a solid move


You know the Allen mentioned in the trade, is TONY ALLEN..and not RAY ALLEN..right?? :lol:
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#71 » by Boneman2 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:01 pm

Papa Irish31 wrote:Really? you are going to go find two quality players for the mid level exception? im pretty sure earl watson is going to put a dent in that plan; ok though you take the couple of guys that you could sign for cheap this offseason

and ill hold on to the expiring contracts, which mid season, when teams with financial trouble are out of it are going to be looking to shed big deals; all of a sudden it looks a whole lot better to sacramento to only pay a half years salary for tony allen and brian scalabrine, then to have nocioni's contract on the books for four more years, or golden state, who will likely be out of it might be looking to clear up some minutes for there talented young players and save money while doing it, so corey magette or stephen jackson could be had, or maybe some other guys they have like bellineli or azibuki; and not to mention new orleans, heck if you had another expiring deal you could probably get tyson chandler

trust me there is much more value to be had on the market at the trade deadline when you have expiring deals to dangle in front of teams, and way more value than the low level free agents that are left out there


I don't want Noccioni, Maggette and lol... JAX. Are you serious. Like we'd actually want to flip expiring deals into that crap. Ultimately an expiring will die with us.
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#72 » by Papa Irish31 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:23 pm

if you dont want good players i guess thats fine
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#73 » by Dunthreevy » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:30 pm

Papa Irish31 wrote:if you dont want good players i guess thats fine


Decent players with horrible contracts do not equal good players
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#74 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:57 pm

Papa Irish31 wrote:Really? you are going to go find two quality players for the mid level exception? im pretty sure earl watson is going to put a dent in that plan; ok though you take the couple of guys that you could sign for cheap this offseason

and ill hold on to the expiring contracts, which mid season, when teams with financial trouble are out of it are going to be looking to shed big deals; all of a sudden it looks a whole lot better to sacramento to only pay a half years salary for tony allen and brian scalabrine, then to have nocioni's contract on the books for four more years, or golden state, who will likely be out of it might be looking to clear up some minutes for there talented young players and save money while doing it, so corey magette or stephen jackson could be had, or maybe some other guys they have like bellineli or azibuki; and not to mention new orleans, heck if you had another expiring deal you could probably get tyson chandler

trust me there is much more value to be had on the market at the trade deadline when you have expiring deals to dangle in front of teams, and way more value than the low level free agents that are left out there



Do you understand what the salary cap/luxury tax is?


Ok. We're close to the luxury tax. We've used up most of our MLE on Dahntay Jones and Earl Watson, leaving us with a roster of:

Ford/Watson/Diener/Price/Tinsley
Rush/Jones
Granger/Dunleavy
Murphy/Hansbrough/McRoberts
Foster/Hibbert

That's 13 players. Not including Daniels. If we trade Daniels to you while taking on 3 players in return, we have to cut at least 1 of them (2 if we haven't bought out Tinsley by then). All 3 of them are possibly temporarily 2nd string until Dunleavy comes back, and then they're 3rd string. The problem is, you're talking about Indy taking on Allen, Pruitt, and Walker. Pruitt and Walker are fine as they'd be normally paid for 3rd string type developmental players. They're not the issue. Scalabrine, however, would be 3rd/4th string, but put us in the luxury tax territory. Tony Allen, would be 3rd string, but put us right UP to the luxury tax without even factoring in the other guys.


Instead, we could let you guys sign Daniels outright, and then let the 1 or 2 best developmental guys make the roster in training camp for a salary of $450 grand or possibly $900 grand. That immediately saves us almost $2 million, and keeps us out of the luxury tax. Understand?


And, in order to utilize "expiring contracts", you have to package them together with enough salary to make a deal work, and add value to entice someone to dump someone useful.

So, go ahead and keep those guys, and trade them at the deadline for a Rafer Alston. We'll stay under the luxury tax, and keep building the team the right way.


This isn't to mean that we don't want Pruitt and Walker. They're nice players. I'm just damn sure that we don't want to take on Brian Scalabrine to get them, nor do we want to go into the luxury tax to get them.

Capiche?
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#75 » by Dunthreevy » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:03 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Papa Irish31 wrote:Really? you are going to go find two quality players for the mid level exception? im pretty sure earl watson is going to put a dent in that plan; ok though you take the couple of guys that you could sign for cheap this offseason

and ill hold on to the expiring contracts, which mid season, when teams with financial trouble are out of it are going to be looking to shed big deals; all of a sudden it looks a whole lot better to sacramento to only pay a half years salary for tony allen and brian scalabrine, then to have nocioni's contract on the books for four more years, or golden state, who will likely be out of it might be looking to clear up some minutes for there talented young players and save money while doing it, so corey magette or stephen jackson could be had, or maybe some other guys they have like bellineli or azibuki; and not to mention new orleans, heck if you had another expiring deal you could probably get tyson chandler

trust me there is much more value to be had on the market at the trade deadline when you have expiring deals to dangle in front of teams, and way more value than the low level free agents that are left out there



Do you understand what the salary cap/luxury tax is?


Ok. We're close to the luxury tax. We've used up most of our MLE on Dahntay Jones and Earl Watson, leaving us with a roster of:

Ford/Watson/Diener/Price/Tinsley
Rush/Jones
Granger/Dunleavy
Murphy/Hansbrough/McRoberts
Foster/Hibbert

That's 13 players. Not including Daniels. If we trade Daniels to you while taking on 3 players in return, we have to cut at least 1 of them (2 if we haven't bought out Tinsley by then). All 3 of them are possibly temporarily 2nd string until Dunleavy comes back, and then they're 3rd string. The problem is, you're talking about Indy taking on Allen, Pruitt, and Walker. Pruitt and Walker are fine as they'd be normally paid for 3rd string type developmental players. They're not the issue. Scalabrine, however, would be 3rd/4th string, but put us in the luxury tax territory. Tony Allen, would be 3rd string, but put us right UP to the luxury tax without even factoring in the other guys.


Instead, we could let you guys sign Daniels outright, and then let the 1 or 2 best developmental guys make the roster in training camp for a salary of $450 grand or possibly $900 grand. That immediately saves us almost $2 million, and keeps us out of the luxury tax. Understand?


And, in order to utilize "expiring contracts", you have to package them together with enough salary to make a deal work, and add value to entice someone to dump someone useful.

So, go ahead and keep those guys, and trade them at the deadline for a Rafer Alston. We'll stay under the luxury tax, and keep building the team the right way.


This isn't to mean that we don't want Pruitt and Walker. They're nice players. I'm just damn sure that we don't want to take on Brian Scalabrine to get them, nor do we want to go into the luxury tax to get them.

Capiche?


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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#76 » by Wizop » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:35 pm

in other words, an expiring contract isn't so great when what you had to begin with was an expired contract. all we need to do to get an expiring contract is to sign a free agent to a one year contract. trading for some other team's player with one year left on his contract is only a good deal if the player can play better than what is available on the free agent market for the same money.
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#77 » by basketballwacko2 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:41 pm

Papa Irish31 wrote:if you dont want good players i guess thats fine



I don't know if you remember that we had Stephen Jackson and wanted him out of town so bad we were willing to trade him for anything who was't him. Kinda like we want to move Jamaal Tinsley, how about this we do, give you Daniels and Tinsley for Scala, Allen, Eddie House and a stack of dirty towels! :lol:
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#78 » by Slartibartfast » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:07 am

How did you guys ever end up with so many PGs?
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Re: Marquis for Scala rumor??? 

Post#79 » by freeman » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:05 am

Slartibartfast wrote:How did you guys ever end up with so many PGs?


I think it's Larry's way of "making up" for the loss of Jarrett Jack.
Right now, there's only three with guaranteed contracts. Ford, Watson, and Diener.
Price is still un-signed, but i think Larry wants him to be in the active roster once the season starts.
Though i know some people would still say we need am upgrade over Ford, i think this is already a pretty good rotation.
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