Reggie denied first shot at HOF ballot

[captaincrunk]

It doesn't matter if he isn't a first ballot hall of famer. IRRELEVANT.

What matters is if he is a guy who at least belongs on the ballot. I think it's pretty obvious he does.

Agreed that what makes this insulting to Pacers fans is not the first-ballot thing but that he isn't even on the ballot. Any reasonable person can see that he should at least be on the ballot.

I'll concede that there are reasonable people who don't think he should be a first-ballot HOFer. Frankly, I don't get the stigma attached to the first-time ballot. If there are no better candidates to be on this year's ballot--and among former NBA players, there aren't--then why shouldn't Reggie Miller at least be on the ballot? But that's just me.

Maybe it's because his career only ended like 5 years ago and they feel it's premature? I honestly don't know.

[mizzoupacers]

The basketball hall of fame has released its list of finalists for this year's ballot:

Maurice Cheeks, Chris Mullin, Dennis Rodman, Keith Wilkes, Ralph Sampson

Miller was probably better than any of them, although comparing him to someone like Rodman is like comparing apples to orange hair.

Sampson must be on there as a college player (it's the BASKETBALL hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame). He played fewer than 500 NBA games and averaged 15.4/8.8.

The only way that Miller not being on the ballot makes any sense is if first-year eligibles are held to a different standard than guys who have been up for consideration in past years. But I guess that is how institution-think works sometimes.

[Indy2thaWindy]

I didn't even like Reggie, but Mullin? Cheeks? Rodman? Sampson? Who the **** is Keith Wilkes?

[floppymoose]

Mullin belongs in the hall. It's not the NBA hof. It's the basketball hof.

Edit: heh, I see mizzou made the same point above

[Indy2thaWindy]

Miller was probably better than any of them, although comparing him to someone like Rodman is like comparing apples to orange hair.

[mizzoupacers]

Who the **** is Keith Wilkes?

Sorry...Jamaal Wilkes. He went by "Keith" in college at UCLA. I am showing my age...

[Indy2thaWindy]

Who the **** is Keith Wilkes?

Sorry...Jamaal Wilkes. He went by "Keith" in college at UCLA. I am showing my age...

oh, my bad

[Boneman2]

That's the thing he does not deserve to be on the ballot. What has he accomplished in his NBA career? Hanging out for 18 seasons in not enough.

Call it what you want but what you don't understand is that Reggie was not a selfish player, until it mattered most. When the playoffs arrived Reggie transformed into a selfish player, and I mean that in a good way, a fact backed up by the fact his ppg average jumped more in the playoffs than anyone else in league history (+7ppg). The fact this is so impressive is because the # of playoff games he played in. Reggie could've averaged 25 ppg, if he chose to do so, and he proved it in the playoffs.

Scottie Pippen was quoted as saying the 98' Pacers were the toughest team they'd ever faced.

The beauty about Reggie is that he'd have 24 pts on 12-14 shots, almost nightly.

Reggie took the Pacers to 18 playoff appearances in 20 seasons, 5 ECF's & the 2000 finals. He put the Pacers on his frail shoulders, and struck fear into the opposing fans. He dared opposing arenas to give him his spinach, if you heard the chant "Reggie Sucks", that meant your ass, happened all the time, especially at MSG. Reggie has just as much clout in that arena, as MJ. You put them both in that building and eventually the chant will consume you.

Maybe the haters would've respected him more if he would've went to the Knicks.

Indy2TW, did you watch the Pacers in the 90's?

[TSC25]

Mullin belongs in the hall. It's not the NBA hof. It's the basketball hof.

Edit: heh, I see mizzou made the same point above

you are correct it is the basketball hall of fame,not just the nba,and so only did reggie help lead his team to 6 conference finals,and one nba final he held the record for most 3 pointers,was a very good free throw shooter,and won a world basket ball championship,and gold medal,and ment alot more to basketball than ralph sampson,so i feel drsimp12 is wrong about him not deserving to be on the ballot,he might not have deserved to make it his 1st year,but he did deserve to be on the ballot over a few others

[zapatasblood]

Reggie is my favorite player after The Dream and Drexler but there are others that have been waiting that should go ahead of him.

[Indy2thaWindy]

Indy2TW, did you watch the Pacers in the 90's?

Sometimes. I liked Travis Best and Jalen Rose.

I moved here in the late 90's.

I liked the Celtics back then tho. Walker and Pierce were my favorite players. So I tried to watch them more than anybody. It wasn't easy like it is today.

[Miller4ever]

Man, so you've had to suffer through Obie ball twice as a fan...

[Boneman2]

^^^ Misery.

Indy2tw, If you would've followed Reggie more closely, I am sure you would've been a huge fan.

Either you loved him or you hated him. He was a hero here in Indy, and a true villian everywhere else.

[Indy2thaWindy]

^^^ Misery.

Indy2tw, If you would've followed Reggie more closely, I am sure you would've been a huge fan.

Either you loved him or you hated him. He was a hero here in Indy, and a true villian everywhere else.

I just didn't like him when he played, I like him a lot more now.

Man, so you've had to suffer through Obie ball twice as a fan...

I didn't think he was that bad of a coach until 2 seasons ago. That's when he lost his mind.

[PR07]

I wouldn't have had a problem had Reggie not gotten voted in, but the fact that he's not a even finalist given the players that are, is ridiculous. Both Mullin and Rodman were very good players, but you can't tell me that either meant more for any of their teams or city than Reggie did. The whole "he hasn't paid his dues and needs to wait" thing is nonsense too. This is just another reason why the basketball hall of fame is the worst out of football and baseball too.

[mizzoupacers]

OK, I got irked with people over on the General Discussion Board claiming that Miller was just another Rip Hamilton, so I posted the following. Thought our board might like to see it too.

He was simiilar to Rip Hamilton who led the Pistons in scoring

I don't mean to single out any one post, but several previous posts have expressed the opinion that Reggie Miller was pretty much the same as Rip Hamilton. Not true!

Hamilton, in his twelfth NBA season, has a career average of 17.7 points per game. Miller's career average was 18.2. And he averaged 19.7 through his first twelve seasons.

Miller's career shooting pcts., FG/3 pt./FT, were .471/.395/.888 (that free-throw pct. is ninth-best in NBA history). Hamilton's are .450/.347/.852, and more likely to decline the longer he keeps playing.

Miller's career True Shooting Pct. was .614 (sixth-best in NBA history). Hamilton's is .527 (below the top 250 all-time).

Miller's career Win Shares per 48 Minutes was .176. Hamilton's is .106. The "average" NBA player would have a Win Share of .100, so Hamilton is just slightly above average, while Miller is 76 pct. above average. Miller is 46th all-time in this category; of the 45 players ahead of him, 42 are either in the Hall of Fame or still active. Hamilton, again, is below the top 250.

Miller's career Offensive Rating (estimated points produced per 100 possessions) was 120 (he led the NBA in this category four times). Hamilton's is 106 (he's never led the league) and, again, increasingly likely to decline the longer he continues to play.

(All figures courtesy of http://www.basketball-reference.com)

Then there's this: in Miller's twelfth season, he led the league in True Shooting Pct. and was the best player on a team that went to the East Conference finals. In Hamilton's twelfth season, he is feuding with his coach and mostly sitting on the bench. Which makes it seem pretty unlikely to me that Hamilton will play another six NBA seasons, especially six seasons anywhere near as good as Miller's last six years. The truly amazing thing about Miller's career, other than that he was one of the all-time great shooters, was that he managed to remain so productive into his sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth years--something very, very few other players have ever been able to do. (Seems to me that longevity on that level is a really strong argument FOR being a Hall-of-Famer, rather than the case against that some in this thread seem to be trying to make it out to be.)

None of this is intended as a slight to Richard Hamilton. He's been a terrific NBA player. But Reggie Miller was better, for longer.

[Miller4ever]

I love basketball reference. If you look into the numbers, the statistics support Miller's legitimacy as an HOF candidate, even though his HOF chances on that site are squat. He might not have generated a lot of offense himself, but he generated a lot of offense for the whole team just by being on the floor and being the threat he was.

A lot of people don't understand what the HOF is supposed to mean, and I think that includes the HOF voters. I agree that baseball and football have it better.

[mizzoupacers]

I love basketball reference. If you look into the numbers, the statistics support Miller's legitimacy as an HOF candidate, even though his HOF chances on that site are squat.

It's a great site. But you're right, it gives a "Hall of Fame Probability" figure for Miller of 0.055, which is between slim and none. However, you have to understand what the figure is based on: a correlation study of the variables most likely to coincide with HOF enshrinement. Turns out the most significant variables include some bizarre ones such as a player's height (believe it or not, a higher percentage of short players than tall players are HOFers; I guess that means short guys don't play in the NBA unless they are pretty damn good!) Other significant variables include some stuff that works against Miller, such as All-Star appearances and championships won. As the site's owner says of the "Hall of Fame Probability" stat, "Keep in mind that my goal was not to determine who SHOULD BE in the Hall of Fame, but who is LIKELY TO BE in the Hall of Fame."

He might not have generated a lot of offense himself...

Not true! Look again at the Offensive Rating stat. It estimates how many points per possession a player produces, which is probably a better measure of generating offense than PPG is, because it controls for number of possessions (including number of possessions you COST your team by missing shots). Miller led the league in Offensive Rating four times! You don't do that unless you are an elite offensive player.

[Miller4ever]

Allow me to clarify. When I say generate a lot of offense, I mean put up 25+ PPG career.

[Shootdabull]

Being on the other end of those Miller's shot I really think he should be on the ballot. I was surprised to hear he was not on the ballot. When I think back to the Jordan era he definately one of the players I remember well. He was great running off screens and hitting difficult shots. He was one of the most active offensive players I remember. I'm not sure if he will get in but he definately should be a candidate in my eyes. Good luck Reggie!