I'm a little worried

GrandBasterd · Post #1 » by **GrandBasterd** » Thu Dec 5, 2013 7:15 pm

Here's my concern:
The Pacers are relying so heavily on the mid-range jumper, the most inefficient shot. PG's game this year is primarily MR, seems like West and Scola both prefer the shot from a few feet inside the arc, and even Hibbert is taking these long two's this year.
Is this going to come back to bite them?
I'd love to see west post up more, and I think Hill has got to get more open three looks. He's lights out.

GrandBasterd · Post #2 » by **GrandBasterd** » Thu Dec 5, 2013 8:01 pm

Just looked up some stats for this.
They are near the bottom in points in paint.
20th in points from 3.
15th in offensive efficiency.

EuroPacer · Post #3 » by **EuroPacer** » Thu Dec 5, 2013 8:10 pm

I'm not. Firstly, the stats you post are offensive stats, we rely on defense.

Secondly, Hibbert provides enough of an inside threat to ensure that the opponent stays honest inside.

Thirdly: welcome to the forum, hope you hang around

mikepacernation · Post #4 » by **mikepacernation** » Thu Dec 5, 2013 11:01 pm

But what happens when we have to rely on our offense cause we aren't able to stop that teams offense that night? Like a OKC team or Houston?

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

EuroPacer · Post #5 » by **EuroPacer** » Thu Dec 5, 2013 11:08 pm

mikepacernation wrote:But what happens when we have to rely on our offense cause we aren't able to stop that teams offense that night? Like a OKC team or Houston?

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

If we aren't able to stop an offensive team we have a serious problem. The biggest weakness in the way we play (note that I don't think it is a weakness in the squad) is that our offense is sketchy. There are few games this season where I felt that we could outscore an opponent, however I always felt we could out-defend them.

GrandBasterd · Post #6 » by **GrandBasterd** » Fri Dec 6, 2013 2:11 am

EuroPacer wrote:
Thirdly: welcome to the forum, hope you hang around

Thanks Euro! I'll be sticking around. I've been looking for a good forum. While Reddits NBA forum is real active, the Pacers one is real dead. As I'm Typing this, It's gonna take me a bit to be efficient in posting here, I'm trying to respond to multiple posts without posting multiple times..I'll figure it out.

That's a good point mikepacernation.

Obviously we can't ask for any improvement defensively. They are the best. But with title aspirations, I just think there is vast improvement offensively to be made, and I feel that that improvement is pretty easily done. If you just trade all those mid range Scola, West, and Hibbert shots, for the near 40% 3pt shooting of Hill, George and Watson, you instantly have better offense. Not only should that generate more points, but those other players FG% should rise because their points are coming from the post.
A step further:
We have 3 players who can drive effectively to the basket in Lance, PG and Hill (4 if you include CJ). If they would just drive and go to the basket/get fouled/kick, that's a much better formula than mid range J's. I think we have all the tools to be a real efficient offense, and I don't see any reason with a young smart head coach we aren't fully taking advantage of this.

GrandBasterd · Post #7 » by **GrandBasterd** » Fri Dec 6, 2013 2:19 am

Houston last year was 6th in offensive efficiency and they are third this year, and from a rockets fan, I've heard that they just drive and kick, drive and kick, drive and kick, till they get a good 3, a layup, or a foul. I think we have the players to do more of that kind of basketball.

mikepacernation · Post #8 » by **mikepacernation** » Fri Dec 6, 2013 4:11 am

The person I don't mind shooting the mid range is scola and George. I've seen hibbert try and shoot to many mid range shots and would like to see west drive and make shots too!

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Wizop · Post #9 » by **Wizop** » Fri Dec 6, 2013 3:18 pm

I'm trying to respond to multiple posts without posting multiple times..I'll figure it out.

no need to double post in the same thread. all of the regulars will read all of the messages. now if you need to quote things from different people, then it might be easiest to post multiple messages as long as you don't just repeat yourself, but you can use the quote option and then cut it to the clipboard and paste it into a reply that quotes a different message. you can also delete portions of the quotations that aren't necessary to put your reply into context.

We have 3 players who can drive effectively to the basket in Lance, PG and Hill (4 if you include CJ). If they would just drive and go to the basket/get fouled/kick, that's a much better formula than mid range J's.

I don't think it is that simple. unless you want Hibbert playing a high post where he'll have to take 15 footers, Roy is going to be clogging up the middle leaving no lanes for drivers. which is not to say that pushing the ball and driving in early offense isn't a good thing. Lance is great at that. besides both West and Scola are good shooters who can drive after shot fakes.

personally, I find it hard to worry given our record even if we lose in SA and OKC. but I'm a glass is half full guy.

Moooose · Post #10 » by **Moooose** » Sat Dec 7, 2013 11:03 am

I too think that the Pacers have somewhat mellowed down in trying to score in the post. They indeed rely heavily on midrange jumpers this year but I do not see it as a problem.. well at least for now. The jumpers are working fine and George has really improved his mid range, and West and Scola are reliable in that range.

I am not worried because we have West and Scola who are capable post players. And Hibbert is a good option too, with his improved footwork in the post. West, Scola, and Hibbert can post up whenever needed. Maybe Vogel is just trying not to make it a staple offensive routine to somehow lighten the burden on our bigs as we will need them healthy in the postseason. So far so good I would say. Lance's ability to create for himself is a big help in freeing up the need to go to the post for offense.

GrandBasterd · Post #11 » by **GrandBasterd** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:59 am

Ok. After thinking about it some more, I'm way more ok with the offense. The area that they are scoring from isn't the most ideal, however it's not like these west, Scola, and even Hibbert shots are contested jumpers. These are set shots like you would make in HORSE (except for the west fade aways). And Scola is shooting over 50% so there's that.

Wizop · Post #12 » by **Wizop** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:29 pm

you might also want to think of the mid-range shots we are getting as free throws. if you watched last nights Heat game though, you saw how we adjusted to take advantage of Hibbert's hooks. taking the shots the defense makes available is not anything to worry about.

EuroPacer · Post #13 » by **EuroPacer** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:13 pm

Wizop wrote:you might also want to think of the mid-range shots we are getting as free throws. if you watched last nights Heat game though, you saw how we adjusted to take advantage of Hibbert's hooks. taking the shots the defense makes available is not anything to worry about.

Yeah the great thing about the way we are currently set is that we have multiple offensive weapons available and Vogel is doing a great job in selecting the right offense for each opponent. This should of course not be a surprise considering he is a video guy by heart

Post #14 » by **Nuntius** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:28 am

I think that mid-range jumpers take too much unecessary flak at times. Not every mid-range jumper is a bad shot.

Here is a video with some mid-range jumpers that are bad shots:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZFyQJ-JaLM[/youtube]

Look at shots 2, 3, 7 and 9. All of them are contested pull-up jumpers. Those are the bad mid-range jumpers that have a low percentage of going in.

Now, here some videos of some mid-range jumpers that are good shots:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5julvtmDGQ[/youtube]

[YouTube][http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlTsA_1ScNU/YouTube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3ACOOAJf_I[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6yCwL9Qods[/youtube]

All of those jumpers are good shots. There is a major difference between those shots and the shots that Beasly attempted in the first video.

The difference here is that a pick and pop is a set play that is designed to create an open jumper. The shot that is created tends to be an open shot and the player that is usually screening can hit that shot. Therefore, it is a relatively high percentage shot.

Beasley's shots were mostly a result of ISOs and most of them were contested. And that's exactly why he missed them.

Post #15 » by **Miller4ever** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:44 am

What's more important is that instead of excelling in one or two areas, we're threats from all areas. We are around league average in almost every category except rebounding and defense, where we are the cream of the crop. We can score in every possible way with enough efficacy that by that fact alone defenses have a harder time defending us. What's more important is to look at differentials. We don't have the most assists in the league, around 20th or whatever, but we are #1 in assists allowed.

We are a jack-of-all-trades offense. Our passing doesn't always end up being counted as assists, but every guy on the court is a willing passer. Those two things in tandem don't necessarily show up in stats, but when paired up with an all-world defense, there isn't much to worry about.