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Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave

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Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#1 » by boomershadow » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:43 pm

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/09/26/paul-george-opens-up-being-traded-embracing-oklahoma-city-and-his-future/703277001/

I just want to touch on, man, on my situation. I've seen a guy that played for that (Pacers) organization, gave that organization everything they had, or everything he had, and was essentially traded to the dogs. And I'm speaking on Danny Granger, who was one of the better players in Pacers history. And at the time, they traded him to the Philadelphia 76ers. And this was a guy that was battling injuries, and that's where you send him?


I don't entirely think he's wrong. There were a number of things that Larry Bird did in the last few years that seemed almost designed to make sure Paul George wouldn't want to stay here in free agency. I said it when it all happened. Eventually, we didn't even get to the end of the contract before he wanted out. And why shouldn't he? The Granger Trade. Not getting Lance re-signed. Public comments against Hibbert. Driving David West to sign elsewhere. Trying to force PG to play out of position. Firing his coach. Trading his best friend on the team. It all adds up.

It is my strong opinion that, even if Paul George didn't always give us 100% of what we wanted out of him or handle himself perfectly during adversity, our organization did a bad job of either keeping a team around him that could win or making sure PG was involved in deciding the franchise's direction and personally invested enough in the outcome to stay. And in today's NBA you have to do both of those in order to keep a superstar level player. I think Kevin Pritchard already seems like he's doing a better job of that with our current crop of players, and that's going to be especially important if either Myles Turner or Victor Oladipo make the kind of strides we hope they do.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#2 » by Pacersike » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:25 pm

I understand why some of things Larry Bird has done, bothered Paul George. Larry is very old school.
But if I had to pick a side, I would pick Larry's.

Granger was always hurt and when he was healthy, he was playing very poorly or poorly. Every smart basketball fan knows when a veteran player like Danny Granger (expiring contract I think) gets traded to a deep lottery team, there is a decent chance he can negotiate a buyout and another team of his desire to play for. To the dogs? Not true and Granger's game at that time was not good enough for 2 seasons in a row. Larry Bird was still patient to wait so long IMO. Is Paul George being patient to wait for Turner's full development? I don't think so.

Paul George wanted help, Larry Bird trades a non producing player to try to get some help. Paul George complains about the non producing player that got traded? That makes little sense, unless you dig into why Paul was really upset by the Granger trade.
Danny Granger brought mental toughness and leadership to the team. Together with David West. Together with Hibbert who was mentally tough with ups and downs to finish with a blackhole down.

The moment Paul George had to take over as the leader of the team, it got messy. Did Bird had to trade Paul George? Yes.
But because Paul George is a great player, other sacrifices had to be made to try to get it going again. Vogel had to go. George Hill had to go. Maybe Larry Bird was trying to make Paul George a good leader, but it didn't work out. Very much the opposite of Kyrie Irving, Paul George is actually very happy to have 2 more talented scorers on his team.

The problem IMO has always been Paul George and his mental toughness. He doesn't want to wait for Myles Turner to become a possible Allstar, simple because he doesn't want to lead Turner and other teammates. That was his main frustration on the Pacers: he felt uncomfy being the leader. Sure, Larry Bird got him some poo poo help, but the Pacers barely made the playoffs 2 years in a row, with 2 different and good coaches Vogel and McMillan, 2 different and good point guards Teague and Hill, 2 different and good centers Mahinmi and Turner, CJ Miles, who many say we are going to miss. Thad Young. These are all good enough pieces to do better than the 7th seed, because after Lebron, PG was 1 of the best players in the East. Even with a flawed roster made up by Bird, they should have been able to do better than the 7 and 8th seed with a player like Paul George.

Chemistry also happens when guys are comfy and want to play hard and with eachother. Not only when players have matching skillsets. As it seems, Paul George felt uncomfy long before his trade demand. That IMO hurt us more than players with the same skillsets or a handful of turds on our roster.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#3 » by Pacersike » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:40 pm

Also, Bird didn't consult Paul George multiple times.

A normal reaction you expect from a superstar is that the superstar walks into the GM's office and let's the GM know he wants to be consulted next time. (without saying "or... I'm gone as soon as I can"). If Larry Bird can be blamed for not consulting PG, Paul can also be blamed for not speaking up against Bird. Maybe he did that but that is when he should have told Bird he wants to be traded.
All Paul did, was complain to the media. That's kind of his personality I guess, avoiding confrontations, hugging Lebron as much as he can, shooting 0-15 when it really matters.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#4 » by Pacersike » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:45 pm

boomershadow wrote:I don't entirely think he's wrong. There were a number of things that Larry Bird did in the last few years that seemed almost designed to make sure Paul George wouldn't want to stay here in free agency. I said it when it all happened. Eventually, we didn't even get to the end of the contract before he wanted out. And why shouldn't he? The Granger Trade. Not getting Lance re-signed. Public comments against Hibbert. Driving David West to sign elsewhere. Trying to force PG to play out of position. Firing his coach. Trading his best friend on the team. It all adds up.

What is worse? Forcing a player to play 1 preseason game at the 4 and after that accepting he doesn't want to do that again or
forcing your coach mid season, when Thad Young was out, to look for other options playing against smallball teams, while saying "whatever it takes, I'll do whatever it takes to win games", while being the best possible option to replace Thad. Crowder, Gallinari, Chandler, Amir Johnson, none of them you can compare with Anthony Davis, who can play center himself.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1543207

The only thing that bothered me about the whole playing the 4 thing is Larry Bird saying "he don't make the decisions around here".
The idea itself made a lot of sense because Paul is a shaky ballhandler, but star players should have something to say and a solution could have been that Paul only had to play the 4 when the other player was about his height. Paul whiped it completely off the table though. That bothered me even more.

There is a reason politicians are mostly old people with very brightminded young exceptions. Most people get smarter when they grow up. If you don't want to consider playing the 4 for more than just 1 game and accept that your coach and GM have a lot more life/basketball experience than you, and possibly also a better look on what damage playing the 4 does to the body of a small forward (Larry Bird switched from 3 to 4 himself) than you either are too soft are unwilling to consider thinking they might have a point on this one, showing little respect to the wisdom the coach and GM have. In some cultures, respect for the older ones and their opinions is a vital part of their culture. I guess that is why Larry Bird put it so harsh. Where is PG's respect for Larry Bird his opinion and experience? It was wrong to say it like that, but Larry Bird is an old man. He can't play good basketball himself anymore, his wisdom about basketball is all he can share right now, not his moves. PG whiping it off the table, is a lack of respect for the experience Larry Bird has. Nobody knows now how much it would have damaged PG and his body. It wasn't an option and the one taking that decision had less than half the game experience than Bird, not to mention life experience. That's why I can also understand that mistake of Bird.

I'm not going to look it up, but I would be very surprised if there has ever been a 26 years old succesfull GM of an NBA team.
Larry Bird is paid to make decisions, Paul George is paid to play and has the right to doubt the GM's decisions. Ignoring the decisions is not right though and might be a sign that Paul was already tired of Larry Bird ignoring him with trades he made. That's not the right way to deal with that though, if you plan to stick around.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#5 » by basketballwacko2 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:14 am

Sounds to me like PG is a whiner. I mean really he's getting paid $18-19 million a yr to play a game that I played as a kid for fun! Screw him, the team stood by him when he broke his stupid leg playing for Team USA. The team was willing to give him a super max contract if he'd made the All NBA team last season. And he wants to whine about other guys getting traded.

Now that said I don't think Bird should have went public with his criticism of Hibbert. They should have stayed quiet and traded him. And they had some rotten drafts 2008, 2012, 2013, 2014 all bad. The 2011 trade for George Hill bad in hindsight
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#6 » by tocooks101 » Thu Oct 5, 2017 7:04 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:Sounds to me like PG is a whiner. I mean really he's getting paid $18-19 million a yr to play a game that I played as a kid for fun! Screw him, the team stood by him when he broke his stupid leg playing for Team USA. The team was willing to give him a super max contract if he'd made the All NBA team last season. And he wants to whine about other guys getting traded.

Now that said I don't think Bird should have went public with his criticism of Hibbert. They should have stayed quiet and traded him. And they had some rotten drafts 2008, 2012, 2013, 2014 all bad. The 2011 trade for George Hill bad in hindsight


I don't think he is whining in this specific situation, he's more stating what the entire team likely felt after the trade as that single move severely messed up team chemistry and pretty much started the downfall that led to PG being moved.

I actually agree with PG on this one issue, Pacers did Danny wrong, which I find to be very rare for this franchise.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#7 » by Boneman2 » Fri Oct 6, 2017 5:35 am

The Pacers traded Granger, a SF, because they had a much better SF in PG himself. This is a cop-out.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#8 » by boomershadow » Fri Oct 6, 2017 4:10 pm

Boneman2 wrote:The Pacers traded Granger, a SF, because they had a much better SF in PG himself. This is a cop-out.


I thought some depth on the wing would have really helped us in that last Miami series. Rasual Butler did a decent-ish job I guess, but I wanted to see what Danny had left. If we had actually gotten something in return for Granger I might feel different, but Evan Turner didn't do jack squat.

Paul George can blame the Granger trade all he wants for the collapse that year, but let's not forget all the rumors that all the locker room turmoil was caused by PG sleeping with Hibbert's girl.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#9 » by pacers33granger » Fri Oct 6, 2017 5:48 pm

I was not a fan of the Granger trade the second it was announced, but Larry had good reason to do it. Granger was done, he basically never played again. The player we got happened to suck so it backfired, but he was putting up good numbers at the time and was universally seen as a big upgrade at a small price.

Really, you don't get to say that one front office (OKC) is doing whatever it takes to win and then take issue with Larry making that trade and putting emotions aside for the better of the team (turned out worse, but that wasn't really that foreseeable).
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#10 » by winter_mute_13 » Fri Oct 6, 2017 8:30 pm

I could see why the Granger trade rankled for PG. Danny wasn't just his friend and mentor, he was also the face of the franchise during the tough rebuilding years. The same role that PG is now being asked to commit to, with no guarantees of immediate improvement and the possibility of being dismissed ignominiously just when the team turned the corner. I see where he's coming from.

That said, if the trade had worked out, if Evan Turner had provided a boost instead of being a distraction, would PG have remembered the trade differently? I think he would.

The real issue is that a lot of Bird's moves didn't pan out, especially in the last few years when he had a lot more misses than hits. Once that happened, PG turned on him and it wouldn't have mattered if Bird were the nicest guy in the world who catered to PG's every wish. Look, PG understands as well as anyone the limitations of being in a small market (PG had talked about those pretty often - an early warning sign perhaps) so the Pacers really needed a strong front office to counteract that. For a time it looked like Bird had the magic touch and managed the trick of fielding a competitive small market team, but then it all fell apart and his efforts to reload quickly left much to be desired (signing Monta and Al Jeff... really).

None of this is defending PG's actions. I didn't like the antics he and his agent pulled and how it left the Pacers with no leverage. But his departure was sealed by the failures of the Pacers' FO. That's how I see it anyway.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#11 » by Boneman2 » Sat Oct 7, 2017 2:26 am

All very valid points posted above but let's not undersell the crippling effect PG's injury had on the organization. Any potential additions to the roster would not consider the Pacers until PG had proven he was back to full strength, which was this season.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#12 » by Major Cold » Sat Oct 7, 2017 11:05 pm

Bird's inability to adapt to the modern NBA hurt this team. I don't like pandering to the superDivas, but in order to succeed they need to at least consult on personnel decisions. Bird kept PG out of the loop, traded Granger, signed longterm deals to Jefferson and Monta, and ticked off West so he opted out. His ego got in the way. He has an eye for talent and he assembled two ECF teams. But his inability to push aside his ego and have some tact when dealing with players and the media is the reason we are here.

Sure you don't sell Granger for Evan Turner, but if you were going to trade Danny it should have been done two years earlier.Sure you sign some up and comers. But you don't overpay for Copeland, Monta, and Jefferson. Sure you dump Roy, but you don't kick him on the way out. Sure you trade PG when his loyalty is questionable, but you don't turn down the Celtics offer at AllStar break.

Look I love Larry Bird. My first memories watching NBA was with my dad as he cheered on the Celtics. My Aunt graduated with him at ISU. He knew his limitations as a player and that is why he was a good teammate on the court. He knew his limitations as a coach, utilizing Dick Harter and Rick Carlisle. But as a GM, when it came to player relations, Bird sucked at it plain and simple.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#13 » by chube » Mon Oct 9, 2017 5:07 pm

I know Paul was big about trading DG to a horrendous team like Philly and on paper I get it...but let's not forget that everybody and their mother knew Philly would buy him out and he could latch on with a contender...which is exactly what happened


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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#14 » by boomershadow » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:22 pm

Paul George was apparently somewhat miffed at first that we traded him to OKC when it wasn't on the list of preferred teams that he gave the Pacers, but I honestly don't feel like we did him wrong on that aspect. We could have traded HIM to the Sixers (or whoever the worst team in the league is now), and that's not even close to what happened. OKC is a solid spot to be in.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#15 » by owlwo » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:13 pm

I think Bird did not help matters but ultimately PG did not see a Championship team with the Pacers on the horizon. Oddly enough after his trade to OKC the Pacers I believe have the pieces to become a contender especially if a player like PG was added to the mix.
The Pacers have the cap room next year to bring him back. Obviously that is never going to happen.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#16 » by Pacers_Freak » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:59 pm

He's given 84 different reasons for wanting to leave. No championship, go home, Granger trade, etc, etc.... Who knows what the real reason is and to be honest it doesn't really matter. He has the right to want to leave and we honored his wish. His talent will certainly be missed. However, it will be refreshing after a loss to not hear our best player b**** about the crowd, refs, teammates, etc.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#17 » by HurricaneDij25 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:19 am

boomershadow wrote:https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/09/26/paul-george-opens-up-being-traded-embracing-oklahoma-city-and-his-future/703277001/

I just want to touch on, man, on my situation. I've seen a guy that played for that (Pacers) organization, gave that organization everything they had, or everything he had, and was essentially traded to the dogs. And I'm speaking on Danny Granger, who was one of the better players in Pacers history. And at the time, they traded him to the Philadelphia 76ers. And this was a guy that was battling injuries, and that's where you send him?


I don't entirely think he's wrong. There were a number of things that Larry Bird did in the last few years that seemed almost designed to make sure Paul George wouldn't want to stay here in free agency. I said it when it all happened. Eventually, we didn't even get to the end of the contract before he wanted out. And why shouldn't he? The Granger Trade. Not getting Lance re-signed. Public comments against Hibbert. Driving David West to sign elsewhere. Trying to force PG to play out of position. Firing his coach. Trading his best friend on the team. It all adds up.

It is my strong opinion that, even if Paul George didn't always give us 100% of what we wanted out of him or handle himself perfectly during adversity, our organization did a bad job of either keeping a team around him that could win or making sure PG was involved in deciding the franchise's direction and personally invested enough in the outcome to stay. And in today's NBA you have to do both of those in order to keep a superstar level player. I think Kevin Pritchard already seems like he's doing a better job of that with our current crop of players, and that's going to be especially important if either Myles Turner or Victor Oladipo make the kind of strides we hope they do.


The Granger trade had ZERO to do with PC13's desire to leave Indiana. He loves Kobe like a girlfriend and thought by living in Kobe's shadow that it would cure all his wounds as well as his flaws as a basketball player.

You know it, I know it, and the American public knows it.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#18 » by Miller4ever » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:38 pm

HurricaneDij25 wrote:The Granger trade had ZERO to do with PC13's desire to leave Indiana. He loves Kobe like a girlfriend and thought by living in Kobe's shadow that it would cure all his wounds as well as his flaws as a basketball player.

You know it, I know it, and the American public knows it.


I think there is a bit more of a gulf between what you think and what the American public knows that your ongoing PG rage boner won't let you bridge. I think your anger at Paul George the NBA player has made you lose all perspective on Paul George the human being, and it's time to move on to healthier, more positive modes of thinking.
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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#19 » by Miller4ever » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:40 pm

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Re: Granger Trade Played Role in George's Decision to Leave 

Post#20 » by boomershadow » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:39 pm



That's kind of where I'm trying to be mentally. I will miss Paul's talent on the court, and there were some things said and done by both sides that didn't sit perfectly with me. Both during the trade and long before it, but it's all said and done now.

The team we have now is really interesting to me, and in a lot of ways I am glad we didn't just get nothing at all for PG when he left. I am a Pacers fan first and foremost. I rooted hard for PG while he was here, and I wish they had had a little more success with Paul while he was here. Like a championship appearance at least. I wish the separation, if it had to happen, would have gone a little smoother. But we are where we are now, and I'm just gonna keep supporting the Pacers that are here now.
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