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Pre-Season Games

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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#21 » by IMF » Tue Oct 8, 2019 10:48 pm

pacers33granger wrote:Was able to catch the 2nd game but missed the first due to work. My biggest takeaway is that Brogdon seemed to do fine guarding PGs, which was a knock on him per Bucks fans. He's not a prime George Hill, but he was able to stay in front of Fox most of the time who is one of the quickest guys in the league.

Not that it comes as a surprise, but I think the coaching staff will figure out how to keep the defense solid even with the new additions who may not be that great on that end.


Thus far (and it's early for sure) I'm not seeing the knocks we have been hearing on Brogdon (can't defend PGs, not a true PG). He looked like a floor general to me so I'm not seeing this whole thing about playmaking being a weakness for him.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#22 » by pacers33granger » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:31 pm

IMF wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:Was able to catch the 2nd game but missed the first due to work. My biggest takeaway is that Brogdon seemed to do fine guarding PGs, which was a knock on him per Bucks fans. He's not a prime George Hill, but he was able to stay in front of Fox most of the time who is one of the quickest guys in the league.

Not that it comes as a surprise, but I think the coaching staff will figure out how to keep the defense solid even with the new additions who may not be that great on that end.


Thus far (and it's early for sure) I'm not seeing the knocks we have been hearing on Brogdon (can't defend PGs, not a true PG). He looked like a floor general to me so I'm not seeing this whole thing about playmaking being a weakness for him.


Same. Obviously it's tough when you have Giannis as he's clearly a better option to be controlling the ball. I think we clearly got a guy who will play his role and play it well though.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#23 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Oct 9, 2019 1:19 pm

IMF wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:Was able to catch the 2nd game but missed the first due to work. My biggest takeaway is that Brogdon seemed to do fine guarding PGs, which was a knock on him per Bucks fans. He's not a prime George Hill, but he was able to stay in front of Fox most of the time who is one of the quickest guys in the league.

Not that it comes as a surprise, but I think the coaching staff will figure out how to keep the defense solid even with the new additions who may not be that great on that end.


Thus far (and it's early for sure) I'm not seeing the knocks we have been hearing on Brogdon (can't defend PGs, not a true PG). He looked like a floor general to me so I'm not seeing this whole thing about playmaking being a weakness for him.


Agreed. Fox is going to be one of the toughest assignments defensively all year with his Quick’s, and Brogs did solid work both games on him. The quality of play at the PG spot looks massively improved from prior years with him there, no knock on DC or CoJo meant. They were fine. Brogs just has the size, length, shooting and defensive versatility to be upgrades.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#24 » by pacers33granger » Wed Oct 9, 2019 1:23 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
IMF wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:Was able to catch the 2nd game but missed the first due to work. My biggest takeaway is that Brogdon seemed to do fine guarding PGs, which was a knock on him per Bucks fans. He's not a prime George Hill, but he was able to stay in front of Fox most of the time who is one of the quickest guys in the league.

Not that it comes as a surprise, but I think the coaching staff will figure out how to keep the defense solid even with the new additions who may not be that great on that end.


Thus far (and it's early for sure) I'm not seeing the knocks we have been hearing on Brogdon (can't defend PGs, not a true PG). He looked like a floor general to me so I'm not seeing this whole thing about playmaking being a weakness for him.


Agreed. Fox is going to be one of the toughest assignments defensively all year with his Quick’s, and Brogs did solid work both games on him. The quality of play at the PG spot looks massively improved from prior years with him there, no knock on DC or CoJo meant. They were fine. Brogs just has the size, length, shooting and defensive versatility to be upgrades.


Yup. Maybe it's just Milwaukee fans being spoiled, but our PG play has been severely limited for years. I loved Hill but even he was quite limited in his own ways.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#25 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Oct 9, 2019 5:31 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
IMF wrote:
Thus far (and it's early for sure) I'm not seeing the knocks we have been hearing on Brogdon (can't defend PGs, not a true PG). He looked like a floor general to me so I'm not seeing this whole thing about playmaking being a weakness for him.


Agreed. Fox is going to be one of the toughest assignments defensively all year with his Quick’s, and Brogs did solid work both games on him. The quality of play at the PG spot looks massively improved from prior years with him there, no knock on DC or CoJo meant. They were fine. Brogs just has the size, length, shooting and defensive versatility to be upgrades.


Yup. Maybe it's just Milwaukee fans being spoiled, but our PG play has been severely limited for years. I loved Hill but even he was quite limited in his own ways.


Either spoiled, or just needing different things out of their PG play. With Giannis, obviously everything will go through him. He doesn't need anyone to take the ball out of his hands; he'll get to the rim on his own. For us, while Oladipo will have the ball a ton, he still needs a second ball handler to help him out and give him a few possession's off here and there, while providing a little bit of everything else, including the ability to consistently hit any shot on a drive kickout. We just need two different fits/skill sets. Hill really might be a better fit there right now, though a much lesser player, than Brogdon.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#26 » by Tom White » Wed Oct 9, 2019 6:35 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Yup. Maybe it's just Milwaukee fans being spoiled..............


Either spoiled, or just needing different things out of their PG play..............


Or it could be just sour grapes on the part of some fans who feel "jilted" by one of their players? Seems to me to be as likely as anything.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#27 » by Tom White » Wed Oct 9, 2019 6:42 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:For us, while Oladipo will have the ball a ton, he still needs a second ball handler to help him out and give him a few possession's off here and there, while providing a little bit of everything else, including the ability to consistently hit any shot on a drive kickout.


Frankly? I'm hoping he will not be as ball-dominate as he was before. Of course some of that was necessary at the time, but I'm looking forward to a greater degree of ball-sharing and greater participation in the offense by more players. We have weapons now that were not here before. They need to be used in order to make the defense play more honestly, which in turn should make our offense more potent.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#28 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Oct 9, 2019 7:00 pm

Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:For us, while Oladipo will have the ball a ton, he still needs a second ball handler to help him out and give him a few possession's off here and there, while providing a little bit of everything else, including the ability to consistently hit any shot on a drive kickout.


Frankly? I'm hoping he will not be as ball-dominate as he was before. Of course some of that was necessary at the time, but I'm looking forward to a greater degree of ball-sharing and greater participation in the offense by more players. We have weapons now that were not here before. They need to be used in order to make the defense play more honestly, which in turn should make our offense more potent.


Like I said, he needs a second ball handler to really help him out, and he's talked as if he's not only welcoming that, but loving that Brogdon is here to take that on. Agreed on the theoretical need, though.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#29 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Oct 9, 2019 7:01 pm

Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
Either spoiled, or just needing different things out of their PG play..............


Or it could be just sour grapes on the part of some fans who feel "jilted" by one of their players? Seems to me to be as likely as anything.


Probably not. They weren't quite jilted...they got a 1st and 2 2nds out of us for him. And they were able to know early enough to re-tool and keep other guys to help free in the holes.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#30 » by pacers33granger » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:31 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:


Or it could be just sour grapes on the part of some fans who feel "jilted" by one of their players? Seems to me to be as likely as anything.


Probably not. They weren't quite jilted...they got a 1st and 2 2nds out of us for him. And they were able to know early enough to re-tool and keep other guys to help free in the holes.


Yeah it seems most Bucks fans knew he was likely gone given what they had to pay Middleton and Lopez. I have seen some believe that Wes Matthews and Korver will fill in the void though, which is really off.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#31 » by boomershadow » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:17 pm

Not only did he have to share a ball with Giannis, the Bucks also had a point guard in the starting lineup right.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#32 » by pacers33granger » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:19 pm

boomershadow wrote:Not only did he have to share a ball with Giannis, the Bucks also had a point guard in the starting lineup right.


Yeah he was playing alongside Bledsoe and then they brought in Hill as the backup pg. Middleton also did a small bit of ballhandling too at times.

In the end the move was really beneficial for everyone, though I'm still skeptical we needed to give up picks.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#33 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:48 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
boomershadow wrote:Not only did he have to share a ball with Giannis, the Bucks also had a point guard in the starting lineup right.


Yeah he was playing alongside Bledsoe and then they brought in Hill as the backup pg. Middleton also did a small bit of ballhandling too at times.

In the end the move was really beneficial for everyone, though I'm still skeptical we needed to give up picks.


I think we could’ve kept the picks if we were willing to really push Milwaukee on salary. But I think it would’ve cost us an extra $12-20m in overall salary to offer Brogdon enough so as Milwaukee wouldn’t match, and to keep him out of an open bidding situation.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#34 » by Wizop » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:42 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:I think we could’ve kept the picks if we were willing to really push Milwaukee on salary. But I think it would’ve cost us an extra $12-20m in overall salary to offer Brogdon enough so as Milwaukee wouldn’t match, and to keep him out of an open bidding situation.


and Herb thought losing the picks was a fair price to pay to maintain friendly relationships with the Bucks' owners.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#35 » by pacers33granger » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:52 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
boomershadow wrote:Not only did he have to share a ball with Giannis, the Bucks also had a point guard in the starting lineup right.


Yeah he was playing alongside Bledsoe and then they brought in Hill as the backup pg. Middleton also did a small bit of ballhandling too at times.

In the end the move was really beneficial for everyone, though I'm still skeptical we needed to give up picks.


I think we could’ve kept the picks if we were willing to really push Milwaukee on salary. But I think it would’ve cost us an extra $12-20m in overall salary to offer Brogdon enough so as Milwaukee wouldn’t match, and to keep him out of an open bidding situation.


Eh, I don't know (and of course none of us do). It seemed that contract was out of their price range given what they'd handed out already (that Bledsoe extension was dumb at the time and even worse now imo), the looming giant new deal for Giannis, and the fact that Brogdon wanted to move on. Their owner specifically called resigning him a "luxury" and not a priority. Maybe that's lip service, but it did not seem like it.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#36 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:16 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
Yeah he was playing alongside Bledsoe and then they brought in Hill as the backup pg. Middleton also did a small bit of ballhandling too at times.

In the end the move was really beneficial for everyone, though I'm still skeptical we needed to give up picks.


I think we could’ve kept the picks if we were willing to really push Milwaukee on salary. But I think it would’ve cost us an extra $12-20m in overall salary to offer Brogdon enough so as Milwaukee wouldn’t match, and to keep him out of an open bidding situation.


Eh, I don't know (and of course none of us do). It seemed that contract was out of their price range given what they'd handed out already (that Bledsoe extension was dumb at the time and even worse now imo), the looming giant new deal for Giannis, and the fact that Brogdon wanted to move on. Their owner specifically called resigning him a "luxury" and not a priority. Maybe that's lip service, but it did not seem like it.


They essentially spent the money anyway, just on George Hill and Robin Lopez instead of on Brogdon. I think that’s what the “luxury” vs “priority” probably factors in.

But after the rumors of the S&T came out, a couple teams called Brogs and his agent to see if they could enter negotiations and pay him more than we were willing to pay. I think that’s where our picks came in handy.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#37 » by pacers33granger » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:08 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
They essentially spent the money anyway, just on George Hill and Robin Lopez instead of on Brogdon. I think that’s what the “luxury” vs “priority” probably factors in.

But after the rumors of the S&T came out, a couple teams called Brogs and his agent to see if they could enter negotiations and pay him more than we were willing to pay. I think that’s where our picks came in handy.


They spent $15 mil on Hill/Lopez versus $20 mil on Brogdon and only 2 years versus 4. For a team with a high payroll that's a big difference, especially given it's two roster spots instead of one and they had no backup center at all. Year 3 and 4 of the Brogdon deal coincides with Giannis' new deal. So it's really not at all the same money.

Again, could be some saving face but the comments are pretty telling:

Read on Twitter


The question is, was re-signing Malcolm an imperative? I think re-signing Malcolm was a luxury and our view was Malcolm is a phenomenal player. He's great, but for that amount for money, we thought we could have those dollars better spent elsewhere.


And how would the picks change anything about Brogdon accepting more money?
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#38 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:18 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
They essentially spent the money anyway, just on George Hill and Robin Lopez instead of on Brogdon. I think that’s what the “luxury” vs “priority” probably factors in.

But after the rumors of the S&T came out, a couple teams called Brogs and his agent to see if they could enter negotiations and pay him more than we were willing to pay. I think that’s where our picks came in handy.


They spent $15 mil on Hill/Lopez versus $20 mil on Brogdon and only 2 years versus 4. For a team with a high payroll that's a big difference, especially given it's two roster spots instead of one and they had no backup center at all. Year 3 and 4 of the Brogdon deal coincides with Giannis' new deal. So it's really not at all the same money.

Again, could be some saving face but the comments are pretty telling:

Read on Twitter


The question is, was re-signing Malcolm an imperative? I think re-signing Malcolm was a luxury and our view was Malcolm is a phenomenal player. He's great, but for that amount for money, we thought we could have those dollars better spent elsewhere.


Also, they got to keep Ilyasova too, instead of having to pay a pick to dump him elsewhere. I mean, their whole fiscal offseason was very different and they still spent the same money. 2 years, 4 years, whatever. Good players cost money.


pacers33granger wrote:And how would the picks change anything about Brogdon accepting more money?


Arranging a S&T very quickly, and super early in the process, allowed less teams to enter the negotiations (it allowed no other teams to enter the negotiations) and got Brogdon to agree to a deal with a team that he allegedly had a history with (he's talked often about the Pacers having been open with their appreciation during the draft process). We agreed to a deal when other teams tried to enter the process, and he and his agent stood firm on their agreed upon offer.

Thus, using the picks quickly to enter the process likely saved us from having to try and bid in a wide open bidding situation.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#39 » by pacers33granger » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:37 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Also, they got to keep Ilyasova too, instead of having to pay a pick to dump him elsewhere. I mean, their whole fiscal offseason was very different and they still spent the same money. 2 years, 4 years, whatever. Good players cost money.

Arranging a S&T very quickly, and super early in the process, allowed less teams to enter the negotiations (it allowed no other teams to enter the negotiations) and got Brogdon to agree to a deal with a team that he allegedly had a history with (he's talked often about the Pacers having been open with their appreciation during the draft process). We agreed to a deal when other teams tried to enter the process, and he and his agent stood firm on their agreed upon offer.

Thus, using the picks quickly to enter the process likely saved us from having to try and bid in a wide open bidding situation.


2 years versus 4 years is a giant difference. They already committed $66.5 mil to Middleton, Bledsoe, and Lopez in 21/22 and knew they would be offering Giannis the max. If they added in Brogdon they would likely have exceeded the cap for 5 players. It's pretty apparent to me that they chose Bledsoe early on and knew Brogdon was gone unless he would sign for well under market. The comments by ownership indicate that they didn't feel Brogdon necessary to winning a title and wasn't worth the luxury payments.

As for the sign and trade, that's the point, I don't think a sign and trade was necessary at all outside of Simon's stupid rule about not chasing RFAs. But that's a self imposed hindrance.
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Re: Pre-Season Games 

Post#40 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:03 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Also, they got to keep Ilyasova too, instead of having to pay a pick to dump him elsewhere. I mean, their whole fiscal offseason was very different and they still spent the same money. 2 years, 4 years, whatever. Good players cost money.

Arranging a S&T very quickly, and super early in the process, allowed less teams to enter the negotiations (it allowed no other teams to enter the negotiations) and got Brogdon to agree to a deal with a team that he allegedly had a history with (he's talked often about the Pacers having been open with their appreciation during the draft process). We agreed to a deal when other teams tried to enter the process, and he and his agent stood firm on their agreed upon offer.

Thus, using the picks quickly to enter the process likely saved us from having to try and bid in a wide open bidding situation.


2 years versus 4 years is a giant difference. They already committed $66.5 mil to Middleton, Bledsoe, and Lopez in 21/22 and knew they would be offering Giannis the max. If they added in Brogdon they would likely have exceeded the cap for 5 players. It's pretty apparent to me that they chose Bledsoe early on and knew Brogdon was gone unless he would sign for well under market. The comments by ownership indicate that they didn't feel Brogdon necessary to winning a title and wasn't worth the luxury payments.

As for the sign and trade, that's the point, I don't think a sign and trade was necessary at all outside of Simon's stupid rule about not chasing RFAs. But that's a self imposed hindrance.


So when Hill and Lopez expire, they're just not going to sign players to fill that roster/cap space?

If your belief is that Milwaukee was going to let Brogdon walk for anything, and that Simon just up and called and gave up picks, I'm not sure how you can keep following the franchise with that kind of malfeasance. We've negotiated with a lot of RFA's, but usually waited until we get them to be renounced. Simon also isn't the only owner who tends to stay away from restricted free agents. The number that avoid it is probably larger than the few who dive in fully.

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