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Pacers Odds and Ends

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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#241 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:16 pm

pacers33granger wrote:I don't have Hayward nearly as good as others it seems, even with injuries aside. He's far closer to a $20m player and likely less with his injuries. Don't understand why any Pacer fan would want him unless we're being handsomely paid.

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Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:He still put up 20/6/4 this year on only 15 field goal attempts and 47/42/84 shooting splits while playing average to good defense on the wings.


I'm sorry, but if I'm going to pay a player $30 million a year, those stats don't look like value return to me. Then add that he can't seem to stay healthy (sound familiar with our roster?) and the value lessens even more. I really think if he did not have Hoosier state ties, we would be more likely to look at him as just another nice player, but nothing special.

On the other hand, maybe I'm just being a bit grumpy because I finally realized "I could have had a V-8" and am still working past that. :banghead: :lol:


I’m not saying we should trade for him. I’m of the belief that we likely assumed he’d be a 20/5/5 type player and we’re willing to pay him 4/105. He played that well and ended up with 4/130 instead. I assume that’s just entirely too much for us to consider paying. But, I also wouldn’t call him a role player is all. He made a big impact in Charlotte and Boston, that’s for sure.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#242 » by boomershadow » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:49 pm

I only brought up Hayward because it seems like when the Pacers Front Office sets their sights on a guy, they really set their sights on him.

That said, with his injury history and the Pacers injury history combined, it doesn't seem like a good fit. It might be a good gamble to take if we hadn't all sat around saying we would be good if healthy the past handful of years. Both with PG and Vic.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#243 » by pacers33granger » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:14 pm

Hayward isn't a role player, but he's also not a star anymore. Just seems odd we all are saying unequivocally no to guys like McCollum (rightfully so), but being more open to a worse, older player on a comparable contract. Just feels like the guy gets a pass from a lot of people when he's closer to the Love, Wall, Gordon, etc. contract tier than reasonably paid.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#244 » by Wizop » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:53 pm

Mark Monteith in a radio interview suggested to start McConnell for his leadership and bring LeVert off the bench but give both starters minutes. could work if coach can sell him on it not being a demotion. I'm old enough to remember Red Auerbach winning rings bringing his best player off the bench. you could also trade Turner and start Brogdon or LeVert at the 3 and Warren at the 4.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#245 » by Tom White » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:08 pm

Wizop wrote:I'm old enough to remember Red Auerbach winning rings bringing his best player off the bench. you could also trade Turner and start Brogdon or LeVert at the 3 and Warren at the 4.


There you go with the age thing again. :lol:

I assume you are talking about John Havlicek?

If you intend to have Brogdon, Levert, and Warren starting along with Sabonis then I think you are looking at a team that might set a record for number of points given up per game.

I also agree with Mark about McConnell. I think he has a much more diverse skillset than Brogdon. He is a better ball handler, passer, and defender. If SOME of the risks he takes on defense could be reigned in it would help him. Wouldn't want to do too much reigning in with him though. We don't want to go changing who he is. I think the best thing a coach could do for Brogdon is to convince him he is not really a point guard. He just doesn't really have the proper skillset.

How do you think Sumner would do as the primary back-up point guard?
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#246 » by Wizop » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:16 pm

Tom White wrote:
Wizop wrote:I'm old enough to remember Red Auerbach winning rings bringing his best player off the bench. you could also trade Turner and start Brogdon or LeVert at the 3 and Warren at the 4.


There you go with the age thing again.

I assume you are talking about John Havlicek?

If you intend to have Brogdon, Levert, and Warren starting along with Sabonis then I think you are looking at a team that might set a record for number of points given up per game.
It wasn't just Havlicek. Tommy Heinsohn and Frank Ramsey did it earlier. Long after Red retired he admitted his famous sixth men were his best players. He felt his team got better at the first substitution and the other team got worse and never caught up. There was once an article on this in the realgm archives.

I'm not buying into our guys can't defend until we have a quality defensive coach. Burke was great but Old Nate tied his hands and forbade zones.

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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#247 » by Tom White » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:32 pm

Wizop wrote:I'm not buying into our guys can't defend until we have a quality defensive coach. Burke was great but Old Nate tied his hands and forbade zones.

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I hear you, and there are some things better coaching can help with. Positioning and awareness being two of them. But that is not going to help guys like Sabonis or Brogdon who lack the quickness and agility they need in order to defend many of the better players.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#248 » by Wizop » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:49 pm

Tom White wrote:
Wizop wrote:I'm not buying into our guys can't defend until we have a quality defensive coach. Burke was great but Old Nate tied his hands and forbade zones.

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I hear you, and there are some things better coaching can help with. Positioning and awareness being two of them. But that is not going to help guys like Sabonis or Brogdon who lack the quickness and agility they need in order to defend many of the better players.
Which is why I'm comfortable keeping Turner and testing the market for Sabonis.

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Re: Pacers Odds and Endst 

Post#249 » by boomershadow » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:44 am

The team wants to get better defensively and also is willing to shop Turner, by far the best defender on the team.

I'm not saying it is impossible to do both, but
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Re: Pacers Odds and Endst 

Post#250 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:04 pm

boomershadow wrote:The team wants to get better defensively and also is willing to shop Turner, by far the best defender on the team.

I'm not saying it is impossible to do both, but


I’d take Pritchard saying that as his nice way of saying he thinks that Bjorkgren really messed up the defense and made it much worse than it would’ve been without him. And I don’t necessarily disagree. I think by now, we’ve all read much of Caitlin Cooper’s articles that point out just how badly Nate messed up over the year. If we have a new coach that won’t force Sabonis wildly out of position by asking him to pressure every square inch of the half court, won’t constantly confuse the team by switching from man to zone to box to triangle on one possession, and just holds his team accountable, we’ll likely be much better. Even without fancy schemes or anything.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#251 » by boomershadow » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:37 pm

Oh I actually do think the defense can improve by taking Sabonis off of the perimeter, getting a solid 4 who can also guard 3s, and just in general fixing the wonky schemes we saw this year. The Pacers can end up with a better overall defense even without the best single defensive player on the team. I really think that's probably the main plan for this offseason.

It just sounds really weird to hear we are looking to improve the defense by getting rid of our best defender.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#252 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:30 pm

boomershadow wrote:Oh I actually do think the defense can improve by taking Sabonis off of the perimeter, getting a solid 4 who can also guard 3s, and just in general fixing the wonky schemes we saw this year. The Pacers can end up with a better overall defense even without the best single defensive player on the team. I really think that's probably the main plan for this offseason.

It just sounds really weird to hear we are looking to improve the defense by getting rid of our best defender.


I hear ya. I just took it as really polite “shade” by Pritchard at Nate.


I’ll be curious to hear any specifics of Nate’s Tuesday meeting with Pritchard. Reports were that they spent the day together in their wrap up meeting, and then Pritchard made the decision to fire him Wednesday. Can’t imagine that meeting on Tuesday went well.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#253 » by Wizop » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:58 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Can’t imagine that meeting on Tuesday went well.


No need to imagine. Pritchard told us that Nate took it very hard.

I think Nate beat himself up today as much as any coach I've ever seen, He took it pretty hard. I have too much respect to sort of open up those wounds. I think he knows what he needs to improve on and I think he will.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#254 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:43 pm

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Can’t imagine that meeting on Tuesday went well.


No need to imagine. Pritchard told us that Nate took it very hard.

I think Nate beat himself up today as much as any coach I've ever seen, He took it pretty hard. I have too much respect to sort of open up those wounds. I think he knows what he needs to improve on and I think he will.


He said that about the firing Wednesday morning. The end of season/attempt to save the job meeting was Tuesday.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#255 » by boomershadow » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:26 pm

I can't remember where now among all the chatter from various places over the last few days, but one thing I heard that really struck me is "McMillan needed a guy like Bjorkgren on his staff, and Bjorkgren needed a guy like McMillan on his staff."
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#256 » by Wizop » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:49 pm

boomershadow wrote:I can't remember where now among all the chatter from various places over the last few days, but one thing I heard that really struck me is "McMillan needed a guy like Bjorkgren on his staff, and Bjorkgren needed a guy like McMillan on his staff."


and Bjorkgren needed Nurse and perhaps Nurse needed Bjorkgren.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#257 » by Wizop » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:51 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Can’t imagine that meeting on Tuesday went well.


No need to imagine. Pritchard told us that Nate took it very hard.

I think Nate beat himself up today as much as any coach I've ever seen, He took it pretty hard. I have too much respect to sort of open up those wounds. I think he knows what he needs to improve on and I think he will.


He said that about the firing Wednesday morning. The end of season/attempt to save the job meeting was Tuesday.


True, it does say "today." I doubt though any of the meeting were happy ones including when KP moved to the end of the bench and when he spoke in the locker room after games.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#258 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:03 pm

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:
No need to imagine. Pritchard told us that Nate took it very hard.



He said that about the firing Wednesday morning. The end of season/attempt to save the job meeting was Tuesday.


True, it does say "today." I doubt though any of the meeting were happy ones including when KP moved to the end of the bench and when he spoke in the locker room after games.


Oh, agreed. My gossipy side is probably just interested in what his excuses and/or plans were. Clearly, they weren’t strong enough to convince Pritchard.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#259 » by Tom White » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:18 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Oh, agreed. My gossipy side is probably just interested in what his excuses and/or plans were. Clearly, they weren’t strong enough to convince Pritchard.


I think we all enjoy the idea of being a "fly on the wall".............until we see Pritchard with a swatter in one hand and a can of Raid in the other.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#260 » by pacers33granger » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:18 pm

Pure speculation and a guess, but Nate may have plead his case saying that what he was trying to implement would have worked if we were healthy and had practice time. Which may be true, but would reinforce the lack of adjustments and rigidity issues.

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