2020 Draft & Free Agency

[Scoot McGroot]

If we can get rid of Leaf I think we have enough to keep Justin. He's probably one of the many MLE level free agents who will be screwed out of some real money this summer and may take $4-5 mil again knowing he has a role here.

But I'm highly skeptical anyone will do us the favor of taking on Leaf without incentive we shouldn't give. So I think we're stuck with him and will end up with Jakarr back on a minimum and 2 of Alize, Bowen, and whoever we get in the draft. I'm kind of curious what Nate could do with Bowen given the Raptor staff track records with G-League guys.

It really might be cash and a couple seconds, which would suck. Or it might be a stretch waive to save around $2m this year and stretch the cap hit over 3 years.

If I were a fan of another team I'd balk at taking him on for 2nds and cash. If someone does it for that little I'd imagine it would be at the end of free agency too so I'm not sure it helps us all that much other than saving cash, though Justin and/or a few good vets could be left out and looking for a spot.

Any other year I'd say we could use a 2nd or two to dump him. I just don't see it with how strapped most teams will be and how little space is out there with numerous teams looking to dump money. If he were usable it'd be one thing, but he's probably an insta-cut for whoever would take him on.

I would understand if we stretched him but I absolutely hate the stretch provision. It's a good tool to have, but I'm always in favor of biting the bullet and paying it out. It irks me that we still have Monta's money on the books giving us issues years after he's been gone.

I agree, but I think there’s outs. Could be that a team has an expiring TPE with no meaningful cap space and little tax threat, and cash and a second or three would be useful trade chips.

Or, maybe he’s used as a means to getting someone useful? If Philly would do Scott/34 for Doug/54, would they instead do something like Scott/Zhaire for Doug/Leaf?that would still effectively cut TJ’s salary off the books via salary matching, and Scott would play some bench 4 and we sign Holiday back to play McDermotts role as the bench 3 with range?

I don’t know, I’m just spitballing here. I think there’s avenues, though. Not easy, but Pritchard used to be a wheeler dealer, so I’d like to see it done. Though, I’m prepared for either a stretch waive, or just living through it and instead re signing Sampson, Alize, and a second rounder to fill out the roster.

[pacers33granger]

I'm okay seeing what new coaches can do with Leaf. I think a lot of his problem is confidence. That and square peg in round hole. Bjorkgren talks the right talk for me.

Sent from my phone.

I think his issue is that he was far too weak early on to be a big in the NBA and once he bulked up a bit it caused him to lose the skills he had. His shot went away completely, his athleticism seems to have declined, and his movements are too slow.

He reminds me a lot of Jan Vesely, in all of the bad ways.

[pacers33granger]

I agree, but I think there’s outs. Could be that a team has an expiring TPE with no meaningful cap space and little tax threat, and cash and a second or three would be useful trade chips.

Or, maybe he’s used as a means to getting someone useful? If Philly would do Scott/34 for Doug/54, would they instead do something like Scott/Zhaire for Doug/Leaf?that would still effectively cut TJ’s salary off the books via salary matching, and Scott would play some bench 4 and we sign Holiday back to play McDermotts role as the bench 3 with range?

I don’t know, I’m just spitballing here. I think there’s avenues, though. Not easy, but Pritchard used to be a wheeler dealer, so I’d like to see it done. Though, I’m prepared for either a stretch waive, or just living through it and instead re signing Sampson, Alize, and a second rounder to fill out the roster.

Yeah there very well may be some way to save some money without throwing too many assets in.

I'm mostly just skeptical as it seems teams with cap space will either prioritize getting free agents they otherwise might not have had a chance on as the markets thin or getting more premium assets attached to still useful players in trade. I'll be shocked if there's many teams looking to kick the can down the road and buy future assets (2nds at least) like normal, especially if they feel they can just keep the money now and buy a similar pick when it comes up.

I know Scott has been an example of a guy Philly may look to dump and a team could get one of their 2nds this year (better than anything we can offer now) for an actually useful player who makes less than Leaf. Not that there's only one shot, but there should be a lot of teams looking to cut small contracts.

It certainly makes it more doable if we start expanding trades. I'd hate to lose Doug still as he worked so well with Domas last year and could possibly be even better with a more modern offense. Keeping him beyond next year seems really tough though.

[Wizop]

Oops. My phone fooled me into thinking my post was last in the thread. I edited it when I should have made a new one.

Sent from my phone.

[Scoot McGroot]

Yeah, could also be something where Leaf is dealt for a couple guys that combine about the same to a team looking to clear roster spots. Or he’s just salary filler where we deal a future first for someone usable.

But I also could see the team stick with him and maybe a coach that doesn’t just ignore their players may do something better for him. McMillan darn near screwed up Turner too with all the poor leadership and expectation setting. Sending him he last season to bulk up and play the 5 and then wait until the first day of camp to ask him to slim down and add flexibility to play the 4 was negligent.

[Wizop]

I think his issue is that he was far too weak early on to be a big in the NBA and once he bulked up a bit it caused him to lose the skills he had. His shot went away completely, his athleticism seems to have declined, and his movements are too slow.

Rik Smits also looked like a bust until Larry Brown showed up and had him lose the extra weight that prior coaches had wanted him to carry.

[Lazlo4D]

With the NBA Draft in coming up on November 18th, here is a little Pacers Draft history. Some of this is painful, Mr. Bird...

2020 #54 ???

2019 Grade=B+
1-#18-Goga Bitadze
Brandon Clarke, Matisse Thybulle were also available.
Got TJ Warren free. Traded #32 & #50 for 3 future Miami SRP's & 2021 Utah SRP

2018 Grade=A
1-#23-Aaron Holiday,UCLA 2-#50-Alize Johnson,MizSt
Hard to argue their were better players available.

2017 Grade=D (Without Sumner it would be an F)
1-#18-T. J. Leaf,UCLA 2-#47-Ike Anigbogu,UCLA
Left John Collins, Harry Giles, Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Kyle Kuzma on the board
Also bought second SRP from NOP, Edmond Sumner, Xavier.

** May, 2017 Larry Bird resigns, Kevin Pritchard is GM

2016 Grade=D for the shortsighted trade
1-#20 Caris LeVert,Mi Traded to NJ for Thad Young 2-#50 Georges Niang,IowaSt
Pascal Siakam and Malcolm Brogdon available.

2015 Grade=A
1-#11 Myles Turner,TX 2-#43 Joseph Young,OR
Also traded future Laker SRP(Hibbert trade) for Rakeem Christmas

2014 Grade=F-
Suns take 1-#27 Bogdan Bogdanovic with Pacers pick*
Joe Harris, Spencer Dinwiddle, Nikola Jokic on the board
*Pacers had traded this FRP for Luis Scola the year before
Pacers sell there SRP #57 to the NY Knicks for cash

2013 Grade=F
1-#23 Solomon Hill
Tim Hardaway Jr., André Roberson, Rudy Gobert available
Pacers sell there SRP #53 to the Boston for cash

2012 Grade=F
1-#26 Miles Plumlee
Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Will Barton available
Had traded SRP earlier in year for Leandro Barbosa

2011 Grade=F-
1-#15 Kawhi Leonard traded along with their SRP #42 (Davis Bertans)
to San Antonio for George Hill
OUCH !!!

[Grang33r]

With the NBA Draft in coming up on November 18th, here is a little Pacers Draft history. Some of this is painful, Mr. Bird...

2019 Grade=B+
1-#18-Goga Bitadze
Brandon Clarke, Matisse Thybulle were also available.
Got TJ Warren free. Traded #32 & #50 for 3 future Miami SRP's & 2021 Utah SRP

Should be noted, Clarke is 24, Thybulle is 23 and Goga is still only 21.

2017 Grade=D (Without Sumner it would be an F)
1-#18-T. J. Leaf,UCLA 2-#47-Ike Anigbogu,UCLA
Left John Collins, Harry Giles, Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Kyle Kuzma on the board
Also bought second SRP from NOP, Edmond Sumner, Xavier.

This one hurts. Leaf wasn't a popular pick on draft night by the fans either, the optimists would justify it by saying maybe they drafted Gordon Hayward 2.0. John Collins wouldve been an enormous pick in that selection.

2014 Grade=F-
Suns take 1-#27 Bogdan Bogdanovic with Pacers pick*
Joe Harris, Spencer Dinwiddle, Nikola Jokic on the board
*Pacers had traded this FRP for Luis Scola the year before
Pacers sell there SRP #57 to the NY Knicks for cash

I don't see how this is a F. Pacers had a sick team that year, they needed to fix their bench to be a true contender and got a reliable Scola. And it's not like they were a bad team that year, think we were the best team at the all star break and the #1 seed in the East, which is what we needed to have a chance vs. the Heat in the playoffs. We reached the ECF but just werent able to get past LeBron James.

[Grang33r]

I'm okay seeing what new coaches can do with Leaf. I think a lot of his problem is confidence. That and square peg in round hole. Bjorkgren talks the right talk for me.

Sent from my phone.

I think his issue is that he was far too weak early on to be a big in the NBA and once he bulked up a bit it caused him to lose the skills he had. His shot went away completely, his athleticism seems to have declined, and his movements are too slow.

He reminds me a lot of Jan Vesely, in all of the bad ways.

When the Pacers drafted Goga, even though he was just 19 at the time of the pick, they said not only does he have a lot of room to improve but also he's ready to compete right now because he's played vs. men in Europe. But he was nowhere near ready to play in the NBA his rookie season.

[Lazlo4D]

I don't see how this is a F. Pacers had a sick team that year, they needed to fix their bench to be a true contender and got a reliable Scola. And it's not like they were a bad team that year, think we were the best team at the all star break and the #1 seed in the East, which is what we needed to have a chance vs. the Heat in the playoffs. We reached the ECF but just werent able to get past LeBron James.

I guess you could upgrade it to a C-, maybe. But I'll counter with this. A FRP pick for Scola felt overpay at the time and the Pacers only got 2 years of a backup that avg'd about 8 PPG 5-6 RPG then he walked away for no comp.

Add to the reality that for 7 YEARS 2011-17 (except for 2015 Turner & Young) they got NOTHING from the draft. No young players whatsoever. Nada... Plus they SOLD 2 of their SRP's for cash. I absolutely hate that, it's a GM being lazy and cheap. Yes they were late SRP's but in 2013, they sold their SRP and these players went undrafted: Robert Covington, Seth Curry, Troy Daniels, Dewayne Dedmon, Matthew Dellavedova, Daniel Theis.

Go back and look at that 2016-17 Pacers roster had become and you see why Paul George had no confidence for the future. Kevin Pritchard has done an amazing job rebuilding the young talent base in a short time.

[Scoot McGroot]

The monumental hits on Paul George, Danny Granger, and Myles Turner, and to a lesser extent Roy Hibbert, really overshadow the poor state of overall drafting, or maybe rather, value placed on the draft, in Indiana over the last many years. I'll give you that. But, we also made moves based on where we were at. We sold late 2nds because we didn't have roster spots for them. We traded 1sts for win now vets because we were close to competing. It didn't work out, but it was right at the time.

[pacers33granger]

I'm okay seeing what new coaches can do with Leaf. I think a lot of his problem is confidence. That and square peg in round hole. Bjorkgren talks the right talk for me.

Sent from my phone.

I think his issue is that he was far too weak early on to be a big in the NBA and once he bulked up a bit it caused him to lose the skills he had. His shot went away completely, his athleticism seems to have declined, and his movements are too slow.

He reminds me a lot of Jan Vesely, in all of the bad ways.

When the Pacers drafted Goga, even though he was just 19 at the time of the pick, they said not only does he have a lot of room to improve but also he's ready to compete right now because he's played vs. men in Europe. But he was nowhere near ready to play in the NBA his rookie season.

Agreed but my post was about Leaf. I think Gogas injury and conditioning issues along with Nate's insistence on not playing young guys made for an underwhelming year.

[Wizop]

Scola was not Bird's only goof. He acquired several older players who no longer could play as well as he remembered them playing.

Sent from my phone.

[Pacers_Freak]

I'm okay seeing what new coaches can do with Leaf. I think a lot of his problem is confidence. That and square peg in round hole. Bjorkgren talks the right talk for me.

Edit: if we are creative in playing Myles and Domas together, could the same scheme work with Goga and TJ?

If Bjokgren makes TJ Leaf a player.... Simon should offer him a lifetime contract. I don't care if he goes 0-82. If he makes him a player.... he's not a basketball coach.... he's a magician.

[Wizop]

[If he makes [Leaf] a player.... he's not a basketball coach.... he's a magician.

"if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem" applies to the old coaching staff.

[Pacers_Freak]

[If he makes [Leaf] a player.... he's not a basketball coach.... he's a magician.

"if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem" applies to the old coaching staff.

I mean I get what you are saying. But also that's like saying if they couldn't turn me into an NBA player they were part of the solution so they are the problem?

[Wizop]

But also that's like saying if they couldn't turn me into an NBA player they were part of the solution so they are the problem?

Knight always said basketball was 80% mental. I think the old staff killed Leaf's confidence.

and then there is the scheme issue. here's a football example. Jerry Hughes didn't look like an NFL player for the Colts but sure does in Buffalo. we played a 3-4. they have him in a 4-3 which is what we now play too.

but I'm not saying he will be a different player. I just am willing to give him another chance.

[Scoot McGroot]

But also that's like saying if they couldn't turn me into an NBA player they were part of the solution so they are the problem?

Knight always said basketball was 80% mental. I think the old staff killed Leaf's confidence.

and then there is the scheme issue. here's a football example. Jerry Hughes didn't look like an NFL player for the Colts but sure does in Buffalo. we played a 3-4. they have him in a 4-3 which is what we now play too.

but I'm not saying he will be a different player. I just am willing to give him another chance.

Also, we might not even have a choice. We might be stuck with Leaf either way.

[Pacers_Freak]

But also that's like saying if they couldn't turn me into an NBA player they were part of the solution so they are the problem?

Knight always said basketball was 80% mental. I think the old staff killed Leaf's confidence.

and then there is the scheme issue. here's a football example. Jerry Hughes didn't look like an NFL player for the Colts but sure does in Buffalo. we played a 3-4. they have him in a 4-3 which is what we now play too.

but I'm not saying he will be a different player. I just am willing to give him another chance.

I see what you are saying about scheme. I think sometimes to your point of confidence it can even be culture or opportunity that can change it. I was probably one of the last to think TJ could turn a corner because of his youth. I've just seen nothing out of him that makes me think he can be salvaged. Hope I'm wrong. It'd be great to have another piece and TJ seems like a helluva kid.

[Lazlo4D]

TJ Leaf has just not improved his game. As a rookie, his 3P% as .429 then .258 his second year and .278 last year. Plus his FT% last year was dismal, less than 44%. Is that confidence or not putting in the work?

If he was shooting, his rookie 3P% of .429 or better, then at 6'-10" that's getting close to Kyle Korver value.