2020 Draft & Free Agency

[Scoot McGroot]

TJ Leaf has just not improved his game. As a rookie, his 3P% as .429 then .258 his second year and .278 last year. Plus his FT% last year was dismal, less than 44%. Is that confidence or not putting in the work?

If he was shooting, his rookie 3P% of .429 or better, then at 6'-10" that's getting close to Kyle Korver value.

Oh, we all agree. Any promise he may have shown has disappeared. We have questions of him putting in the work with reports that he refused GLeague assignments, but there’s also reason to think he had his confidence killed by basically not being coached by McMillan, much like Turner and AHoliday have had their roles jerked around quickly every season.

[Pacers_Freak]

TJ Leaf has just not improved his game. As a rookie, his 3P% as .429 then .258 his second year and .278 last year. Plus his FT% last year was dismal, less than 44%. Is that confidence or not putting in the work?

If he was shooting, his rookie 3P% of .429 or better, then at 6'-10" that's getting close to Kyle Korver value.

Oh, we all agree. Any promise he may have shown has disappeared. We have questions of him putting in the work with reports that he refused GLeague assignments, but there’s also reason to think he had his confidence killed by basically not being coached by McMillan, much like Turner and AHoliday have had their roles jerked around quickly every season.

Why are we assuming he wasn't being coached?

[Scoot McGroot]

TJ Leaf has just not improved his game. As a rookie, his 3P% as .429 then .258 his second year and .278 last year. Plus his FT% last year was dismal, less than 44%. Is that confidence or not putting in the work?

If he was shooting, his rookie 3P% of .429 or better, then at 6'-10" that's getting close to Kyle Korver value.

Oh, we all agree. Any promise he may have shown has disappeared. We have questions of him putting in the work with reports that he refused GLeague assignments, but there’s also reason to think he had his confidence killed by basically not being coached by McMillan, much like Turner and AHoliday have had their roles jerked around quickly every season.

Why are we assuming he wasn't being coached?

Because Nate McMillan constantly said that his philosophy was "the players have got to figure it out themselves". And the jerking it around is referring how Aaron Holiday was given 3 or 4 different roles this year based on injuries, and Myles was sent home from the 2018 season and asked to bulk up and play center, and then the first day of this past camp in 2019 was asked to slim down and play the perimeter at PF. The players that did best under McMillan were the ones that were basically put in the best position to succeed and allowed to do so. Nate let Oladipo, Sabonis, and Warren play their games they always have and let them free, and they did well. But anybody that was asked to fit a role, and not play their skill, seemed to regress or plateau, or be set back in their progress.

[pacers33granger]

Leaf likely didn't get much coaching as he ended up becoming a type of player we didn't have time to invest in. We certainly could have used a stretch 4, but when it became apparent he was more of a 5, there simply wasn't any room for him.

Honestly it was the report about him refusing to go to the G League to get reps that did it for me. I could give him the benefit of the doubt because of Nate's mediocre development with end of the bench guys. But he doesn't seem to want to work hard and/or smart to get better.

[Topofthekey]

I'm also hoping that Bjorkgren can get something out of Leaf, but it looks like playing time is going to be scarce

[Wizop]

No one has responded to the question I added in an edit. If we have a twin tower scheme for Myles and Damos, could it work for Goga and TJ?

[Scoot McGroot]

No one has responded to the question I added in an edit. If we have a twin tower scheme for Myles and Damos, could it work for Goga and TJ?

TJ Leaf? If you mean Leaf, I think it's not as easy to work, as Myles really has worked to be able to guard the perimeter, and I don't see either Goga or Leaf being able to do that this year, and see both as better suited defending the interior (though I'm not sure I see Leaf defending anything).

[Wizop]

TJ Leaf? If you mean Leaf, I think it's not as easy to work

easy? okay, I'll agree that it isn't easy particularly in a man to man. it'd take some creativity but some creativity wouldn't hurt the starters either. say we played a 1-3-1 zone with Myles underneath and Domas at the free throw line. couldn't Leaf also play at the line with Goga at the bucket? now I'm not claiming to be an expert at defensive options, but Toronto sure played unconventional ones and I expect Bjorngren to bring that flexibility here.

now, I'm not saying that we should use a 1-3-1. that's just an example of a different scheme. I'm just hoping for changes that maximize our players skills.

[Pacers_Freak]

TJ Leaf? If you mean Leaf, I think it's not as easy to work

easy? okay, I'll agree that it isn't easy particularly in a man to man. it'd take some creativity but some creativity wouldn't hurt the starters either. say we played a 1-3-1 zone with Myles underneath and Domas at the free throw line. couldn't Leaf also play at the line with Goga at the bucket? now I'm not claiming to be an expert at defensive options, but Toronto sure played unconventional ones and I expect Bjorngren to bring that flexibility here.

now, I'm not saying that we should use a 1-3-1. that's just an example of a different scheme. I'm just hoping for changes that maximize our players skills.

The traditional 1-3-1 would not be a good fit for Myles and Goga at the bottom. In a 1-3-1 your bottom guy has to be the baseline runner. You would want more of a Justin holiday at the bottom.

[Scoot McGroot]

TJ Leaf? If you mean Leaf, I think it's not as easy to work

easy? okay, I'll agree that it isn't easy particularly in a man to man. it'd take some creativity but some creativity wouldn't hurt the starters either. say we played a 1-3-1 zone with Myles underneath and Domas at the free throw line. couldn't Leaf also play at the line with Goga at the bucket? now I'm not claiming to be an expert at defensive options, but Toronto sure played unconventional ones and I expect Bjorngren to bring that flexibility here.

now, I'm not saying that we should use a 1-3-1. that's just an example of a different scheme. I'm just hoping for changes that maximize our players skills.

Maybe. But, I’m sure you agree that Leaf would have to display some better offensive production to motivate us to build a system to hide him defensively.

As it is, I’m sure hypothetically we could build systems to try and minimize the glaring weaknesses of our 15th guy, but that’s a lot of time and investment in someone furthest down the list. No matter what, if the guy can’t fix his shot and get some arc back, he simply isn’t playable no matter what we do. Maybe Bjorkgren can work miracles and do all these things, but let’s look big picture first. Normally, you hire a coach in May/June and camp starts end of September, or early October. This year, we hired a coach in October and camp looks to start in November. It’s going to be tight in terms of getting things turned around. Even if Bjorkgren has ideas of things for Leaf or whomever to work on so they come to camp prepared for a new role, it’s going to be a tight turnaround.

[Wizop]

The traditional 1-3-1 would not be a good fit for Myles and Goga at the bottom. In a 1-3-1 your bottom guy has to be the baseline runner. You would want more of a Justin holiday at the bottom.

my basketball playing was limited to intramurals at school and adult leagues at the JCCA. we played man to man defense and didn't run any plays on offense. I'm not big on X's and O's but Bjorngren is. I don't know what the best scheme for our players is, but I'm convinced that more thought needs to go into the selection than the old staff gave it.

Here's a discussion of Toronto's defense:

https://www.indycornrows.com/2020/11/2/21530468/on-the-pacers-deploying-a-revolving-defensive-approach-like-the-raptors

[pacers33granger]

I don't see how Leaf could play with Goga. There isn't a single PF in the league he can guard.

[basketballwacko2]

TJ Leaf has just not improved his game. As a rookie, his 3P% as .429 then .258 his second year and .278 last year. Plus his FT% last year was dismal, less than 44%. Is that confidence or not putting in the work?

If he was shooting, his rookie 3P% of .429 or better, then at 6'-10" that's getting close to Kyle Korver value.

Oh, we all agree. Any promise he may have shown has disappeared. We have questions of him putting in the work with reports that he refused GLeague assignments, but there’s also reason to think he had his confidence killed by basically not being coached by McMillan, much like Turner and AHoliday have had their roles jerked around quickly every season.

I don't think Nate is Leaf's problem I think he just stinks on ice! He should have been a 2nd round pick just like I said on draft night. Wasted draft pick! Who ever decided to pick him over John Collins or OG is a disgrace and should never work in the NBA again.

[basketballwacko2]

Leaf likely didn't get much coaching as he ended up becoming a type of player we didn't have time to invest in. We certainly could have used a stretch 4, but when it became apparent he was more of a 5, there simply wasn't any room for him.

Honestly it was the report about him refusing to go to the G League to get reps that did it for me. I could give him the benefit of the doubt because of Nate's mediocre development with end of the bench guys. But he doesn't seem to want to work hard and/or smart to get better.

On draft night 2017 I was on this board screaming for John Collins now look what we got! An empty uniform. Collins shooting over 40% from 3 range, averaging 20 points and 10 rebounds and bocking 1.8 shots per game! This is one of the worst draft picks in Pacers history.

[basketballwacko2]

No one has responded to the question I added in an edit. If we have a twin tower scheme for Myles and Damos, could it work for Goga and TJ?

There's a massive talent and effort drop off. Leaf is a soft Euro type player, cut him buy him out and save the roster spot for a real player.

[Scoot McGroot]

Leaf likely didn't get much coaching as he ended up becoming a type of player we didn't have time to invest in. We certainly could have used a stretch 4, but when it became apparent he was more of a 5, there simply wasn't any room for him.

Honestly it was the report about him refusing to go to the G League to get reps that did it for me. I could give him the benefit of the doubt because of Nate's mediocre development with end of the bench guys. But he doesn't seem to want to work hard and/or smart to get better.

On draft night 2017 I was on this board screaming for John Collins now look what we got! An empty uniform. Collins shooting over 40% from 3 range, averaging 20 points and 10 rebounds and bocking 1.8 shots per game! This is one of the worst draft picks in Pacers history.

In all fairness, he (Collins) absolutely failed the interview and personal background check. With his drug test failures to get a 25 game suspension already, and the fact that Atlanta isn’t totally sold on him per reports (despite being a 20/10 young player who can block shots and shoot the 3, which should make him a complete keeper, he’s mentioned in talks all the time), we may not have missed there in that regard. OG with the injury may have been a health flunk.

But yeah, I’d still have liked to take the flier in OG. He was exactly what we were needing and looking for at the time in terms of that swing forward. And as bad as Leaf has been here, just a couple years of production from OG or Collins, if the red flags eventually prove totally true, would still be more valuable than what we’ve gotten from TJ.

[basketballwacko2]

Leaf likely didn't get much coaching as he ended up becoming a type of player we didn't have time to invest in. We certainly could have used a stretch 4, but when it became apparent he was more of a 5, there simply wasn't any room for him.

Honestly it was the report about him refusing to go to the G League to get reps that did it for me. I could give him the benefit of the doubt because of Nate's mediocre development with end of the bench guys. But he doesn't seem to want to work hard and/or smart to get better.

On draft night 2017 I was on this board screaming for John Collins now look what we got! An empty uniform. Collins shooting over 40% from 3 range, averaging 20 points and 10 rebounds and bocking 1.8 shots per game! This is one of the worst draft picks in Pacers history.

In all fairness, he (Collins) absolutely failed the interview and personal background check. With his drug test failures to get a 25 game suspension already, and the fact that Atlanta isn’t totally sold on him per reports (despite being a 20/10 young player who can block shots and shoot the 3, which should make him a complete keeper, he’s mentioned in talks all the time), we may not have missed there in that regard. OG with the injury may have been a health flunk.

But yeah, I’d still have liked to take the flier in OG. He was exactly what we were needing and looking for at the time in terms of that swing forward. And as bad as Leaf has been here, just a couple years of production from OG or Collins, if the red flags eventually prove totally true, would still be more valuable than what we’ve gotten from TJ.

Still even with Collins mistakes he's got value and TJ does not.

[Scoot McGroot]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/jnwbwf/russillo_ive_heard_gordon_hayward_does_want_out/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Really sounds like the tide is turning that Hayward wants out of Boston. Not saying that Ryen Russillo proves it, just that the talking heads are all now repeating moreso that they’re hearing Hayward wants out than otherwise.

[Topofthekey]

Whale whale whale, what a fascinating turn of events

[pacers33granger]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/jnwbwf/russillo_ive_heard_gordon_hayward_does_want_out/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Really sounds like the tide is turning that Hayward wants out of Boston. Not saying that Ryen Russillo proves it, just that the talking heads are all now repeating moreso that they’re hearing Hayward wants out than otherwise.

It honestly makes more sense than the whole notion that he was going to opt out and do Boston a favor by signing a longterm deal to get them under the tax line while also being ok with being relegated to a 6th man role just because he's close to Brad.

I'm sure he feels he should be more of a featured player, though I'm also sure he understands why the situation is what it is. But it seems likely he's out and Boston ends up getting next to nothing out of that signing, which is crazy.

I still don't see him being a fit in Indy at all though. He'd have to leave a ton of money on the table and he'd still be down the line in the pecking order here too unless we sent out several starters.