Reggie denied first shot at HOF ballot

Post #1 » by **floppymoose** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:41 am

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=m ... fame021711

In a stunning result that likely will raise questions about the enshrinement process for the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame, Indiana Pacers star guard Reggie Miller failed to make the list of finalists for the 2011 induction class, sources told Yahoo! Sports.

Miller was considered this year’s most heralded nominee, but apparently did not receive the necessary votes to become a finalist in his first year of eligibility. The list of finalists will be officially announced Friday.

Miller was a nominee in the Hall’s North American group, which requires him to appear on seven of nine ballots to become a finalist. Finalists then need to receive at least 18 of 24 votes from a different panel to be inducted. The inductees will be announced at the NCAA Final Four in April with enshrinement ceremonies likely scheduled for September.

I think that's ridiculous. Not making it into the HOF on the very first try is one thing. We could argue about that, at least. Not even being on the ballot? That's just wrong.

drsimp12 · Post #2 » by **drsimp12** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:30 pm

I have been saying this all along. Reggie Miller is not a first ballot HOFer. He was a nice player, but was a sidekick pretending to be a go to guy. Hitting some clutch shots is nice, but when they don't lead to an NBA title they are kinda irrelevant.

Post #3 » by **Miller4ever** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:51 pm

Yeah, I guess you're right.

chube · Post #4 » by **chube** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:56 pm

True. But from what I've heard, it's not like this year's class is as stacked as the one a couple years ago with MJ, David Robinson, Sloan, Stockton, etc. Miller was widely believed to be the front-runner in this class, which to me is why it's so surprising.

captaincrunk · Post #5 » by **captaincrunk** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:22 pm

drsimp12 wrote:I have been saying this all along. Reggie Miller is not a first ballot HOFer. He was a nice player, but was a sidekick pretending to be a go to guy. Hitting some clutch shots is nice, but when they don't lead to an NBA title they are kinda irrelevant.

That's just not really true. Tell MJ that Reggie Miller was irrelevant, and see if he agrees.

Post #6 » by **mizzoupacers** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:26 pm

Reggie Miller scored more points than all but thirteen other players in NBA history. That alone makes him a hall-of-famer. And it's a pretty damned good argument for being a first-ballot HOFer...at least put him on the ballot so there can be a debate. What a joke that he won't even be on the ballot.

Starkiller · Post #7 » by **Starkiller** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:51 pm

captaincrunk wrote:
drsimp12 wrote:I have been saying this all along. Reggie Miller is not a first ballot HOFer. He was a nice player, but was a sidekick pretending to be a go to guy. Hitting some clutch shots is nice, but when they don't lead to an NBA title they are kinda irrelevant.

That's just not really true. Tell MJ that Reggie Miller was irrelevant, and see if he agrees.

Best comment on the subject so far, in either thread for this.

drsimp12 · Post #8 » by **drsimp12** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:19 pm

The truth hurts sometimes. Reggie Miller was overrated and not being on the 1st ballot shows this. Debate it all you want. Facts are facts. He is not on the list.

Reggie Miller averaged 18.2 points per game and had to play 1,389 games just to get 13th on the list. The conclusion that can be made from that is that he had to play a TON of games just to get 13th on the list. So it speaks more to longevity than it does greatness. Sure playing 1,389 games is not and easy task, but what he did scoring wise is not out of the ordinary. Nothing sets him apart from any other decent sidekick NBA player.

So again. Reggie Miller was overrated, and not being on the ballot for the 1st time possible shows this.

Deal.

cavsfan_osiris · Post #9 » by **cavsfan_osiris** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:24 pm

To me Reggie was underrated his whole career, this is just another example of that.

Post #10 » by **mizzoupacers** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:25 pm

OK, I wasted the last 30 minutes searching for a list of first-ballot HOFers. Couldn't find one. If anyone has it, I'd love to see it posted here.

Post #11 » by **mizzoupacers** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:29 pm

I hate to feed the troll...

But longevity IS greatness. Reggie Miller is seventh all-time in NBA/ABA minutes played. The top six are:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Karl Malone
3. Elvin Hayes
4. Moses Malone
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. John Stockton

Of course, those guys weren't really as good as you think. They just played a long time.

Post #12 » by **Miller4ever** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:29 pm

drsimp12 wrote:The truth hurts sometimes. Reggie Miller was overrated and not being on the 1st ballot shows this. Debate it all you want. Facts are facts. He is not on the list.

Reggie Miller averaged 18.2 points per game and had to play 1,389 games just to get 13th on the list. The conclusion that can be made from that is that he had to play a TON of games just to get 13th on the list. So it speaks more to longevity than it does greatness. Sure playing 1,389 games is not and easy task, but what he did scoring wise is not out of the ordinary. Nothing sets him apart from any other decent sidekick NBA player.

So again. Reggie Miller was overrated, and not being on the ballot for the 1st time possible shows this.

Deal.

Post #13 » by **Miller4ever** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:30 pm

The other guys up for it are most notably guys like Maurice Lucas and Bernard King, who have been knocking at the door a while. Mark Jackson is also up there.

Post #14 » by **floppymoose** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:31 pm

It doesn't matter if he isn't a first ballot hall of famer. IRRELEVANT.

What matters is if he is a guy who at least belongs on the ballot. I think it's pretty obvious he does.

Post #15 » by **mizzoupacers** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:51 pm

floppymoose wrote:It doesn't matter if he isn't a first ballot hall of famer. IRRELEVANT.

What matters is if he is a guy who at least belongs on the ballot. I think it's pretty obvious he does.

Agreed that what makes this insulting to Pacers fans is not the first-ballot thing but that he isn't even on the ballot. Any reasonable person can see that he should at least be on the ballot.

I'll concede that there are reasonable people who don't think he should be a first-ballot HOFer. Frankly, I don't get the stigma attached to the first-time ballot. If there are no better candidates to be on this year's ballot--and among former NBA players, there aren't--then why shouldn't Reggie Miller at least be on the ballot? But that's just me.

drsimp12 · Post #16 » by **drsimp12** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:52 pm

Kevin Willis played 1,424 was he a GREAT player?

drsimp12 · Post #17 » by **drsimp12** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:54 pm

That's the thing he does not deserve to be on the ballot. What has he accomplished in his NBA career? Hanging out for 18 seasons in not enough.

Post #18 » by **Miller4ever** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:59 pm

Again, I can't argue with that logic. You're right.

Post #19 » by **mizzoupacers** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:30 pm

drsimp12 wrote:Kevin Willis played 1,424 was he a GREAT player?

No, he wasn't. If he was, he would be higher in the all-time stats for things centers are customarily good at, such as blocking shots and field-goal pct. (he's not even in the top 100 all-time for either). Willis is not in the top 20 in any career category that I'm aware of, although he is 23rd all-time in rebounds, which is pretty solid.

In contrast, Miller is #2 all-time in made 3-pointers, #9 in free throw pct., #14 in made free throws, #14 in total points...

What you are doing is cherry-picking one of about five or six guys among the NBA's top fifty in all-time minutes played and claiming he is representative, when in fact he is a statistical anomaly. Ninety percent, or close to it, of the NBA's top fifty in minutes played were great players. Of the top ten, where Miller is, it's 100 percent (or so I would argue). That they were great players can be verified by numerous other measures. Sorta like I just did with Reggie Miller.

captaincrunk · Post #20 » by **captaincrunk** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:54 pm

drsimp12 wrote:The truth hurts sometimes. Reggie Miller was overrated and not being on the 1st ballot shows this. Debate it all you want. Facts are facts. He is not on the list.

Reggie Miller averaged 18.2 points per game and had to play 1,389 games just to get 13th on the list. The conclusion that can be made from that is that he had to play a TON of games just to get 13th on the list. So it speaks more to longevity than it does greatness. Sure playing 1,389 games is not and easy task, but what he did scoring wise is not out of the ordinary. Nothing sets him apart from any other decent sidekick NBA player.

So again. Reggie Miller was overrated, and not being on the ballot for the 1st time possible shows this.

Deal.

Really? In the 2001 playoffs, over 22 games, he averaged 24 points. Not bad at all.

He averaged 25 PPG in his first 12 playoffs. Oh, did you notice that? His first TWELVE playoff appearances? Yeah, he had more than that. As the #1 guy on the Indiana Pacers of all teams.

The fact remains that he made the pacers playoff relevant for 15 seasons as the #1 guy. Hell, his team was the only team to beat the 72-10 bulls TWICE. Not bad either.