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As much as I like Bird...

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DWCP2
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As much as I like Bird... 

Post#1 » by DWCP2 » Thu May 31, 2012 1:04 am

I don't know if I'd want him back. I've said it for years that he's the achielles heal to the growth and development of Tyler Hansbrough! Here is Tyler an aggressive force towards the end of the 2011 season, and they put his energy on the bench which could help but so far I've seen it hinder him much the same way Jim O'Brien hindered Roy Hibbert!

So still think Tyler is our future star at PF once West's deal is done after next season!
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#2 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 31, 2012 2:13 am

I'm not sure why Bird would be the one to hinder Tyler. Wouldn't it be Vogel hindering his development (if you think that is the case)?

Otherwise, I think Tyler is a solid rotational PF, but is being exposed for being the flawed player he is. Every team could use a Hansbrough, but for something like a 3yr/$9 million deal. Not at MLE or higher salary.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#3 » by DWCP2 » Thu May 31, 2012 2:32 am

This is Larry's team, Vogel just coaches it!
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#4 » by Wizop » Thu May 31, 2012 3:48 am

watch Larry's final press conference from today and then tell me if he sees a thing differently than we do.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#5 » by Boneman2 » Thu May 31, 2012 6:22 am

DWCP2 wrote:This is Larry's team, Vogel just coaches it!


While I agree this is Bird's coup, in no way, shape, or form is he responsible for Tyler's inability to hit the 15-18 footer, like he was doing at the end of 2011. For Hansbrough to be effective he needs to keep defenses honest by hitting the same shot Haslem killed us with. This causes his defender to run at him, which makes it easier for him to penetrate. When he is off, they sag, and he is useless on offense, with exception to drawing a good number of shooting fouls, at times, and the occasional hustle play.

I don't see how you think Bird's status is contingent upon Tyler's development. Larry's status is not even remotely dependant on the latter.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#6 » by Moooose » Thu May 31, 2012 6:56 am

I would take Larry over almost any other GM's in the league not named R.C. Buford.

Larry knows his thing and Simon trusts him, that's how he's been running the franchise for years now. And the product? A team Larry wants, filled with good, young guys on their way to maturity. I agree with Vogel on his stand that this team can be contenders for the next 5 - 7 years, if we keep the core intact. Bird said he wants the players to grow with the franchise, so i think Indiana basketball is in very good hands with Larry.

Tyler's development was hindered merely by the arrival of David West. Before West came in, Tyler had the same per 36mpg stats as West. With one year left in West's contract, i think it would be wise to keep Hansbrough. West can have a better season but he's still not getting any younger.

I am really pleased of Larry's aura in his press conference. He seems excited, and very optimistic. It's like he's itching to make the offseason duties running.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#7 » by DWCP2 » Thu May 31, 2012 1:48 pm

Tyler could have been a solid starter without the West acquisition this year.

But this year is behind us and now they can look to the future.

Tyler I feel is this team's future at PF. What will be interesting is when he takes the reigns. The Pacers could deal West's ending contract along with Collison, D. Jones, and Pendergraph in efforts to tweak and improve the roster.

As much as Tyler is a solid energy guy on the bench, not to mention one of the guys that did not quit during the game Larry Bird called out the soft players, so is Lou Amundson.

Lou is definately worthy of a resign @ 2-3 million a season.

Would I like to see them deal off West and give the PF spot to Hansbrough and Amundson? Yes!

However the decision doesn't have to be made for one year if they choose to do so.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#8 » by Wizop » Thu May 31, 2012 5:12 pm

Larry went out of his way at his presser to say he expects Stevenson and Pendergraph to contribute next year. Hansbrough must develop a left hand to be effective. if he continues to only have a right hand and to need to take two steps to gather himself, he will never be a starter. I'd put the odds of extending West way above the odds of Tyler beating him out. in fact if the draft or free agency or resigning Fes gives us a real backup center so that Lou and Jeff P are in the mix at PF, Tyler will have to improve just to stay on the second unit.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#9 » by Moooose » Thu May 31, 2012 5:53 pm

Wizop wrote:Larry went out of his way at his presser to say he expects Stevenson and Pendergraph to contribute next year. Hansbrough must develop a left hand to be effective. if he continues to only have a right hand and to need to take two steps to gather himself, he will never be a starter. I'd put the odds of extending West way above the odds of Tyler beating him out. in fact if the draft or free agency or resigning Fes gives us a real backup center so that Lou and Jeff P are in the mix at PF, Tyler will have to improve just to stay on the second unit.


Geez, i forgot about those lines about Lance and Pendergraph. To me, Bird showed much, I mean MUCH, hope on the future of Lance and Pendergraph in his press conference. Well, Lance did well this year staying off the troubles, except for the choking gesture on the Heat, which was blown way out of proportion by the media and the "temporary" fans.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#10 » by Pacersike » Fri Jun 1, 2012 12:32 pm

Wizop wrote:watch Larry's final press conference from today and then tell me if he sees a thing differently than we do.

Who else sees the new Jalen Rose in Stephenson? :P

Restricted or not, where's the harm in making a player an offer you are willing to spend? How u know it will be matched or outbid? What if Mayo is willing to take a relatively high 1 year deal? No offer at all?
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#11 » by tocooks » Sun Jun 3, 2012 11:11 pm

NBA legends, coaches of the year and executives of the year don't exactly grow on trees, not sure I agree with your point about Hansbrough either considering Bird is the one who drafted him. What happens after that is really up to the player, and the coach to a certain extent.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#12 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jun 4, 2012 1:10 am

Pacersike wrote:
Wizop wrote:watch Larry's final press conference from today and then tell me if he sees a thing differently than we do.

Who else sees the new Jalen Rose in Stephenson? :P

Restricted or not, where's the harm in making a player an offer you are willing to spend? How u know it will be matched or outbid? What if Mayo is willing to take a relatively high 1 year deal? No offer at all?


Making an offer and signing an offer sheet is a relatively dangerous situation. Worst case scenario, you make an offer that is accepted by the player, and the team holding his rights takes all 3 days to decide, while the other free agents on the market sign elsewhere. Then, after 3 days, they decide to match, leaving you with the bottom dregs of the free agency barrel.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#13 » by 8305 » Mon Jun 4, 2012 2:59 am

Have to agree with Wiz. You extend West. If we intend to have a team built in the image of the 2004 to 2008 Pistons you can't have a guy like Tyler in the starting lineup. He simply isn't nor will he ever be that good. With Pendergraph and the possibility of resigning Amundson, I'd be fine with moving Tyler for GSW pick 30 or Bobcats pick 31. There are some interesting guys who will likely still be available.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#14 » by DWCP2 » Mon Jun 4, 2012 3:17 am

8305 wrote:Have to agree with Wiz. You extend West. If we intend to have a team built in the image of the 2004 to 2008 Pistons you can't have a guy like Tyler in the starting lineup. He simply isn't nor will he ever be that good. With Pendergraph and the possibility of resigning Amundson, I'd be fine with moving Tyler for GSW pick 30 or Bobcats pick 31. There are some interesting guys who will likely still be available.


By signing West they bought Hansbrough time to develop.

Yeah ok he needs to develop a left hand. So what? Bird made that comment about Granger what was it last yearr? 2 years ago?

I expect things to unravel slowly when they trade Collison on draft night or not long after.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#15 » by DWCP2 » Mon Jun 4, 2012 3:29 am

tocooks wrote:NBA legends, coaches of the year and executives of the year don't exactly grow on trees, not sure I agree with your point about Hansbrough either considering Bird is the one who drafted him. What happens after that is really up to the player, and the coach to a certain extent.


Think one part of it was injuries, but the other part was he needed to make a significant upgrade and he only saw Hansbrough and McRoberts as bench performers.

Also the biggest reason why Al Harrington didn't get along with him and hence was sent packing twice.

Sometimes I wonder was it Mike Wells media pressure or desire to stay that got David West here.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#16 » by 8305 » Mon Jun 4, 2012 10:47 am

DWCP2 wrote:
8305 wrote:Have to agree with Wiz. You extend West. If we intend to have a team built in the image of the 2004 to 2008 Pistons you can't have a guy like Tyler in the starting lineup. He simply isn't nor will he ever be that good. With Pendergraph and the possibility of resigning Amundson, I'd be fine with moving Tyler for GSW pick 30 or Bobcats pick 31. There are some interesting guys who will likely still be available.


By signing West they bought Hansbrough time to develop.

Yeah ok he needs to develop a left hand. So what? Bird made that comment about Granger what was it last yearr? 2 years ago?

I expect things to unravel slowly when they trade Collison on draft night or not long after.


I can't say for sure what the objective was when West was signed but after watching what you get with West as opposed to Tyler for a year I'd say you ride David as long as possible. Developing a left hand won't make Tyler a better rebounder or defender or make him a quicker jumper. It won't give him a feel for the game that allows him to participate in an offense that calls for ball movement and making the extra pass. The guys 26 years old. He might marginally improve some of his weaknesses but at this point he is what he is.

I'll say it again, he will never be a starting caliber power forward.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#17 » by Indy2thaWindy » Mon Jun 4, 2012 10:50 am

How much were people expecting Hansbrough to develop? He was nearly a finished product coming out of college. I think he was 24 as a rookie. He was never going to be a full-time starter and sometimes doesn't even look like a rotational player. Most hated the pick at the time if I remember. Then Hansbrough had like a good 20 game stretch in his 2nd season that surprised a lot of people and made them back off the selection a bit. But outside of that he really hasn't been that good. I still look at it as a bad pick.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#18 » by DWCP2 » Wed Jun 6, 2012 4:34 am

Let's put it in another example, Ezarem Lorbek!

The man kept signing extension after extension w/ overseas ballclubs and was never given a chance with the Pacers despite developing solid defense and shooting!

His right were traded in the George Hill trade and he's expected to be in a Spurs uniform next season.

As great a mind Larry Bird is, I think he tends to get tunnel vision with players and circumstances that are either behind the times or not effective to what he has in front of him.

Case in point Rick Carlisle and Jim O'Brien, relying on his Celtic roots and going as far as to say he will make the players fit the coaching not vice versa. As a result, each got respectively canned when things started going south!

I will take Hansbroughs heart and passion for the game over anyone you can throw at him. Get him into a system and role that he can show that and I doubt few can stop him.
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Re: As much as I like Bird... 

Post#19 » by 8305 » Wed Jun 6, 2012 4:10 pm

I fail to see where the Lorbek example fits your arguement. My recall is he was under contract in Europe until this year. No Euro player would have come over this season. Immediately after the 2005 draft he wasn't ready and we didn't have a place for him anyway. I don't know how many extensions he signed but, we really had no opportunity for him for a number of years.

I think you can argue that Bird wanted George Hill a little too much and overpaid for him. That said I really like George HIll and I don't think a fair assessment can be made of that trade yet.

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