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I just replied to jowglenn on the General Forum about our current plight, I thought it might be interesting to see what you guys think, so I took the liberty of duplicating the original and the reply here:

jowglenn wrote:I think the real question (and I'm a Pacers fan) is....

Is Frank Vogel massively overrated as a coach? He gets named a lot as a popular '2nd tier' sort of great coach (after Pops, Thibs, Carlisle... Rivers...) but I'm not sure anymore.

He took over from Jim O'Brien back in 2011, and yes, managed to help get the Pacers into the playoffs (with a losing record). 2011-2012 they had a great record and made the 2nd round (adding D West and Hill helped). 2012-2013 had a good record and made the conference finals. This season, his 3rd full year as the head coach, they're probably going to win the East.

But I'm not sure he deserves THAT much credit for any of it. His coaching career basically just aligns with the addition of David West and the rise of Hibbert, George, and Stephenson from middling prospects to bonafide great players. How much is really due to Vogel, and how much to these players?

OK, they've got a historically good defense - Hibbert became a better defensive big than anyone envisioned, and George blossomed into a top wing defender who can cover 1s, 2s, and 3s. Vogel definitely has a big part in that.


But this team's offense has sucked for years now. We only had it going early in the season because Paul George was on a hot streak. After that died, the offense has been beyond bad... it's been PUTRID. AWFUL. TERRIBLE. And yeah, you can blame the personnel, just as you can give the personnel credit for the rise from fringe to contender... but I think you gotta consider whether Frank Vogel can't run an offense to save his life.


Does anyone doubt that this team would have a much smoother offense if, say, Rick Carlisle was coaching? I am sure of it.

I'm not questioning Vogel for a second. I don't think we would have got this good without him. Sure, he benefited from getting West, George and Stephenson were indeed rising, but would they have risen this high without Vogel? I don't think so.

Is Vogel not the best offensive coach - no doubt, but that is a choice you make as franchise. Vogel clearly puts more stock on D than on O and that is what carried us this far.

Is Vogel going to make adjustments on offense? Yes, but you can't factor out the loss of chemistry with the moves this season and the inevitable fatigue that comes with playing the way we play. There is actually previous on this slump:

This season we have been dreadful in back-to-backs, losing a lot of the second games regardless of opposition. This shows that the way we play takes a lot out of the guys, particularly the starters - this is now catching up at the end of a long season. West and Scola are getting on in age/wear and tear, George and Stephenson are young lads that have no experience of running a full season at full pelt as the key-guys in an offense. Add to that the fact that Hibbert is a big unit, he is never going to be as fit as a Paul George type of guy.

A lot of this is down to fatigue. But not all - we have indeed lacked in offensive rhythm, all season I might add, the games where we outscored opponents massively are outnumbered by the games where we scraped it by quite a lot. Is that down to Vogel? Possibly, but still the record we have at the moment is way better than what I expected at the start of the year, so he must have done something right.

I would like to see a change in the way the back-room staff operates - I feel we need a dedicated offensive guy. I thought Nate McMillan would bring that, but I haven't really seen evidence of it.

hehehe I just posted a copy/paste of it myself here - i've deleted the thread since you beat me to it.

I really think that if the Pacers get knocked out before the ECF, Vogel might be gone - this roster is the roster we've got, they won't make any major shakeup... but if a better coaching candidate is out there, don't be surprised if Larry lets Frank go. It's possible.

Vogel obviously has done a great job of instilling a hard-nosed defensive culture on this team, as well as developing players like Hibbert, George, and Lance... but once the development is done, I'm not sure he does a great job of managing the team on a night-in, night-out basis. He hasn't been able to orchestrate decent passes into the post in the whole time (admittedly an issue with personnel as well) and I'm not sure the back-to-back failures (where the Pacers lose the 2nd night of back-to-backs all teh freaking time) is really just "oh well, they get tired". Don't other teams? This team has mostly pretty young legs and good depth.

Not to mention pulling Hibbert on the final possession in game 1 of the ECF last year... only to watch Lebron drive for the game-winning layup. Then again, Popovich made a similar mistake by sitting Timmy in crucial moments of the Finals...


I think Vogel is a great developmental coach, defensive mindset coach and great team-chemistry coach, but I'm just not sure he's a good enough tactician.

several of my friends on a pacer's listserv are thinking Bird needs to take over as coach. I'm not sure that would help. I do think the coaches need to enforce accountability with bench time. Wisconsin goes to the extreme of immediately sitting anyone who turns the ball over. I'm not sure I'd go that far in the pros but I've long thought that substituting totally by the clock is a mistake.

Haha, interesting that we had the same idea jowglenn

You certainly raise some valid points, but I am not ready to shove Vogel out of the door (yet, if we fail miserably in the play-offs that might change my mind). Firstly, I am a believer of dynasties - that includes having faith in the development of a coach. Vogel is a young coach and he has got flaws, but he also has an incredibly experienced FO to rely on when things go wrong and to help develop him.

Although things are very drab at the moment, there have been plenty of good things as well - I genuinely didn't think we would reach 50 wins this early in the season for example, not something that is easy to dismiss.

I think it's only fair to blame everyone on the team coaching staff and players. I don't think it's vogels fault but the lack of offensive talent we have on the team. The best player Paul George. Is only shooting I think like 41-42 percent.

mikepacernation wrote:I think it's only fair to blame everyone on the team coaching staff and players. I don't think it's vogels fault but the lack of offensive talent we have on the team. The best player Paul George. Is only shooting I think like 41-42 percent.

I dont think we are low on offensive talent at all. Look at Augustin, Green, hell even Granger at the Clips. It is a result of the system I think, a system focussed on defense (energy wise) and lacking offensive energy. Our biggest friend this season might well be our biggest enemy as well.

For the most part, I agree with jowglenn. Vogel's praises came a bit prematurely. Credit him to run a great D and get everyone to buy in, but beyond that....
When players leave and become better (DJ, green, Granger) that's not a sign of a good coach. To that let me point to Hill and Copeland. I think Hill is not being used properly, and there is no reason we shouldn't have Copeland playing 20 mins a night at this point. At least try in once in two months of offensive struggles. If he was playing the 4, the amount of spacing we would have for all our slashers would be nuts, could really open up the scoring.
TRY SOMETHING to get a spark.
Pop, Spo, they will change their starting line ups from game to game, Vogel's mindset is so unadaptable.
I also don't like how he substitutes.
So in summary, if he gets credit for the D, he has to take blame for the terrible bench, and terrible offense. Not a top 5 coach.

I'm not a pacer "fan". But I think this team OVERALL is having problems dealing with the expectations and pacing of the long season. Nobody on this team has ever been in the position as "top dog". Hibbert, Lance, PG, Mahimi, ET, David West, Scola, AND VOGEL don't have much experience in BEING the top dog. I think the Pacers excel at being the hunter but are terrible at being hunted.

when you compare it to the heat or spurs situation. A lot of these guys have experience being "hunted" on even the high school or college level (NCAA Tournament, International Tournament, High High School Ranking) so the expectations that come with being the hunted are nothing new to these guys. The pacers on the other hand are facing teams they know they are better than but were not aware that they were circled on that teams calendar (bad team circling pacers) and are struggling with that pressure day in and day out.


A lot of things in life really just boils down to your experience and mentality. I question both of these characteristics for the pacers.

The whole thing is certainly interesting. It had never occurred to me to blame Vogel. But now I think about it more and more (due to this thread and jowglenn (THANKS BUDDY!) I am actually beginning to realise a number of flaws.

Live and learn. Still going to defend him though, he will learn!

GrandBasterd wrote:For the most part, I agree with jowglenn. Vogel's praises came a bit prematurely. Credit him to run a great D and get everyone to buy in, but beyond that....
When players leave and become better (DJ, green, Granger) that's not a sign of a good coach. To that let me point to Hill and Copeland. I think Hill is not being used properly, and there is no reason we shouldn't have Copeland playing 20 mins a night at this point. At least try in once in two months of offensive struggles. If he was playing the 4, the amount of spacing we would have for all our slashers would be nuts, could really open up the scoring.
TRY SOMETHING to get a spark.
Pop, Spo, they will change their starting line ups from game to game, Vogel's mindset is so unadaptable.
I also don't like how he substitutes.
So in summary, if he gets credit for the D, he has to take blame for the terrible bench, and terrible offense. Not a top 5 coach.

I agree with you. I hate that he doesn't really even give copeland a chance if he does he plays like 5 mins.

Unfortunately, I think Vogel has played a major role in our sudden decline. Coaches play a very important role on teams like ours, where we don't have a true superstar to take over and just make it work. Our offense has never been great, but it's been effective. We used to go the line 30x a night, play inside-out, use simpler plays that at least got guys open shots. We saw hints of that vs. MIA last week. But we don't do that anymore. I'd really wished B Shaw had installed more Triangle sets when he was here. Our spacing is terrible, as is our passing. Where are the PNRoll/Pop plays we used to see all the time? Backdoor allys for Paul? Aggressive drives to the basket? We don't see those anymore. And we're gonna end up losing to Charlotte in the 1st round if we don't get it together...

I don't think it's Vogel's fault but I also think he doesn't know how to fix it. driving home from the game I heard Boyle say he'd lock the team in a room and make them watch Spurs tape. Pop has his team spaced beautifully. Slick apparently said he'd make the players talk out whatever is bothering them. my bottom line is we're better when Lance has the ball in his hands. PG has to stop trying to do it on his own. DWest probably needs a week of rest.