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Our bench has played terrible 2 games in a row. Not many people know why. Our plus minus is like the winter weather in Antarctica with this 2nd unit. We have talent; however, it's not showing. If you recall, our bench (along with West and G. HIll) is the reason why we beat Atlanta. They weren't dominant but they were good enough to get the job done. Hibbert and Lance were not playing well in that series so Ian and Copeland took care of business. So with all this said, what IS wrong with our bench? What can we do to fix it?

Scola: Seems like he either shoots above 50% or below 30% (not official). He's been inconsistent. It's relevant to playing time so I don't think that's the biggest issue. I think he's looking for a shot first and then pass second. IMO, it should be the opposite for him. He should look to pass first and then shoot second. Most importantly I would like to see him near the basket for layups and dunks. If he can get to the basket more, he would be way more efficient.

Turner: They should've named him turnover. . He's got talent. He can drive to the hoop almost every time; however, what happens there is what's aggravating. He needs to learn where and when the passes go. He can handle the ball and he can rebound. That's awesome for a guard. He's at his best when he drives in. He's not a good jump shooter so why not try to drive in or play in the post? If he can play near the basket more instead of shooting jumps hots (at least right now) our team can improve significantly.

CJ Watson: I really can't ask for more from him. He knows his role and he plays hard at both ends of the floor. He can shoot the 3 point shot extremely well. He's an above avg. Defensive player and has the right attitude. The more open looks he gets, the better we will be. The only thing I dislike about his game is that once in a while he will force a layup when he should pass instead. He's our best bench player right now IMO.

Ian: I really can't ask for more from him either. He plays D and plays hard. He cares about the game and the team. No drama. Andrew Bynum came and he didn't say a word. Definition of a professional. Many people thought we got ripped off when we sent Collison to DAL for him. Collison is good but we got what we wanted. An above average back up center. Can't ask for more. Of course there is something that I would like to see more from him: Be aggressive on O. He passes the ball well and doesn't turn it over; however, when he's under the rim I am expecting a JAM but he will occasionally get blocked. He's still better than 90% of the back up centers in the league so I really can't complain.

Copeland: All he does is shoot 3's and plays no D. That may sound bad; however, he always gives a 100% and plays with a huge chip on his shoulder. He knows he can shoot the ball. He instantly forgets the last play and is ready for the next play. If he's on, he can make 3-5 3's in a half. If a player is playing at 100% I would not mind if he's bad at D (for 8-11 minutes a game) I think he's our secret weapon of the bench and if we can figure out a way to use him efficiently, we will go to that next level.

I highly doubt the rest of the bench will get playing time but if they do, we need players that can put the ball in the basket without turning it over. That's my two cents. Sorry if it was too long. Any opinions on how we can get our bench to play better?

(p.s. sorry for the grammar/spelling errors. I wrote this really fast.)

I personally think our bench is fine and that Vogel is now adjusting to the match-up pretty well. The only thing I don't like about our bench right now is Turner doing iso plays and Scola hitting the floor a lot. But I believe we can use Turner's isolation plays on some matchups and Scola is a big big factor with the experience he brings.

In the series with Atlanta, we needed to rely on our bench, namely Copeland and Scola, to match-up with the perimeter shooting bigs of the Hawks. Hibbert is just too slow and was still in his slump so Vogel did the right thing of not playing him that much.

With this series with Washington, I think we needed to engage our starters more. Hibbert is coming along pretty nicely and George Hill's been good matching up with Wall. They have a few bigs who can hit long shots like Gooden and Nene, but not like Atlanta's. Our guys in West and Scola can pretty much match-up with these guys and can play perimeter ball too. We are not rebounding that well in this series and maybe that's why Copeland isn't playing. We needed more muscle inside to contain Nene and Copeland is for a different strategy. As far as the other players go, I think Mahinmi's playing well as a reliever. Watson is always serviceable. Turner is an odd fit, but he fits. Well, somehow. He is a different player than Lance and I think we are still yet to see how to use a guy like him for the second unit. With Lance, the ball flows into the offense. With Turner, the play begins and ends with the ball in his hands. I think having Turner is more of a benefit than a liability as the opposing players need to adjust to a different defensive strategy when he is playing. He is not Paul George but he demands a defender.

I am interested to see Lavoy Allen play some minutes, but I would understand why Vogel will spare him in this series.

Obligatory Evan Turner sucks, because he does.

I think the biggest problem is that Vogel doesn't run a lot of set play in the half court. You can throw the starters our there and let them play on their own and it'll work, but that's just not possible with players on the bench, which leads to a lot of bad shots.

Scola's one attribute is his mid range jumper, Cope can only shoot 3s, Watson doesn't do much in the half court besides 3s, Mahinmi is only good for dunks and putbacks, and Turner tries to drive too much and throw up bad shots. They all work well when we have some starters in with them, but they can't play well on their own.

That's why Vogel has tried to have 3 starters on the floor at all times.

I just think the line-up featuring Turner and Scola is not a good fit, especially when Turner is not attacking the rim and Scola is thinking too much. Hopefully things will change, but they have not hit any type of rhythm together.

I don't disagree on many of your points TP31, but keep in mind that it's the play-offs, bench players see irregular minutes and, unfortunately, Vogel isn't very good with the bench - looking for different combinations all the time. I agree with Jake, if we had more half court plays for the bench it would be better - this has been an issue all year and, frankly, the years before.

It is what it is!

That's a very good point you guys made: half-court plays by the bench. I hope they get a lot more playing time Vs. the Wizards in game 5 because that can boost their confidence.

The true test for our bench will be against Miami, their bench has been worse then ours so we should have the advantage. Ive said all along to beat Miami we have to get better bench production and have homecourt, I think we got both.

What's wrong with our bench? They aren't very good. They haven't been very good since Luis Scola's shot went away bsck in January. I think it's time to go with Copeland over Scola again. I think he's a better match on Harrington. Either shorten the rotation to take Turner out with his minutes to Waton or give Butler some run. They were epically bad Sunday. I hope Frank has some kind of response to that performance.

Agree with jake. It's Vogel.
He is a terrible offensive coach, and the back ups are just left to the wind. If given some framework and plays, they have the talent to score.
Look at green when he left.
Look at DJ under thibbs.

These guys can score. So can cope. So can turner.
Cj is able to make the most out of it cause he is a veteran point guard.

It's all about catching a rhythm in the playoffs and Scola is a veteran in this league... look for him to get aggressive this game.... this is his type of game... Washington will press on defense and Scola and CJ are going to make they pay hard in the second half!

Go Pacers (for this round at least)!

GrandBasterd wrote:Look at DJ under thibbs.

although DJ was a total bust in Toronto as well as in Indy. could it be the old "horses for courses" idea instead of the coach? very few pro coaches change their system to fit their players - particularly their bench players who play limited minutes. now I'm not saying the coaches are right. I was a big Tom Moore fan and he saw his job as getting the best 11 on the field and then putting them in positions that maximized what they were good at and minimized what they were bad at. at the other extreme was Bill Parcel's who wanted to "shop for the groceries" even though I think it is clear that there are not enough hours in the day to be both coach and gm.

which leaves the question: are Bird and Vogel not on the same page even though they have the same name albeit in different languages?

GrandBasterd wrote:Agree with jake. It's Vogel.
He is a terrible offensive coach, and the back ups are just left to the wind. If given some framework and plays, they have the talent to score.
Look at green when he left.

I don't think what the Suns do on offense has a lot of structure to it. They run alot, put up a lot of 3's and have more of a pure point guard. All of which probably calls for Gerald Green to think a lot less. Since defense isn't emphisized alot there, that's one more thing he's bad at that doesn't matter that much.

The thing that never happened here with Vogel that might have made a difference with DJ was minutes. But Geroge Hill had just signed his big contract that I think resulted in the thinking that he should play exclusively at point guard. DJ ultimately was part of a three man guard rotation in Chicago getting more minutes.

I think in hindsight you wonder if managment and the coach were on the same page in the acquisition of Green and Augustine.