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Been a very long time since I have posted on here. I've been lurking, watching, reading.

This team has sparked a conversation amongst my friends. The thing is though, I want to know what Pacer fan think who aren't in my inner circle. I want to know how you guys feel.

My stance: Frank Vogel deserved an A+ for the job he has done since taking over for Jim O'Brien. He exceeded our expectations from the start. We contended much earlier than even optimist expected. He's been a stand up guy, a great rep for the city of indianapolis, he does all the right things. Unfortunatly, I think he is a victim of timing.

This isn't the time either. Other Pacer teams have seen those hump teams like the Bulls of the late 90's, the Pistons of the 2000's, and now the Heat of this decade.

He just so happens to be coaching the team at a time when the best basketball player in the world is the only thing standing in the way of the Pacers being champions.

I feel like Frank has maxed out the talent on this team, but the problem seems to be the Pacers max just isnt quite good enough at this time. I fear that if Frank stays the HC of this team, the Pacers will be to accustomed to his style that he won't be able to properly motivate them when the time comes that the Heat will be passing the torch. To be honest, im afraid this actually might have already happened & we have been witnessing it since the all-star break.

Also, Frank might be so loyal to his guys that it may prevent this team from making that next step chemistry wise. Some guys may end up staying when they need to moved. You see the picture im trying to paint.

Also, I question if Frank is hard enough on some of the players who are having "issues" right now. Again, I feel like his loyalty has something to do with this.

Look I know this series isn't over. I will be rooting for the Pacers to win, and no one to lose their jobs or be moved. However, I am a realist. The writing is there the ink simply hasn't dried.

Personally, if Frank was dismissed I would like to see Mark Jackson become the HC. I feel like a former NBA player like him might be the way to get through to a player like Lance. I feel like Mark would bring the hammer down on him, yet at the same time develop him into a better man/professional basketball player. Also, I think the Warriors were DUMB to fire him.

Many of my friends in my inner circle are with me. Out of about 10 people I'de say 8 are with me that maybe Frank needs to go.

Again, I want to here from some other Pacers fans. Sorry for making this so long, but I felt I needed to make this post. The Pacers are at a very strange fork in the road that #1 seeds rarely if have ever been in.

I think he should go. I find it a bloody rotten call, but I do think he should go. Without going into too much detail (midnight here, had 3 hours sleep after watching game last night) I feel Frank has failed in two key areas and excelled in another:

Excelled: Defense.

Failed: Offense, Bench-players.

Outside of those (key!) factors he has been good. But the complete collapse of this team after Bird made some changes has to be on Vogel as much as it is on Bird. They wrongly assumed chemistry was fine. Chemistry is never fine - you always need to protect it, Sir Alex Ferguson was brilliant at doing that.

Can Vogel learn? Yes and I'd much rather he stayed for the next ten years, but the issue is we have a unique group of guys at the moment and we don't have ten years. Are we prepared to gamble that we get lucky with a PG/Hibbert/Stephenson??? trio out of low draft picks and a David West agreeing to come here?

I think he needs to go. I think this year has had way to many ups an downs with the talent that the pacer have. What do u guys think would be a good replacement if they do decide to let frank go?


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^^That's the thing. Everyone else is locked up.

Frank Vogel is a top-10 coach in this league, maybe top-5. They should get somebody for offense as an assistant. Burke can lock down the D.

Fergie had longer to win a League title than you guys are giving Vogel. Look at other teams in our position from previous years who have fired their coaches trying get from CF to title. Continuity is another aspect interwoven with chemistry. It's so easy to point fingers at the coach for losing even when the players are clearly not performing up to par.

One thing I hate about Vogel's coaching is his stubbornness. He is not okay with changes. He stands firm in what he thinks is his system and believes that the players no matter how bad they are playing will eventually get into their game. It can be a good thing as the players got a coach that believes in them, but on the other hand, the team has to win and time usually works against them. We've seen good comebacks from our team this season and Vogel is always kind of banking on that possibility everytime. He's a young coach and will learn eventually, and though I am not totally fine with his system, the losses are not all his fault, and I can't blame him. This is still a young team, physically and emotionally as shown by Paul George and Hibbert. These guys will get tougher in time.

I dont think you fire Frank; It doesnt make any sense when the team has improved every year. I think Larry kind of screwed us this year with the mid season trade. Evan Turner was brought in to score and be a playmaker off the pine and he did it for 3 or 4 games; but after that he's been a scrub. Also I dont particularly think he made all the best moves in the draft and in free agency. Honestly Scola and Watson has been pretty good most of the time. But Mahinmi is making too much to be as lousy as he is; Turner was just a bad move in general chemistry wise and talent wise. With the offensive issues this team has they need guys who can get there own shot off the bench and that can put up points with consistency. Guys like Nate Robinson come to mind. They have Copeland and dont use him very much. Great Defense is not enough to rely on to win it all. I would advise Frank to hire an offensive guru as an assistant or the team should hire an advisor. Indy should hire Someone like Adelman; or Jerry Sloan to be an adviser to Frank.

I don't think the mid-season trade did anything bad. we had a very good record with Danny sitting and if Turner didn't play well he could have sat too. now the Scola trade is another matter. he played well in the early season but disappeared. at this point, I'd rather have Plumlee and a draft choice. even Green figured things out in Phoenix.

I have no problem with Vogel being ever the optimist in public. I believe you praise in public and criticize in private and I have no reason to feel he wasn't tough behind closed doors.

Popovich notwithstanding there is something to coaches being tuned out after a few years. I think Bird needs to sit down at the end of the season and ask Vogel what he think needs to be done. if like Isiah he doesn't see anything that was his fault, I'd show him the door. but if Bird and Vogel are agreed on how to approach next year, I'd stay the course.

Wizop wrote:I don't think the mid-season trade did anything bad. we had a very good record with Danny sitting and if Turner didn't play well he could have sat too. now the Scola trade is another matter. he played well in the early season but disappeared. at this point, I'd rather have Plumlee and a draft choice. even Green figured things out in Phoenix.

I have no problem with Vogel being ever the optimist in public. I believe you praise in public and criticize in private and I have no reason to feel he wasn't tough behind closed doors.

Popovich notwithstanding there is something to coaches being tuned out after a few years. I think Bird needs to sit down at the end of the season and ask Vogel what he think needs to be done. if like Isiah he doesn't see anything that was his fault, I'd show him the door. but if Bird and Vogel are agreed on how to approach next year, I'd stay the course.

I could certainly agree to that, but I'd want to know about that arrangement as a fan.

I think he can improve significantly on his rotations and be a little more tough against our players. Other than that, I believe in coach V. It's tough to beat the Heat (specially when they're in their prime and we are close to getting there) with their star power and experience. We bring out the best in them. If we can improve (smh again) our bench next year and get either a true PG or a guy off the bench that can score, we should continue to be a threat to the Heat and in the mix for title contenders.

ThePacer31 wrote:I think he can improve significantly on his rotations and be a little more tough against our players. Other than that, I believe in coach V. It's tough to beat the Heat (specially when they're in their prime and we are close to getting there) with their star power and experience. We bring out the best in them. If we can improve (smh again) our bench next year and get either a true PG or a guy off the bench that can score, we should continue to be a threat to the Heat and in the mix for title contenders.

I will edit my own post by saying: We should try to get a true PG next year and move G. HIll off the bench for scoring. I think he's naturally a score first PG and he'll thrive with the 2nd unit because the guy is humble. He will not complain, he just wants to win.

Agree 100% about the point guard upgrade; and the bench upgrades. Cant expect the starters to play 45 mins each and not have any offensive/defensive lapses. They get exhausted. I think Mahinmi needs to be replaced. His contract or cap room should be providing a better player. Maybe use the contract of E. Turner and G. Hill to get a better point guard. Hope that Scola will resign for the vet min. Hope that Solomon Hill becomes Draymond Green over the summer. Lavoy Allen should be in the rotation now; and def next season. He could provide a younger more active body off the bench. Hibbert; Stephenson; and George are going to have to take another step this off-season in improving their offensive games. I would look at hiring an offensive coordinator or maybe someone who can advise/teach Frank a few new offensive sets wrinkles to improve the production of this team.