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I think that if we get NOTHING in return for these 3, it will be an upgrade.

I disagree. Simply can't buy into the assumption that with the raw cap space provided by the loss of these two contracts the Pacers could attract equal talent.

Nah.

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I don't think we need to rush to judgment. Today isn't the day for clear thinking. That said

Hibbert needs to lose weight. bulking up was a mistake. compare Rik Smits who looked like a bust until Larry Brown showed up and had him lose 25 pounds. prior coaches had been trying to make him into a Ewing and that wasn't his game.

Vogel, if back, needs to be more flexible. he didn't play enough players during the regular season. okay, that might have cost us some games and home court advantage was our goal but when the power game wasn't working we didn't have other combinations that were used to playing together. I don't envy him trying to deal with Roy's fragile ego though. I'm not sure Roy could have seen small ball as anything but a vote of no confidence.

I think Lance's antics probably made it easier for us to keep him. I hope to sign him for a contract similar to Hill's.

Turner was a disappointment. at the right price though I just might bring him back if the coaches are committed to putting him in a role that maximizes what he can do and minimizes what he can not do.

I do not think that Granger had anything to do with any of this. if he wants to coach or work in the front office though, that could work.

I think PG needs to move back to two for at least half the game which means Lance has to get first unit minutes at point. I'm not sure the small forward of the future is on the roster unless it is Solo or Turner.

Wizop wrote:I don't think we need to rush to judgment. Today isn't the day for clear thinking. That said

Hibbert needs to lose weight. bulking up was a mistake. compare Rik Smits who looked like a bust until Larry Brown showed up and had him lose 25 pounds. prior coaches had been trying to make him into a Ewing and that wasn't his game.

Vogel, if back, needs to be more flexible. he didn't play enough players during the regular season. okay, that might have cost us some games and home court advantage was our goal but when the power game wasn't working we didn't have other combinations that were used to playing together. I don't envy him trying to deal with Roy's fragile ego though. I'm not sure Roy could have seen small ball as anything but a vote of no confidence.

I think Lance's antics probably made it easier for us to keep him. I hope to sign him for a contract similar to Hill's.

Turner was a disappointment. at the right price though I just might bring him back if the coaches are committed to putting him in a role that maximizes what he can do and minimizes what he can not do.

I do not think that Granger had anything to do with any of this. if he wants to coach or work in the front office though, that could work.

I think PG needs to move back to two for at least half the game which means Lance has to get first unit minutes at point. I'm not sure the small forward of the future is on the roster unless it is Solo or Turner.

I know I know

It was very frustrating watching Lance act like a child in front of an national audience. His antics fired up the entire Heat team. What I saw was that Lance played really well after he did these things. It got him going personally which was good. I don't have a problem with him doing this; however, the rest of the Pacers did not play to that level. His shenanigans helped them instead of distracting them.

What was coach doing during all of this? Did he think it was a good idea to mess with the best player in the league? This is the reason why we lost "fans" during the brawl. People don't want to see things like this. Play some ball and play tough. ahh, i'm tired. I need a week to think about our season and what we need to do next year to get to the Finals, let alone win it.

I think the biggest decision this summer is what to do with Stephenson. If he and Paul George are compatible, then he's a cornerstone and needs to be signed for whatever it will cost; if they aren't compatible then Lance needs to go. I really think the team's future hinges on this decision.

Build around PG and maybe Lance, and everyone else is probably expendable at the right price. Realistically, though, we're stuck with Hibbert. Who else is going to want to take on his contract?

I like Hill, but I think his true purpose in life is to be a combo guard off the bench, and the Pacers are paying him too much for that role. As a third guard he would be one of the league's best; as a starter he is only average.

I like Vogel too and think he is a good coach, but unlike great coaches, good coaches are expendable, and I think the time has come for this team to try someone else.

mizzoupacers wrote:I think the biggest decision this summer is what to do with Stephenson. If he and Paul George are compatible, then he's a cornerstone and needs to be signed for whatever it will cost; if they aren't compatible then Lance needs to go. I really think the team's future hinges on this decision.

Build around PG and maybe Lance, and everyone else is probably expendable at the right price. Realistically, though, we're stuck with Hibbert.

I like Hill, but I think his true purpose in life is to be a combo guard off the bench, and the Pacers are paying him too much for that role. As a third guard he would be one of the league's best; as a starter he is only average.

I like Vogel too and think he is a good coach, but unlike great coaches, good coaches are expendable, and I think the time has come for this team to try someone else.

AGREED 100%

1. IMO, we need a new coach. (offensive minded, because we can already play D)
2. I'm sure someone out there will want Hibbert. Hopefully Mavs can take him for M. Ellis or something. Just talking out of my butt.
3. Move G. Hill to the bench and GET A REAL POINT GUARD PLEASE. We cannot afford these turnovers again. Is cp3 or Kyrie I. interested?
4. Get a real POINT GUARD PLEASE. Please?
5. ET. Kick him in the you know where. I want to blame coach V for this but I can't. I remember when he was traded for Granger, most of us were on the positive side. I read MANY, MANY comments from the 76ers fans and they said they were happy to get rid of ET. I could not understand why. Now I know. I still want to believe he has talent and if we can maximize it, he'll be one heck of a player. Not sure how we can motivate someone that just doesn't give a F about the game. I don't see passion from him. I did not see an article that said "et is mad because he's not getting playing time" At least that shows that he wants to be out there. He just kept his mouth shut. Not sure if that's the type of attitude I want in the locker room.
6. Bench. Take 3, Bird, take 3.

Wizop wrote:I don't think we need to rush to judgment. Today isn't the day for clear thinking. That said

Hibbert needs to lose weight. bulking up was a mistake. compare Rik Smits who looked like a bust until Larry Brown showed up and had him lose 25 pounds. prior coaches had been trying to make him into a Ewing and that wasn't his game.

Vogel, if back, needs to be more flexible. he didn't play enough players during the regular season. okay, that might have cost us some games and home court advantage was our goal but when the power game wasn't working we didn't have other combinations that were used to playing together. I don't envy him trying to deal with Roy's fragile ego though. I'm not sure Roy could have seen small ball as anything but a vote of no confidence.

I think Lance's antics probably made it easier for us to keep him. I hope to sign him for a contract similar to Hill's.

Turner was a disappointment. at the right price though I just might bring him back if the coaches are committed to putting him in a role that maximizes what he can do and minimizes what he can not do.

I do not think that Granger had anything to do with any of this. if he wants to coach or work in the front office though, that could work.

I think PG needs to move back to two for at least half the game which means Lance has to get first unit minutes at point. I'm not sure the small forward of the future is on the roster unless it is Solo or Turner.

I agree 100% with this logic. I dont think you let go of Hibbert. He needs to get back in the gym and come back a better player next season. There's still a shortage of 7"2 guys that can block and alter most shots that are in there vicinity in the league. The only position that needs an adjustment in the starting lineup is the point guard. The turnovers and bad decision making hurt the team seemingly only against the Heat; but in all Honesty Hill just isnt a good facilitator. On another note; I wouldve rather seen the team keep Granger than trade for Evan Turner. Granger in the Warriors and Thunder series played some pretty good defense and made some threes; He guarded Durant pretty well for some stretches in the Clippers series. I also think that Mahinmi making 4 or how much does he make? Whatever it is; its too much for a guy that gets posterized and cant catch a pass that hits his hands. They need to find a way to move him. The guys have to come back better and hungry becuase they shouldnt have gone 7 games with the Hawks. I will say one bright side is that they have Lavoy Allen who is young and a pretty solid player going into next season. Or At least he looked it at times in Philly. The bench needs an overhaul again becuase there isnt anybody on it that can get there own shot or is a great defender; although I would consider keeping Watson. the starters playing 44 of 48 mins a night is part of the reason we cant get over the Heat. Miami gets good mins from there bench guys. Ray Allen; Birdman; Cole; Haslem or R Lewis; all had impacts on the games. Spoelstra's using a 9 man rotation. Hard to beat a team when their stars get good rest time; All While Paul is chasing around Ray Allen and other bench warmers.

I think it is a bad idea to blow this crew up, seriously, this is the core that got us to the ECF twice in a row where it got knocked out by the super-trio that is the Miami Heat, who happen to have one of the greatest of all time on board.

The starting five have plenty of potential to develop. Should Lance be snatched (I don't think we should pay more than 8/9 per) than push CJ Watson to the 1 and have George Hill play the 2 or fit in Evan Turner on the 2. There is plenty of skill and potential in this team, there really is.

The one thing that has to change is the coaching. I know I am critical of Vogel and have been for quite some time, in my opinion he should go, but only if a better alternative is available. Someone mentioned Mark Jackson at some stage.... that might work but I am not convinced. However, with Vogel our offence is way too inconsistent and our bench is not playing well enough (I think the second is the result of the first by the way - grow a proper offensive system and the bench will start functioning better).

I have been defending Hibbert on this board and the general board and I will continue to do so. Yes his contract is increasingly looking like a bad deal, but people dismiss how valuable he was in the first half of this season, he has indeed got mental weaknesses and I would like to see a professional sports psychologist to sort that out (I don't know how advanced the States are when it comes to this sort of thing, it is increasingly common in top football/soccer here in Europe.) he is still only 27 and has a further 2/3 top years in that big body of his and I want them to be with us. Based on the past few months the whole team could do with a proper sports psychologist though!

PG24 and (hopefully) Lance will continue to grow. With a bit of luck we can get another good year out of West and find a good replacement for the sort of money he is on. I would try and keep the bench as in tact as possible. People are putting these guys down A LOT, but I don't buy the fact that they are all of a sudden terrible players, they are not. It is the one thing that the coaching has to fix, and as I said before, that starts with an offensive identity.

George Hill is an enigma, he should have developed and hasn't. He isn't vocal enough for me: I like my Point Guards to have the biggest voice on the team, that is the one thing where he really falls short, he hides at times and he feels the need to defer to the big guns. Again, something that a good sports-psychologist can sort out.

If we can somehow make a play for an experienced point guard that has some miles left and is a known distributor than I would be tempted and he is the only piece I think we might see move (provided we resign Lance).

Could our team be reignited by getting Rondo on board?

We need to keep Lance and there's no way we can move Hibbert/Hill because we wouldn't get anything back that's even decent.

I think the biggest move we need to make is hiring someone competent to run the offense. McMillan clearly did nothing for us and was a massive downgrade from Shaw. I don't know who we could get, but it shouldn't be that hard to find an upgrade.

Then we just trade Scola for whatever we can get or just waive him and give his spot to Cope. We could use his floor stretching and at least he gives effort. Hopefully Solomon Hill can play some minutes and give us a young guy off the bench. We should also do what we can to get another 2nd rounder this year. There's a ton of talent and we could use a young guy to develop at pretty much all positions.

I am all the way off the Hibbert bandwagon. I think he is just not athletic enough or offensively talented enough to be the starting center this team needs. Sure, he can protect the rim if his teammates can do enough to compensate for his lack of mobility. But he brings more liabilities than assets, and the Pacers are paying $15 million a year for it.

And surely we have seen the last of Evan Turner in a Pacers uniform.

Just read that pacer intend to bring back Vogel


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Just read that pacer intend to bring back Vogel


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Report that Hibbert is open to being traded. I wonder how accurate it is. Seems the media will make up stories these days.

My take...

I'm still excited for next year, because we all know Larry's competitiveness, no way he settles for this. I also completely disagree with the notion that the team needs to be blown up. You just can't give up, especially for a small-market team that has come so close. Teams like the 90s/early 00s Jazz, the 00s Magic, the 00s Pacers, and current Thunder show that you can't just throw in the towel.

As up-and-down as Hibbert was, he's shown the ability to bounce back at various points throughout the year. Even if I did think he should be traded (which I don't), good luck finding the value you want back with that contract coming off the post-season he just had. Hibb will never be a 20/10 scorer but if he can continue to disrupt opponents' offense, that accounts for a TON.

Same for Hill, I think he'll be better served as a starting shooting guard for us, but again, his contract makes it tough. I think Hill can be a part-time point guard, just not solely. Which leads me to Lance...I love his game, love his energy, love his passion, but if he's really that much of a headcase, I'm hesitant on paying $10 million a year. Granted, he might not be as bad in a non-contract year, but still. If he was a big reason for the team splintering towards the end of the season, it's tough to validate a long-term contract, especially when people ranging from teammates (George, West, Hibbert) and his bosses (Vogel and Bird) didn't exactly condone his behavior yet he did it anyway.

So, with that being said, I won't be too bent out of shape to see Lance let go next year if it's deemed best by teammates and management. However, my honest first choice - I'd like to have the team talk to UFA Kyle Lowry. Then, he and Hill can be the starting back court, and Lowry is rumored to command in the $10million range, which is the number I'm seeing for Lance also. Lowry can take over games, set up an offense, and be a solid wing defender with his speed. Then, I'd love to see them go after a spot-shooter like an Anthony Morrow or Jodie Meeks for the bench. Keep around that other steady veteran alongside West like a Rasual Butler, Dahntay Jones, or even Granger if he'd be willing to mend fences. See if a stretch four is out there that can be brought in on the cheap, especially if the team decides to part ways with Scola, to hang with the Millsap's, Bosh's, and Ibaka's of the league. And finally, yes, bring back Orlando Johnson, who was apparently incredibly popular in the locker room. (When Granger was traded, you heard a surprising lot from players who were bent out of shape about OJ as much as Danny.)

Also, Chris Kaman will be out there and Bird has liked him before!

The only guy who was part of the rotation who I would be least upset about parting ways with is Mahinmi. Love the guy but his defense is average and offense is barely there. Wouldn't be upset if he stuck around though.

My roster...

5: Roy Hibbert...Ian Mahinmi...a 3rd big such as maybe Nazr Mohammed??? (We know he's not scared of LeBron!)
4: David West...Luis Scola/a stretch 4 like a Patrick Patterson (RFA) or Boris Diaw...Chris Copeland
3: Paul George...veteran wing like Dahntay Jones/Rasual Butler/Danny Granger...Solomon Hill
2: George Hill...Jodie Meeks/Anthony Morrow/Lester Hudson (since he's been rumored)...Orlando Johnson
1: Kyle Lowry...C.J. Watson...Donald Sloan

As for coach, I'm ok with Vogel coming back. But what's concerning is that this makes three straight defeats to the same opponent in more or less the same fashion. He's a fine coach, but you have to wonder if the players began to tune him out. If that's the case, you'd have to make a change. The one coach that I'd be 100% ok with is Lionel Hollins...maybe Mark Jackson.

All in all, this was a team that for the last 3 months became wildly inconsistent, had some chemistry issues, adjusted to a shocking deadline trade, had confidence issues (Hibbert) and began splintering due to some antics (Lance). All of that, and they still pushed Miami to 6 games in the ECF. Call me naively optimistic, but that's promising.

Denver fan here. Would you guys take McGee + either Foye or Hickson for Hibbert?

I like McGee's game, but if Bird is turned off by Lance Stephenson's actions to the point of possibly not re-signing him, I doubt he'd be willing to give up a key starter for JaVale.

McGee may do some dumb things on court (basically he tries to do things a 7 footer shouldn't be doing) but he doesn't have character issues or pull any stupid antics. He just needs a little time under a good coach.

Agree on mcgee he has some incredibly stupid plays but he actually has a very low TO % for a center. With a good perimeter defense and a good assistant coach who can develop players ( like shaw was ) McGee could be a good return for hibbert

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