Pacers front office ie Bird-Walsh

[celtspacers]

Anyone really believe they know what they are doing. I don't. All the mistakes they have made over the years have hurt this team. Bad trades. Bad draft picks.

[Wizop]

name three. sure they made some trades to get bad attitudes out of town after the brawl where the object was to sell tickets to a fan base that had come to hate the image rather than to obtain talent but I'll take our record over the last 20 years and match it with about anyone's. no rings sure but no disasters either. we're almost never in the lottery. we've had winning home records for what is it 26 years and counting.

[celtspacers]

Here is Three for you. Scott Haskins. George McCloud. Fred Jones. If you want me to keep going i can. Anyone can have a winning record in the east.

[Scoot McGroot]

Here is Three for you. Scott Haskins. George McCloud. Fred Jones. If you want me to keep going i can. Anyone can have a winning record in the east.

Uh, Bird was a player in Boston during most of those. He's the GM here in Indy now. Glad you associate them together, though.

[Wizop]

Here is Three for you. Scott Haskins. George McCloud. Fred Jones. If you want me to keep going i can. Anyone can have a winning record in the east.

Scout Haskins was injured. I never liked the Fred Jones pick (I wanted Taysun Prince that year who went much lower) but I'm pretty sure Isiah Thomas who was coach at the time talked the GM into it. didn't Barkley rave about the pick on draft night? Fred's problem was that everything went to the right for him. he couldn't drive or even pass to the left ... and he was here in the terrible years where JO had the locker room fractured and players in his clique didn't want to give the ball to any of the players who weren't in the in crowd.

McCloud never worked out as a point guard but did have some better years later as I remember but as Bill Polian says with respect to football and I think it applies to basketball too, if you can bat 560 in the draft, you're doing well.

several years ago my wife and I had the pleasure of a pregame dinner with Walsh. I told him that I thought the trade that cost the Leonard's control of the front office was sending Alex English to Denver to get McGinnis back. Walsh countered that he was the Denver GM at the time and created the deal from the other side. Walsh was also the GM who traded Mark Jackson for Jalen Rose and then traded back for Mark a few months later. pretty good deal for a half season rental.

now there was a bad period where Walsh and Bird both deferred to each other too much and fly balls dropped between them. that's not the situation now.

[celtspacers]

Pacers will never win a championship as long as Bird or Walsh are making the decisions. This is the year the Pacers could get a special player out of the draft. Dont be shocked when they trade down and get another Scrub with good players still there at eleven. or select another bust in Frank the tank.

[Scoot McGroot]

Pacers will never win a championship as long as Bird or Walsh are making the decisions. This is the year the Pacers could get a special player out of the draft. Dont be shocked when they trade down and get another Scrub with good players still there at eleven. or select another bust in Frank the tank.

The only reason we've ever been close to competing at all is due to Walsh or Bird, so it's really hard to say that they're also the reason that we'll never win.

Sometimes, the truth lies somewhere in between. I don't adore all of Bird/Walsh moves. However, I respect that they've done a much better job than most franchises. With the financial restrictions placed upon them as a small market team, they've put in what is widely viewed around the league as one of the best jobs as a front office over the past 20 years. Seriously. Outside of Indy, Bird/Walsh and their combined era under the Simons ownership is viewed as just below the Spurs and whatnot.

Did you also view Hibbert as a bust? Or Granger as a bust? Heck, even Hansbrough and Fred Jones had much better careers than the average player taken at their draft positions. While you may demand grand slams at every pick, the truth shows that Bird/Walsh are in the top tier of getting value and production out of their draft picks.

[celtspacers]

Yes i think Hibbert is a bust. From what i am reading you believe he is worth 15 million a year. Bird and Walsh both are lucky to have fans like you.

[Wizop]

Hibbert was worth 15mm a year at the time he signed that contract. he had a great year or two after that and then started sliding basically because he was too introspective. whether his next contract will be as fat as his last one, probably depends upon how well he plays this year.

too call him a bad draft pick though requires finding players picked later in that draft who have been better than he has been and you won't find many.

[Scoot McGroot]

Yes i think Hibbert is a bust. From what i am reading you believe he is worth 15 million a year. Bird and Walsh both are lucky to have fans like you.

Then you're crazy. If you read the forums, I'm likely the poster most interested in dealing Hibbert right now. However, to call him a bust? As the 17th pick? A two time All-Star and one of the best rim defenders in the league over the past 10 years? He may be disappointing in that he didn't turn into a superstar, but a bust? That's just wildly incorrect. A bust? Look at the rest of that draft, all ahead of him. Michael Beasley, OJ Mayo, Joe Alexander, DJ Augustin, all in the top 10. Bayless, Rush, Jason Thompson, and Anthony Randolph all went in the lottery that year. All busts, compared to where they were taken. Hibbert? He's a home run value for the 17th pick, in any draft.

And is he worth $15m a year? Unfortunately, yes. What he provides are rare talents in the NBA nowadays, and are overpaid. He's one of the best at that (rim protection). For $15m, would I hope for more? Yes. However, was that his market rate and fair pay when he got it? Absolutely. We weren't the only team willing to pay him that money. That's how restricted free agency works.


Again, truth in action is best. Is he a super duper star? Hell no. Is he paid commensurate with his market value, when factoring in his skill set, size, and timing of free agency? Absolutely. Would I move him, personally? In a second, and I think Bird would to. Would I make a bad move to move him? Absolutely not, nor would Bird. How's that?

[celtspacers]

Birds lucky he's in Indy.

[Scoot McGroot]

Birds lucky he's in Indy.

Why's that?

[EuroPacer]

Are you a professional troll, or did you just finish the Reddit course?

[boomershadow]

Bird's drafting has been better than his trading imo. But overall would you prefer Sam Hinkie, Pete D'Alessandro, or Billy King?

[King_Supreme]

Bird is a solid GM, the problem is that Indy can't draw FA's and need to hit a grand slam on their picks and trades.
Also Pacers should have tanked this year, not tanking will hurt Indy in the longterm(that was their only shot to get high upside talent to play with Paul George, since they lack assets), and will cement that PG will leave Indy either via trade or FA.

[pacers33granger]

The front office has been good for quite awhile. There were some misses, but there's always bound to be. No need to go too far back, but here's their major transactions.

Draft
Solomon Hill - drafted 23rd and looks to be a solid rotation wing, great value at that pick.
Miles Plumlee - good value at 26, but we traded him
Paul George - incredible value at 10
Lance Stephenson - incredible value at 40
Tyler Hansbrough - bad pick in the lotto
Brandon Rush - bust, end of the lotto pick though and part of a 2 for 1 pick trade
Roy Hibbert - excellent value at 17, second part of that trade
Shawne Williams - bust, but picked at 17 so what can you expect
Danny Granger - excellent value at 17

So for the draft in the past decade you've got two bad picks (Williams, Hansbrough) and another miss that didn't hurt us because we moved down (traded Bayless) for Rush but got Hibbert too.

Free Agency - excluding 10 day guys and end of the bench guys
Rodney Stuckey - vet min, excellent signing
CJ Miles - below market value for his production, great signing
Damjan Rudez - showed some promise as a bench stretch 4, signed for about 1 mil for a couple years, good signing
Andrew Bynum - didn't work out
Chris Copeland - also didn't work out, but didn't hurt us, neutral signing imo
David West - excellent signing
CJ Watson - good signing for the price, too bad he had nagging injuries the past 2 years
DJ Augustin - mediocre signing, for one year, didn't work out but didn't hurt
Roy Hibbert - matched Portland's offer, couldn't let him go and that was the market
George Hill - good value on his post-rookie deal
Gerald Green - bad signing, didn't fit

So a couple of bad signings (Bynum, Green) and a few that were neutral (Copeland, Augustin), but the FO has done fairly well signing guys for a small market team and has rarely overpaid.

Trades
Evan Turner, Lavoy Allen - horrible trade
Luis Scola trade - bad trade
George Hill trade - good value, but hurt in the end
Ian Mahinmi trade - got rid of Collison and got a great backup center on a fair deal
Leandro Barbosa - meh trade, but did help us slightly
Darren Collison - we sent out Murphy for him; Collison sucked for us, but hard to hate the deal still

This is where the FO isn't that great, but they seem to know that and don't make many big deals. And some of the deals had a shot at working out very well, but just didn't. Good FOs make bad moves, it just happens. Everyone thought the Lakers got a sweetheart deal by getting Nash, but it ended up being one of the worst moves in franchise history.

If you look at the last three big trades made, they are easily defendable at the time.

While I hated the Granger trade from the start, Granger was giving us almost nothing and Turner was putting up decent numbers in Philly. Turner also gave us insurance against Lance leaving (funny that we got the best player for us in Miles though and let both walk) and another ballhandler. And we saved a good chunk of money.

The Scola trade was made with pushing for a title in mind. We needed a backup PF and Green was a bad contract for us. Plumlee was buried and gave us nothing. Adding the first hurt, but it was guaranteed to be late.

And the Hill trade was great value. A starting PG for the 15th pick is a good trade. It just turned out that the guy picked there became a star.

[Scoot McGroot]

Bird is a solid GM, the problem is that Indy can't draw FA's and need to hit a grand slam on their picks and trades.
Also Pacers should have tanked this year, not tanking will hurt Indy in the longterm(that was their only shot to get high upside talent to play with Paul George, since they lack assets), and will cement that PG will leave Indy either via trade or FA.

How much tanking did we need? We could have lost 20 more games and still ended up only 4th or 5th in the draft. We're 11th. We had George Hill and David West miss almost the entire first month or two of the season. Even then, we would have had to deal them for nothing in return; nobody that would help us win this year. And Ian Mahinmi and Roy Hibbert. Oh, and Ronald Stuckey and CJ Miles. Probably Watson and Scola as well. Oh, and fired Vogel/Bird, as they wouldn't have been able to not coach/GM to win.

We had a team of almost all veterans: all win-now pieces. In order to truly tank to the levels we would have needed to, we would have had to deal EVERYBODY. Maybe keep Solo Hill and Damo Rudez? That's a TON of deals. We shopped David West. We shopped Roy Hibbert. We listened to deals for George Hill. They were awful offers, though. We tried to deal expirings for Lance in order to get an unprotected 1st back, but it didn't work. Tanking, with an eye to winning within 5 years is REALLY hard to do. Philly did it, but they aren't looking to win for 5 years after they started. I'm not sure what more we could do? We didn't go out and use the DPE for someone to help us win now. We didn't go out and trade our pick for someone that would have helped cover while PG13 was out. We shopped, and when the offers were bad, we rested guys, and just kept playing.

Ultimately, we traded the #5 pick for #11, George Hill, David West, CJ Miles, Roy Hibbert, Ian Mahinmi, and the Bird rights to Luis Scola.

[Scoot McGroot]

Brandon Rush - bust, end of the lotto pick though and part of a 2 for 1 pick trade
Roy Hibbert - excellent value at 17, second part of that trade


So for the draft in the past decade you've got two bad picks (Williams, Hansbrough) and another miss that didn't hurt us because we moved down (traded Bayless) for Rush but got Hibbert too.
.

We dealt Jerryd Bayless for Rush/McRoberts. We got Hibbert along with TJ Ford and Rasho Nesterovic for JO and Nathan Jawai.

[Scoot McGroot]

While I hated the Granger trade from the start, Granger was giving us almost nothing and Turner was putting up decent numbers in Philly. Turner also gave us insurance against Lance leaving (funny that we got the best player for us in Miles though and let both walk) and another ballhandler. And we saved a good chunk of money.

Weird to think that Lavoy Allen was the only keeper in that deal, for either team.

[pacers33granger]

Brandon Rush - bust, end of the lotto pick though and part of a 2 for 1 pick trade
Roy Hibbert - excellent value at 17, second part of that trade


So for the draft in the past decade you've got two bad picks (Williams, Hansbrough) and another miss that didn't hurt us because we moved down (traded Bayless) for Rush but got Hibbert too.
.

We dealt Jerryd Bayless for Rush/McRoberts. We got Hibbert along with TJ Ford and Rasho Nesterovic for JO and Nathan Jawai.

You're right, total miss on my part there. Was going through the transaction history on RealGM quickly and spaced on that.

So we can add the JO trade as a win (got two rotation players and a pick) and the Rush/Bayless trade was a wash as far as the pick, but we got Jack in that deal too, so a slight win.