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[tweet]https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/620639209087373312[/tweet]

Looks like we truly value Joe Young as if he were a late 1st round pick. Not sure of any level of guarantees/non-guarantees, but happy to see us take a long-term shot at a prospect like this.

Little CBA lesson, in order to sign Joe Young longer than 1 year, we had to use something other than a minimum salary (which is probably why it appears we will keep signing Shayne one year at a time). We have cap space, so we'll probably use a sliver of that for this deal.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/238738/Joe-Young-Pacers-Agree-Upon-Four-Year-$4M-Plus-Deal

Says first 2 years are guaranteed.

He was very impressive in the summer league. Had some really decent shooting percentages too. Hope he turns out to be the steal of the 2nd round.

Moooose wrote:http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/238738/Joe-Young-Pacers-Agree-Upon-Four-Year-$4M-Plus-Deal

Says first 2 years are guaranteed.

He was very impressive in the summer league. Had some really decent shooting percentages too. Hope he turns out to be the steal of the 2nd round.

Good find. So it really is just like a 1st round draft pick contract.

Good Move. Hopefully he stays hungry and really develops. I expect for him to become a Jamal Crawford type of player.

Or a Monta Ellis type

I'm assuming years 3 & 4 are team options. If so this give us more control over him than 2nd rounders usually have. I like it.

This was a great signing. Congratulations to Pacers for finding a good player with tons of potential!

What a great move. Joe's going to be good.

Boneman2 wrote:I'm assuming years 3 & 4 are team options. If so this give us more control over him than 2nd rounders usually have. I like it.

Team options are the worst. Hopefully, they're non-guaranteed years, so that there's no issues if trades come up, as we had with "player options" or "team options" before the draft. Semantics.


Also, Myles Turner signed his deal today. No biggie, but because he did, it does lower our "potential cap space" by $350k. We do have 13 players under contract, so it appears as if Bird is not worried about spending the potential $3m or so in cap space we could have had by holding off on signing Turner/Lavoy. We sstill would have the room exception left afterwards.

Scoot McGroot wrote:

Boneman2 wrote:I'm assuming years 3 & 4 are team options. If so this give us more control over him than 2nd rounders usually have. I like it.

Team options are the worst. Hopefully, they're non-guaranteed years, so that there's no issues if trades come up, as we had with "player options" or "team options" before the draft. Semantics.


Also, Myles Turner signed his deal today. No biggie, but because he did, it does lower our "potential cap space" by $350k. We do have 13 players under contract, so it appears as if Bird is not worried about spending the potential $3m or so in cap space we could have had by holding off on signing Turner/Lavoy. We sstill would have the room exception left afterwards.

What's wrong with team options?

Scoot McGroot wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/620639209087373312[/tweet]

Looks like we truly value Joe Young as if he were a late 1st round pick. Not sure of any level of guarantees/non-guarantees, but happy to see us take a long-term shot at a prospect like this.

Little CBA lesson, in order to sign Joe Young longer than 1 year, we had to use something other than a minimum salary (which is probably why it appears we will keep signing Shayne one year at a time). We have cap space, so we'll probably use a sliver of that for this deal.

I think there are gonna be a lot of teams wishing they'd looked at Joe Young a little closer before the draft. I saw him in 2 of the summer league games and that guy can shoot the lights out.

pacers33 wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:

Boneman2 wrote:I'm assuming years 3 & 4 are team options. If so this give us more control over him than 2nd rounders usually have. I like it.

Team options are the worst. Hopefully, they're non-guaranteed years, so that there's no issues if trades come up, as we had with "player options" or "team options" before the draft. Semantics.


Also, Myles Turner signed his deal today. No biggie, but because he did, it does lower our "potential cap space" by $350k. We do have 13 players under contract, so it appears as if Bird is not worried about spending the potential $3m or so in cap space we could have had by holding off on signing Turner/Lavoy. We sstill would have the room exception left afterwards.

What's wrong with team options?

Merely the mechanics of how they operate limit you greatly in terms of trades, and even extensions/renegotiations (though that would unlikely be an issue here with Young's salary so low). You cannot trade a player if there's an option. You can, however, trade a player if his salary is non-guaranteed. It's a more useful tool for a team as it adds flexibility for trades. In fact, there are immensely few true "team options" anymore that are not attached to a 1st round pick rookie scale contract. Most players have non-guaranteeds. In fact, I think the only true team option handed out last year was on Damjan Rudez. Non-guaranteed salary or years have essentially replaced team options due to the flexibility and ease of use they offer the teams.

pacers33 wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:

Boneman2 wrote:I'm assuming years 3 & 4 are team options. If so this give us more control over him than 2nd rounders usually have. I like it.

Team options are the worst. Hopefully, they're non-guaranteed years, so that there's no issues if trades come up, as we had with "player options" or "team options" before the draft. Semantics.


Also, Myles Turner signed his deal today. No biggie, but because he did, it does lower our "potential cap space" by $350k. We do have 13 players under contract, so it appears as if Bird is not worried about spending the potential $3m or so in cap space we could have had by holding off on signing Turner/Lavoy. We sstill would have the room exception left afterwards.

What's wrong with team options?

Usually they have to be exercised by June 30. A player with a team option that has not been exercised can't be traded until the option is picked up. With a non guaranteed year say in the final year you can trade the guy up to the guarantee date. Example is Brendan Haywood with the Cavs his deal becomes guaranteed if not released by Aug 1st, so the Cavs can trade him to whoever for a player then that team can just release him. If was a player option he'd have to be picked up first and that would have been June 30 most likely.

Assuming he turns into a quality rotation player, that's not a lot of money at all, especially long term.

Frank Dux wrote:Assuming he turns into a quality rotation player, that's not a lot of money at all, especially long term.

Yup. Not much above the minimum salary.

Team options are a hundred times better than player options. What if Joe blows up in year 2 sitting on a player option versus team option? I do get what Scoot is saying about the certain technicalities for trading purposes but hopefully Joe is much longer term than that.

I predict at some point in year two Bird will guarantee the whole thing.

Well, hopefully this guy will be able to make a career of it. But personally, I never get excited about 2nd round picks. Every single fanbase overrates their own 2nd rounder, ours included. Everyone feels like maybe they got the diamond in the rough. Remember Orlando Johnson? We wasted a lot of words on that guy.

I mean, our best 2nd rounder in recent memory was Lance Stephenson, and don't forget that for the first two seasons, he only played garbage minutes.

If Young manages to crack the rotation this year for anything outside of garbage time, I'll be thrilled. But I won't go in expecting anything.

Boneman2 wrote:Team options are a hundred times better than player options. What if Joe blows up in year 2 sitting on a player option versus team option? I do get what Scoot is saying about the certain technicalities for trading purposes but hopefully Joe is much longer term than that.

I predict at some point in year two Bird will guarantee the whole thing.

And non-guaranteed salary years are a hundred times better than team options. Either way, even if Young had a player option, he'd be a restricted free agent where we could match offers. Theoretically. Team options are just disappearing, essentially because the non-guaranteed years are being seen as so much easier to work with.

If there are individual team options on both the last years, Bird cannot legally guarantee the whole thing in year two. Per standard contracts (and I don't know that Bird has done a single contract that wasn't per the "standard players contract"), there are windows each offseason to exercise options for the upcoming year only. So, after year 2, he can keep year 3. After year 3, he can keep year 4. Etc.

jowglenn wrote:Well, hopefully this guy will be able to make a career of it. But personally, I never get excited about 2nd round picks. Every single fanbase overrates their own 2nd rounder, ours included. Everyone feels like maybe they got the diamond in the rough. Remember Orlando Johnson? We wasted a lot of words on that guy.

I mean, our best 2nd rounder in recent memory was Lance Stephenson, and don't forget that for the first two seasons, he only played garbage minutes.

If Young manages to crack the rotation this year for anything outside of garbage time, I'll be thrilled. But I won't go in expecting anything.

Yup. Wait and see mode. Although, to be fair, we've either sold off or traded off our 2nd round picks on draft night every year since Lance was picked.

But yeah, the James "Flight" White experience is pretty much the textbook definition of "overconfident fan base". We all were sold!