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A few reports popping up about a lack of contract with Vogel now that the season is officially over. I know people were frustrated about his rotations after game 5, which is fair, but I want him back.

There are no clear upgrades available with Thibs, Walton and Brooks off the market and Larry isn't going to give the JVG's of the world front office power they want,

Considering the roster turnover without mainstays like Hibb and West, PG's first full season back, and the fact that the bigs starting rotation consisted of a career backup (Ian), a guy who I like but barely cracks the rotations in most cases (Lavoy), a career journeyman (J-Hill), and a rookie (Myles), all in a team many considered to finish out of the playoffs, he did an awesome job and almost took out the 2nd seed



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Agreed, he should be back.

Rotations in game 5 didn't bother me at all.
Bench production is the problem and gave Frank few options to rotate and gassed out our starters.

To think our only good bench player of the series will likely be gone

Agreed. Rotations were what they were in game 5. But coaching didn't cause Miles/Stuck to combine to go 3/20 or whatever. If they play better, Vogel is applauded for trusting that unit and not subbing out the hot hand for Paul. Hindsight is 20/20


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I feel as though a change could be good. Vogel just seems so stubborn with changing the teams identity to play at a faster pace. Everyone could see that this team excelled in getting transition buckets...and that is how Larry built it. Yet Frank was adamant about always having 2 bigs. Starting Lavoy Allen in the playoffs was a total head scratcher. Its like Frank cant get away from the smashmouth defense mentality.

Kevin Mchale is a guy that would be great to bring in and groom Turner. Ettore Messina could also do well here. Kevin Ollie seems destined for the NBA eventually and i wouldnt mind the Pacers being his first gig.

If i were Herbie, I'd think long and hard about telling Bird that if he thinks the players have tuned Frank out, then Larry should return to the bench.

chube wrote:Agreed. Rotations were what they were in game 5. But coaching didn't cause Miles/Stuck to combine to go 3/20 or whatever. If they play better, Vogel is applauded for trusting that unit and not subbing out the hot hand for Paul. Hindsight is 20/20


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But Franks rotations arent helping those guys maximize their strengths. Miles always played better with the starters as it was easier for him to get open looks...yet as the season went on we'd play him in lineups where he was the only 3 point threat. That made it easy on the defense when he was the only person youd need to worry about on the perimeter.

Stuckey and Montas skills dont mesh with Franks penchant for putting two lane clogging bigs on the court. I agree with your point that Stuckey/Miles struggled with their shots...but Frank also struggled with maximizing this teams potential all season.

ThirtyOne wrote:

chube wrote:Agreed. Rotations were what they were in game 5. But coaching didn't cause Miles/Stuck to combine to go 3/20 or whatever. If they play better, Vogel is applauded for trusting that unit and not subbing out the hot hand for Paul. Hindsight is 20/20


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But Franks rotations arent helping those guys maximize their strengths. Miles always played better with the starters as it was easier for him to get open looks...yet as the season went on we'd play him in lineups where he was the only 3 point threat. That made it easy on the defense when he was the only person youd need to worry about on the perimeter.

Stuckey and Montas skills dont mesh with Franks penchant for putting two lane clogging bigs on the court. I agree with your point that Stuckey/Miles struggled with their shots...but Frank also struggled with maximizing this teams potential all season.

They both talked specifically about that mid-season. CJ could only play with the starters if he or Paul George were at the 4. CJ was playing the 4, and doing well, but his body was getting punished hard for it (which led to his ankle issues and missing a couple weeks mid-season). Essentially, they both knew that CJ was better production wise at the 4, and with that lineup, but that he couldn't do it for more than a game or two anymore physically, as he was playing from behind (physically, that is) the rest of the season because of it.

chube wrote:There are no clear upgrades available with Thibs, Walton and Brooks off the market and Larry isn't going to give the JVG's of the world front office power they want,

Walton and Brooks would be considered as a clear upgrades and Blatt wouldn't ? doesn't make sense to me.

Pistol King wrote:

chube wrote:There are no clear upgrades available with Thibs, Walton and Brooks off the market and Larry isn't going to give the JVG's of the world front office power they want,

Walton and Brooks would be considered as a clear upgrades and Blatt wouldn't ? doesn't make sense to me.

I think so. We've seen what Brooks can do in guiding a small-market team deep into the post-season multiple times and has a strong track record of player development. Walton we know is a solid coach, even with a small sample size, I don't care who is on your team and who you're covering for, 39-4 is incredible. Blatt, to me, is still a bit of a mystery - successful coach who was brought to Cleveland to build a young roster but was immediately thrust into win-now mode when Lebron signed. Despite that Finals run, nobody seemed really sure of how much was Blatt's sets, how much was Tyronn Lue, and how much of it was Lebron undermining him and the inmates running the asylum. Don't forget - Byron Scott once coached a team to the finals too.


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chube wrote:I think so. We've seen what Brooks can do in guiding a small-market team deep into the post-season multiple times and has a strong track record of player development. Walton we know is a solid coach, even with a small sample size, I don't care who is on your team and who you're covering for, 39-4 is incredible. Blatt, to me, is still a bit of a mystery - successful coach who was brought to Cleveland to build a young roster but was immediately thrust into win-now mode when Lebron signed. Despite that Finals run, nobody seemed really sure of how much was Blatt's sets, how much was Tyronn Lue, and how much of it was Lebron undermining him and the inmates running the asylum. Don't forget - Byron Scott once coached a team to the finals too.

I may just be cynical but it seems like to me that they had strong superstar factors; Brooks (KD and Russ), Blatt (LBJ and Kyrie) and Walton (Curry, Klay, Dray) all had otherworldly rosters. That can certainly lead to coaches being overvalued.

I find this insane that Bird is seriously contemplating Vogel's future. Seems that Bird may be upset with Vogel not playing along with forcing PG to the 4, and may end up looking for a guy that plays a bit more to Bird's vision?

"Frank's a great guy. He's going to be fine no matter what happens. If he's back, he'll be fine here. If he's not, he's not. We'll see."

Bird gave no timeline for a decision on Vogel's fate and said he needs to first speak with Pacers owner Herb Simon.

"What I don't want to do is leave Frank hanging. There's other jobs out there he could get," Bird told the Star.

Bird cited the Pacers' 89-84 Game 7 loss to the Toronto Raptors as he discussed Indiana's need for more offense.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15449200/indiana-pacers-president-larry-bird-says-coach-frank-vogel-future-uncertain

Granted, we are about 24 hours removed from a heartbreaking game 7, but I'm surprised that this looks as possible (not necessarily likely) as it does, especially if it's basically because Vogel didn't fall right in line with Bird's vision.

Larry has done a great job of shaping/re shaping the roster a couple different times, but I'm not getting this one.


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Scoot McGroot wrote:I find this insane that Bird is seriously contemplating Vogel's future. Seems that Bird may be upset with Vogel not playing along with forcing PG to the 4, and may end up looking for a guy that plays a bit more to Bird's vision?

"Frank's a great guy. He's going to be fine no matter what happens. If he's back, he'll be fine here. If he's not, he's not. We'll see."

Bird gave no timeline for a decision on Vogel's fate and said he needs to first speak with Pacers owner Herb Simon.

"What I don't want to do is leave Frank hanging. There's other jobs out there he could get," Bird told the Star.

Bird cited the Pacers' 89-84 Game 7 loss to the Toronto Raptors as he discussed Indiana's need for more offense.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15449200/indiana-pacers-president-larry-bird-says-coach-frank-vogel-future-uncertain

I'm with you, Scoot. This doesn't bode well for our future. If Frank goes because he didn't play along with Bird's vision of forcing PG to the 4 then chances are that PG will be gone in a couple of years himself.

I had no idea his contract would end after this season. I assumed he was still under contract and wanted to give him another chance with some better bigs signed in the offseason in stead of firing him.

If his contract needs to be extended now, I wouldn't do it.
Not because of the results, he did a great job of pushing a transition team to the playoffs, and not because he kept playing 2 bigs this season. We just didn't have a good 4 this year.

If you however go out and say things like Mahinmi and Turner are our future starting big duo at the 4 and 5, you are not exactly being a good employee when your boss wants you to play small.

I don't consider him to be a great or unique coach, nor does smallball seem to be his thing, so it might be best to go separate ways now.

Pacersike wrote:I had no idea his contract would end after this season. I assumed he was still under contract and wanted to give him another chance with some better bigs signed in the offseason in stead of firing him.

If his contract needs to be extended now, I wouldn't do it.
Not because of the results, he did a great job of pushing a transition team to the playoffs, and not because he kept playing 2 bigs this season. We just didn't have a good 4 this year.

If you however go out and say things like Mahinmi and Turner are our future starting big duo at the 4 and 5, you are not exactly being a good employee when your boss wants you to play small.

I don't consider him to be a great or unique coach, nor does smallball seem to be his thing, so it might be best to go separate ways now.

I hear you on his comment about Ian and Myles but I chalk that up as more of Vogel's personality and optimism. He also once said that AJ Price was a starting-caliber point guard.

Personally I'd like to see Vogel paired with a Gentry-like assistant to coordinate the offense.


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chube wrote:

Pacersike wrote:I had no idea his contract would end after this season. I assumed he was still under contract and wanted to give him another chance with some better bigs signed in the offseason in stead of firing him.

If his contract needs to be extended now, I wouldn't do it.
Not because of the results, he did a great job of pushing a transition team to the playoffs, and not because he kept playing 2 bigs this season. We just didn't have a good 4 this year.

If you however go out and say things like Mahinmi and Turner are our future starting big duo at the 4 and 5, you are not exactly being a good employee when your boss wants you to play small.

I don't consider him to be a great or unique coach, nor does smallball seem to be his thing, so it might be best to go separate ways now.

I hear you on his comment about Ian and Myles but I chalk that up as more of Vogel's personality and optimism. He also once said that AJ Price was a starting-caliber point guard.

Personally I'd like to see Vogel paired with a Gentry-like assistant to coordinate the offense.


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I hear you too. Bird's personality would probably lead to Larry saying things like Turner is our future center, undisputedly and without any discussion. Making good FA centers, like Mahinmi, think twice about signing with the Pacers.

I think that's what they have to talk about and work out together. If Vogel is willing to stick with smallball next season even if it means the defense takes a hit, he might very well be back. As a coach you need to have some kind of philosophy though and if Frank feels better playing big, this is the moment to separate ways.

I don't mind seeing him back, I don't think of coaches as that important, and Bird has to add better pieces as well, but given the struggles we have had offensively when Frank was coach, I do think he could be fired in the following years even when it might be Larry's fault as well.

I really think Larry and Herb are looking to put more butts in the seats. Parting ways with Vogel comes down to money...and his team this year finished in the bottom 3rd for attendance.

Bird has said many times that hed like for the Pacers to average more points per game, and i think a faster pace could generate more ticket sales. Vogel just seems too uncomfortable with opening up the offense and going along with this though.

Imo, the biggest problem this year was PGs maturity. He was unwilling to adapt to a new offense/position and almost forced Vogel to go back to his old ways. Maybe a new coach can command a little more respect and help with the growth of PG in the mental aspect.

PG is all world at the 3. Whoever wants PG playing the 4 should have their sanity questioned. We need a more athletic 4 to play faster, or smaller (Draymond/Blake). Turner is the perfect C.

I do question how Bird all of the sudden goes to this mindset, because last season he had our roster stocked with Roy and David. Seems you can't get what GS has overnight and Frank should not be held responsible.

I disagreed about PG playing the 4 initially, and looking at what he did this playoffs at the 3 should tell you he belongs there. You cant have him guarding many 2s from the 4 spot, and his offense was awesome.

Other than that, there were no legit stretch 4s on the roster. So what was Frank to do? He tried to make a shooting guard into a small ball 4.

So how exactly was this spread offense supposed to come about?

boomershadow wrote:I disagreed about PG playing the 4 initially, and looking at what he did this playoffs at the 3 should tell you he belongs there. You cant have him guarding many 2s from the 4 spot, and his offense was awesome.

Other than that, there were no legit stretch 4s on the roster. So what was Frank to do? He tried to make a shooting guard into a small ball 4.

So how exactly was this spread offense supposed to come about?

Very good questions. Bird is holding his end of year press conference tomorrow at 12noon. Should find out more than.