Should Turner and Sabonis Start Together? Pacers.com

[winter_mute_13]

I think this is the one thing we are all curious about.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/should-turner-and-sabonis-start-together

Should Turner and Sabonis Start Together?

by Mark Montieth
Pacers.com Writer
Posted: May 03, 2018

An intriguing scenario lurks within the Pacers roster, one that could address some of their primary concerns without the messiness of a major roster change. The trial runs have revealed flaws, however, and tweaks will have to be made before a full-scale version of it can be released.

Myles Turner and Domantas Sabonis are both 6-foot-11, 22-year-old players with solid bodies of work behind them and the potential for much greater accomplishments ahead of them. They generally alternated at center this season but playing them together seems like a natural progression, not to mention a strategy that could bring a major reward.

Kevin Pritchard, the Pacers' President of Basketball Operations, hopes it can work out. He sees two complementary players who combine to provide just about everything a big man can contribute in the modern NBA game.

Turner is a 3-point threat who hit 36 percent of his attempts during the regular season and 46 percent in the playoffs. He was easily the team's best shot-blocker, at 1.8 per game, which ranked fifth in the NBA, and showed more interest in mixing it up around the basket as the season progressed.

Sabonis, meanwhile, had no problem at all mixing it up, and had the facial contusions to prove it. He was the Pacers' best rebounder (7.7 in 24.5 minutes per game) and its best post-up player, as well as a solid mid-range shooter with a field goal percentage of 51 percent. He also shows promise as a 3-point shooter, having hit 35 percent of his 37 attempts during the regular season. He gives the impression of being capable of becoming a more accurate shooter with more playing time and a brighter green light. Over his first 30 games as a rookie in Oklahoma City's wide-open offense last season, he hit 44 percent of his 3-point attempts, including three games in which he hit four.

Given what they've done already, and what they seem capable of doing in the future, the thought of combining them tickles the imagination.

"I don't think there's any doubt they can (play together)," Pritchard said. "You never know how they're going to play together, but I have a lot of faith they could be really good."

Pritchard quickly adds a caveat, however.

"They can't be exactly what they are right now," he said.

For the two to be an effective combination, each will have to round out his skill set. Neither is a classic center or power forward, so it seems best for them to become nearly interchangeable. Turner will need to add strength and become more effective around the basket, while Sabonis will need to hone his shooting touch. More than anything, they need to learn to play together and play off one another.

"Players who play with each other a couple of years, they know where they're going to be," Pritchard said. "That makes the game come slower. Domas, the game already comes slow. He can make reads. Myles, he gets a little frantic. And that makes a difference. He's got to calm down a little bit."

Turner and Sabonis played together in 51 games, for a total of 268 minutes, during the regular season. The results, however, weren't as encouraging as one might assume based on their raw talent. The Pacers had a net rating of +1.6 points during the season, meaning they outscored opponents by that margin for every 100 possessions, but when Turner and Sabonis were in the game the Pacers were outscored by 6.2 points per 100 possessions.

The Pacers were, however, a better rebounding team when the two played together, grabbing 52.2 percent of all missed shots — better than the overall team percentage of 49.6 percent. They would address a primary weakness of a team that ranked 22nd in rebounding during the regular season. They also might draw more fouls if they are effective in the low post, a valuable contribution for a team that ranked 27th in free throw attempts. If they help provide 3-point shooting threats and spread the halfcourt offense, all the better. The Pacers ranked ninth in 3-point shooting percentage (.369) but only 26th in 3-point attempts.

If only it were that simple.

If Turner and Sabonis are starting together, who would defend the agile "stretch four" forward who plays primarily on the perimeter, such as Cleveland's Kevin Love or Golden State's Draymond Green? And, what would become of Thaddeus Young, should he return to the team next season? Young was the most consistent Pacers player in both the regular season and playoffs, and was their most valuable player in the postseason based on Win Share.

As Pritchard said during his press conference on Tuesday, addressing one concern sometimes creates another one.

Regardless of the makeup of the starting lineup, logic dictates Sabonis become part of it someday, or at least get more playing time than the 24 1/2 minutes he averaged this season. He had better scoring and rebounding averages than Turner on a per-minute basis — 17.1 points and 11.4 rebounds per 36 minutes, compared to 16.2 points and 8.2 rebounds.

Sabonis struggled through the first three playoff games against Cleveland, then scored 19, 22, and 19 points in the next three while hitting 26-of-35 shots. He relapsed in Game 7, hitting 3-of-10 shots on his way to 10 points, but showed the same promise he had showed in the regular season.

"Someday, he's a starter quality," Pritchard said. "You have to figure out how to get him on the floor for 30 minutes; he's just too good."

Figuring how to do that should be interesting. He's responsible for the solution as much as anyone, though. Turner can contribute to the equation, too.

[Wizop]

I'm sure KP and Nate are spending hours and hours gaming the possibilities. were I in the room, I'd suggest changing the offense from a 2-2-1 to a 1-2-2. I put that to Monteith once though and he thought a double post offense would clog the lane. I'd also practice zone defense.

assuming neither happens, the question is whether Turner bulks up to be a better 5 or we just move him back to 4 where he played as a rookie. a lot depends upon whether Thad exercises his option. if he's gone, we need TJ and Ike to have huge sophomore bumps. actually, I suppose we need that regardless.

[Tom White]

I agree with some things KP said in that article. At some point Sabonis will need to be starting and playing more minutes. If you play them (Sabonis and Turner) together, who covers mobile PF's? I can see a situation develop where the Pacers would need to move Turner. Many may not like that (Heck, I don't know if I like the idea) but they may need to do it to improve the team. If Turner could be moved for a PF who can equal his output on offense and on the boards, but be a better defender.......?

Part of Turner's problem is, he seems to be the same "big lovable kid" that he has always been. He needs to become more than that.
Although he is still young I'm not sure how much he can change. He and Sabonis are the same age, yet Sabonis seems to be more of the "adult" in the front court. More ready for battle, so to speak.

[Topofthekey]

^This

One thing that I've noticed about Myles is, he's like a boy playing among men

It makes him very endearing to us who watch the Pacers, but you can't help but feel that he needs to, "man up", so to speak

You can notice it from his body language, the subtle signs, like how he slumps his shoulders sometimes, or dips his head

However, I am personally actually quite sick of all those "tough guy" images that NBA players try to sell, yelling and doing a "strong man" pose, those kind of crap, so I am in no way suggesting Myles take after them

Rather, Myles just needs to get stronger internally, whether is it confidence, composure, assertiveness, or something else

[Wizop]

I can argue that instead of bulking up to be a 5, he should work at becoming a 4. perhaps Dipos trainers in Miami could develop a program for Turner but they really should work with our trainers. the Miami group and the Indy group need to be on the same page.

Sent from my phone.

[Pacers_Freak]

My fear of moving Myles back to 4 was talked about in the article. How do we cover the stretch 4s that are becoming more and more prevent in the NBA? At this point in time Myles is not agile enough to do so. He is a tweener. I have called him a 4.5. I think in the perfect world he becomes a more offensively able (young) Serge Ibaka. Where he is athletic enough to cover stretch 4s but still has the ability to help protect the rim which is a weakness of Sabonis. I know this though.... it's a damn good problem to have!

[Wizop]

My fear of moving Myles back to 4 was talked about in the article. How do we cover the stretch 4s that are becoming more and more prevent in the NBA? .... I know this though.... it's a damn good problem to have!

Damos has the same problem at 4. who could change their body easier? Dipo sure got thinner and faster in a very short time. maybe that's easier than bulking up.

plus I remember how Smits struggled until the team stopped trying to put weight on him and let him be himself.

Sent from my phone.

[Moooose]

We will see in Year 2. The problem was freaking obvious. If both Myles and Domas are in the floor together, they eat up each others' spaces. Either someone needs to step down to 4 when they go together, or they should speak up who's switching. Familiarity in Year 2 should help a lot, and we should see a progression from this year.

Myles will never be a 4. He will never get any faster (to a level of Thad Young). He will only get weaker if he loses weight. And will become slower if he bulks up. If there is someone who can turn into a 4, I believe it would be Domas, though he will still struggle defending the stretch 4's. Both aren't as fast as Thad and both of them never will. If they have one advantage playing together, it would be the big man plays and going against thinner, possibly leaner stretch 4's on offense through post. And one more thing, we are slower with both of them on the floor.

I beg to differ, but 1-2-2 defense will just make him sprint into the corners everytime. And if he's not fast enough, the opponents will likely get a shot off. To me, 3-2 will make more sense, as the 2 and the 3 are responsible for the shooters at the corners.

I really wouldn't mind the front office if they will make a move for either players. Having them both is a good thing, yes. But the bad side is, possibly, equally as big too.

[winter_mute_13]

If Turner could be moved for a PF who can equal his output on offense and on the boards, but be a better defender.......?

In principle I agree, but where are you going to find this player? Guys like Turner are described as "unicorns" for a reason. The closest I could think of is a younger Ibaka, but the current Ibaka is more of a 5 now and got badly exposed by Kevin Love.

On Myles' maturity and awareness - definitely he is far behind Domas in this regard, and I think is the number one thing he needs to improve. This is a common flaw for young players though, and Domas not suffering from this makes him very exceptional IMO.

Which is not to say that Domas doesn't have a huge laundry list of things he needs to improve either. He needs to work on his right hand. He needs to work on his outside shooting. He needs to work on his TOs from the post. There is a lot, but they seem like technical things that should be achievable.

I don't know either what the future holds. It could be that we try to develop both Myles and Domas, keep the better one and trade the other. It could be that we keep both, and just try to minimize the time they play together. Or it could be that we figure out a way both can play together. I agree it looks unlikely right now, but let's see what the offseason brings.

[winter_mute_13]

Btw I think our situation with Turner and Sabonis is similar to the Heat's with Whiteside and Olynyk. The comparison is not exact - our guys are much younger of course, Myles is a much better shooter than Whiteside, Domas is stronger and tougher than Olynyk but not as good a shooter. But the similarities are there.

[Wizop]

I beg to differ, but 1-2-2 defense will just make him sprint into the corners everytime.

I meant 1.2.2 on offense, not defense. double post.

Sent from my phone.

[Pacers_Freak]

I beg to differ, but 1-2-2 defense will just make him sprint into the corners everytime.

I meant 1.2.2 on offense, not defense. double post.

Sent from my phone.

If you go double post you are taking away driving lanes which is what Dipo does best. I think the answer is basically what happened this year and what Houston does with CP3 and Harden. Stagger their minutes. They can play together some but let them be them. One always on the floor.

[Wizop]

If you go double post you are taking away driving lanes which is what Dipo does best.

that's the answer I got from Mark Monteith, too. I'm not sure why a player with his back to the basket wouldn't be aware of the need to get out of the way of a driving teammate or why two players one on each block take away more lanes than one player right in front of the basket, but I'll leave those questions to the coaches.

[Pacers_Freak]

If you go double post you are taking away driving lanes which is what Dipo does best.

that's the answer I got from Mark Monteith, too. I'm not sure why a player with his back to the basket wouldn't be aware of the need to get out of the way of a driving teammate or why two players one on each block take away more lanes than one player right in front of the basket, but I'll leave those questions to the coaches.

Just spacing. If I'm driving to the bucket and there is a guy on the block I've got to pull up in front of him to shoot. If my teammate is in the corner now the defense has to decide does he leave the corner 3 or come help on me in the paint. I'd also argue that Turner's post up game isn't the greatest anyway. I think he is much more valuable in the catch and shoot, pick and pop game.

[Wizop]

I'd also argue that Turner's post up game isn't the greatest anyway. I think he is much more valuable in the catch and shoot, pick and pop game.

in other words, as a 4 on offense.

[Moooose]

I beg to differ, but 1-2-2 defense will just make him sprint into the corners everytime.

I meant 1.2.2 on offense, not defense. double post.

Sent from my phone.

My bad. Thanks for the clarification.

[boomershadow]

Of course, it depends on Thad's free agency and whether the team picks up any other power forward in the off-season. Having Sabonis on the bench assures there is a backup for Turner ready if there is foul trouble. It also puts him in the same unit with Lance, and I like their chemistry. It's unfortunate because he is definitely "good enough to start", but as long as he gets enough minutes his best fit is off the bench. Unless something happens this off-season.

I thought Turner seemed like a legit center this year down the stretch. He was stronger and tougher than he was the last few seasons, and he can keep improving there. It's more difficult to get quicker to guard stretch fours than it is to hit the weight room. And he needs to be near the basket to protect the rim. The Serge Ibaka shot blocking power forward is less effective than it was in the past because other 4s are hanging out so far away from the basket. Even Ibaka plays a lot of center now.

There will be times when they share the floor, but I don't think they need to start together. And Domas should be guarding the opposing 4 when they do.

[Wizop]

Of course, it depends on Thad's free agency and whether the team picks up any other power forward in the off-season.

or brings Booker back,

It's more difficult to get quicker to guard stretch fours than it is to hit the weight room.

perhaps, but Vic sure got a lot quicker last summer by training hard and dropping body fat. top strength and conditioning coaches can now create eating and exercise programs designed with different objectives in mind.

[Yunsen]

Btw I think our situation with Turner and Sabonis is similar to the Heat's with Whiteside and Olynyk. The comparison is not exact - our guys are much younger of course, Myles is a much better shooter than Whiteside, Domas is stronger and tougher than Olynyk but not as good a shooter. But the similarities are there.

Olynyk and Whiteside are both 5’s and should never play the 4. The appeal of them starting together was Olynyk is one of the best bigs at abusing mismatches on offense. He’s not fast enough to guard most PF’s though and his length is so bad (seriously go look at his wingspan) that he’s not that much better at contesting shots compared to centers.

[Pacersike]

I have my doubts but my head is(was) full of doubts so

Hell yeah, both will improve a lot and kick other starters small asses!

I believe.