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Pacers have a glut at C and PF yadda yadda, you know the story by now

The question is what to do about it?

Pacers have 5 players (Myles, Thad, Domas, Kyle, Leaf) who all deserve playing time (to a varying degree), but there are only 96 minutes available, and that is not taking into account some small ball configurations where only 1 of them are on the floor

Of course, we can just tell ourselves "Hey it's a good problem to have", shrug, and do nothing

But, to paraphrase something I read somewhere, Vic is 26, and 26 becomes 32 in the blink of an eye; about the worst thing the Pacers can do right now is to be complacent

It doesn't help that Thad (and to a lesser extent Kyle) does not have a contract beyond this season, which raises another question: do we bring them back? I suppose with Kyle, it's easy to just let him walk, but with Thad it's genuinely a tough question to answer

It makes it even tougher that none of them, except maybe Sabonis, is clearly a cut above the rest: Myles is a great rim protector, shoots well, and is still young with plenty of upside; Thad is your super blue-collar workhorse type who does all the scrappy little things that helps you win when he's playing; Leaf, even though most find him disappointing so far, still holds promise (he shoots well, is underrated at finishing at the rim, and is an above average rebounder - watch him when he plays; when a shot goes up, he goes into attack mode positioning himself for the rebound, as opposed to, say Myles, who tends to just stand still and look)

The situation reminds me a little of when the Suns had all three of Isaiah Thomas, Goran Dragic, and Eric Bledsoe on their team - they ended up not being to utilize any of them effectively, and parted ways with all three of them

So, assuming the Pacers want to get as much mileage as possible out of this, what's the best way forward? Some sort of trade? Tweaking the lineup? Re-sign all of them and keep the status quo?

The question is, what are your hopes for this year? If you think this team has absolutely no chance to compete for a championship, then go ahead and trade Thad and Kyle and develop Myles, Dom, and Leaf to play together. If you think that Indy could compete for the East, and thus, a finals appearance where anything could happen, then you keep them all, and maybe look to possibly deal TJ for a possible upgrade elsewhere. Thad is that scrappy veteran you need in the playoffs, and in the playoffs where play slows down and every possession matters, Thad will matter. And the emergency safety net of KOQ in case of injury will be huge.

If you’re somewhere in between? Then, who the hell knows.

Topofthekey wrote:Pacers have a glut at C and PF yadda yadda, you know the story by now

The question is what to do about it?

Pacers have 5 players (Myles, Thad, Domas, Kyle, Leaf) who all deserve playing time (to a varying degree), but there are only 96 minutes available, and that is not taking into account some small ball configurations where only 1 of them are on the floor

I believe you may be overthinking things a bit. Not to mention only looking at one side of the coin.

Taking a different look at those five players -

While Leaf has improved, he is not ready for heavier minutes yet. It may be another year before he is close to that.

Kyle seems happy just to be here. After all, he was a second round pick (49 overall) and has outlasted a number of guys picked in a similar position. He doesn't impress me as the sort to chase more minutes on a lesser team and appears to truly appreciate the culture and capabilities of this team.

You mention going with a small lineup, but what about a situation where we can take advantage of the reverse? We've all seen that Thad can guard a number of small forwards, so are there circumstances where the team might choose to go big instead? Playing Myles, Domas and Thad together for stretches might be interesting. None of them are "plodders" after all.

Anyway, I don't think it is a situation to be worried about at all.

I see no glut. I think you need 5 guys who can defend the post and that's what we have. 5 guys can't all get rotation minutes but that's a normal part of a 12 man roster.

now next year Ike could make KOQ expendable. I think Alize is a 3 but perhaps he's a 4 if only in smaller lineups. Thad wants a multi year deal, but how will he feel about transitioning to the 2nd unit? what will the draft give us?

questions ahead. I wouldn't risk losing chemistry midseason though.

Sent from my phone.

Thad Young is a tricky situation. He has certainly played well enough to warrant bringing back, and his vet presence in the locker room seems important, but there are complicating factors. At his age, he is almost definitely wanting a long term deal with his last big payday. And does the tram want to commit to that going forward? Especially with Sabonis sitting there on the bench.

Coach is less excited about the Sabonis/Turner pairing than the general fanbase seems to be, but it seems like it has to be the future to me.

boomershadow wrote:Thad Young is a tricky situation. He has certainly played well enough to warrant bringing back, and his vet presence in the locker room seems important, but there are complicating factors. At his age, he is almost definitely wanting a long term deal with his last big payday. And does the tram want to commit to that going forward? Especially with Sabonis sitting there on the bench.

Coach is less excited about the Sabonis/Turner pairing than the general fanbase seems to be, but it seems like it has to be the future to me.

I don't think Young will command that much money in the summer. He is a good power forward, but he is not a shooter, and that's what everybody wants at that position right now. Teams won't have that much cap space either. I can see a 3 year 24 mil. deal being enough to get him back.

KOQ knew exactly what he was getting into and was specifically told he would be the emergency big that Big Al was last year. If he doesn't get minutes, it means we're in good shape.

Leaf still sucks and has not earned minutes. Maybe he will with another summer of work, but right now we have no reason to be playing him.

So I'm really not seeing a glut, at least not any more than the majority of other teams also have.

I'm hoping Thad stays on a nice, semi-long-term contract that allows him to retire a Pacer and maintain a role off the bench for the next few years. He's a tremendous locker room presence and veteran leader. But I'd like to see Domas start in his place.

KOQ is great, I say we keep him if possible. Seems to fit right in and plays above his salary and given role when given minutes.

I'll pack Leaf's bags for him right now. Get him outta here and give me Alize in his spot. Alize can get minutes off the bench and bring another Thad-like player to the team. High effort, high energy, hustle plays, good-not-great offense, and positional versatility. Leaf gives you nothing but shooting and we have that in Bogey, McD, and others. I'd be more than willing to send TJ and DC somewhere for an upgrade at starting PG.

pizza guy wrote:KOQ is great, I say we keep him if possible. Seems to fit right in and plays above his salary and given role when given minutes.

possible, but also possible Ike is ready to be an emergency big next year leaving only a locker room leader job for KOQ.

Wizop wrote:

pizza guy wrote:KOQ is great, I say we keep him if possible. Seems to fit right in and plays above his salary and given role when given minutes.

possible, but also possible Ike is ready to be an emergency big next year leaving only a locker room leader job for KOQ.

As much as I hope Ike will be ready for that role, I'm not sure he's going to make the jump. I was really hoping for it, and maybe it still happens, but I'm not confident in it.

pizza guy wrote:As much as I hope Ike will be ready for that role, I'm not sure he's going to make the jump.

agreed but as long as Turner and Sabonis take all of the center minutes barring injuries or foul trouble, a big jump isn't needed.

Sent from my phone.

Scoot McGroot wrote:The question is, what are your hopes for this year? If you think this team has absolutely no chance to compete for a championship, then go ahead and trade Thad and Kyle and develop Myles, Dom, and Leaf to play together. If you think that Indy could compete for the East, and thus, a finals appearance where anything could happen, then you keep them all, and maybe look to possibly deal TJ for a possible upgrade elsewhere. Thad is that scrappy veteran you need in the playoffs, and in the playoffs where play slows down and every possession matters, Thad will matter. And the emergency safety net of KOQ in case of injury will be huge.

If you’re somewhere in between? Then, who the hell knows.

That's a very relevant question

I think a reasonable expectation/goal for this generation of Pacers is 4 ECF appearance + at least 1 or 2 trips to the Finals over the next 5 seasons (not including this season); at least that is my personal expectation

However I think the roster, as it currently stands, is still a little short of being able to achieve that goal; I'd say it is perhaps only 70-80% there, with some more adjustments needed before I can feel confident enough of seeing them chasing that goal

The way I see them achieving that is similar to the early 2000s Pistons: playing great defense, and fielding a team that is greater than the sum of its parts

In terms of their starting 5, Ben Wallace and Richard Hamilton were two sides of a coin basically: one brings defense, the other offense. Rasheed Wallace and Chauncey Billups were both good defenders, while being a 20pt scoring threat every game. Tayshaun Prince plays great defense, and can be counted on as a supplementary scorer

To sum it up,

On defense:
2 elite/great defenders: Ben Wallace, Prince
2 decent/good defenders: Sheed, Billups
1 poor/adequate defender: Hamilton

On offense:
3 major scoring threats: Hamilton, Billups, Sheed
1 supplementary scorer: Prince
1 non scorer: Ben Wallace

So if we're going to draw rough parallels for the Pacers,

On defense:
2 elite/great defenders: Vic, ?
2 good/decent defenders: Thad, ?
1 poor/adequate defender: DC

Seems to imply that Myles and Bogie, or whoever starts in their place, need to be better defenders

On offense:
3 major scoring threats: Vic, ?, ?
1 supplementary scorer: Thad
1 non scorer: DC

Seems to imply that Myles and Bogie, or whoever starts in their place, need to be more consistent scoring threats

Also obvious that DC is the weakest starter

Topofthekey wrote:On defense:
2 elite/great defenders: Vic, ?
2 good/decent defenders: Thad, ?
1 poor/adequate defender: DC

Seems to imply that Myles and Bogie, or whoever starts in their place, need to be better defenders

Myles leads the league in blocks. CoJo is a good to great defender.

on offense a lot depends upon whether Tyreke can be a solid scorer off the bench.

Topofthekey wrote:On offense:
3 major scoring threats: Vic, ?, ?
1 supplementary scorer: Thad
1 non scorer: DC

Did you know that Victor is the 10th best shooter on the team by fg percentage?
This team has shooters. It is just that no one player gets the lion's share of shots. They share the buren.

Wizop wrote:CoJo is a good to great defender.

Good, no where near great.

boomershadow wrote:Thad Young is a tricky situation. He has certainly played well enough to warrant bringing back, and his vet presence in the locker room seems important, but there are complicating factors. At his age, he is almost definitely wanting a long term deal with his last big payday. And does the tram want to commit to that going forward? Especially with Sabonis sitting there on the bench.

Coach is less excited about the Sabonis/Turner pairing than the general fanbase seems to be, but it seems like it has to be the future to me.

Thad does want a long term deal. At least that is what he said in training camp. I know the Pacers want to go into Free Agency this summer and see what they can get. But I have to think they will bring Thad back on a 3 or 4 year deal. The smart way to do it would be on a deal that starts big and gets smaller that gives him his money now and he takes up a smaller percent of the cap as he ages. He plays his butt off and has taken on that leadership role that was left open when David West left.

if his deal is a 4 year deal the last year could be a partial guarantee, just in case he slows down a lot by then.

Gooner wrote:

boomershadow wrote:Thad Young is a tricky situation. He has certainly played well enough to warrant bringing back, and his vet presence in the locker room seems important, but there are complicating factors. At his age, he is almost definitely wanting a long term deal with his last big payday. And does the tram want to commit to that going forward? Especially with Sabonis sitting there on the bench.

Coach is less excited about the Sabonis/Turner pairing than the general fanbase seems to be, but it seems like it has to be the future to me.

I don't think Young will command that much money in the summer. He is a good power forward, but he is not a shooter, and that's what everybody wants at that position right now. Teams won't have that much cap space either. I can see a 3 year 24 mil. deal being enough to get him back.

I think he can get a little more than 3 years 24 million, I'm betting on $12 million with maximum declining for 3 or 4 years. I think they are a few teams that realize just how tough Thad is, he may not put up "Blake Griffin" numbers but then again neither does Blake when he plays against Thad Young.

Topofthekey wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:The question is, what are your hopes for this year? If you think this team has absolutely no chance to compete for a championship, then go ahead and trade Thad and Kyle and develop Myles, Dom, and Leaf to play together. If you think that Indy could compete for the East, and thus, a finals appearance where anything could happen, then you keep them all, and maybe look to possibly deal TJ for a possible upgrade elsewhere. Thad is that scrappy veteran you need in the playoffs, and in the playoffs where play slows down and every possession matters, Thad will matter. And the emergency safety net of KOQ in case of injury will be huge.

If you’re somewhere in between? Then, who the hell knows.

That's a very relevant question

I think a reasonable expectation/goal for this generation of Pacers is 4 ECF appearance + at least 1 or 2 trips to the Finals over the next 5 seasons (not including this season); at least that is my personal expectation

However I think the roster, as it currently stands, is still a little short of being able to achieve that goal; I'd say it is perhaps only 70-80% there, with some more adjustments needed before I can feel confident enough of seeing them chasing that goal

The way I see them achieving that is similar to the early 2000s Pistons: playing great defense, and fielding a team that is greater than the sum of its parts

In terms of their starting 5, Ben Wallace and Richard Hamilton were two sides of a coin basically: one brings defense, the other offense. Rasheed Wallace and Chauncey Billups were both good defenders, while being a 20pt scoring threat every game. Tayshaun Prince plays great defense, and can be counted on as a supplementary scorer

To sum it up,

On defense:
2 elite/great defenders: Ben Wallace, Prince
2 decent/good defenders: Sheed, Billups
1 poor/adequate defender: Hamilton

On offense:
3 major scoring threats: Hamilton, Billups, Sheed
1 supplementary scorer: Prince
1 non scorer: Ben Wallace

So if we're going to draw rough parallels for the Pacers,

On defense:
2 elite/great defenders: Vic, ?
2 good/decent defenders: Thad, ?
1 poor/adequate defender: DC

Seems to imply that Myles and Bogie, or whoever starts in their place, need to be better defenders

On offense:
3 major scoring threats: Vic, ?, ?
1 supplementary scorer: Thad
1 non scorer: DC

Seems to imply that Myles and Bogie, or whoever starts in their place, need to be more consistent scoring threats

Also obvious that DC is the weakest starter

So I guess we need to get Taurean Prince from the Hawks and we're set.

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Gooner wrote:

boomershadow wrote:Thad Young is a tricky situation. He has certainly played well enough to warrant bringing back, and his vet presence in the locker room seems important, but there are complicating factors. At his age, he is almost definitely wanting a long term deal with his last big payday. And does the tram want to commit to that going forward? Especially with Sabonis sitting there on the bench.

Coach is less excited about the Sabonis/Turner pairing than the general fanbase seems to be, but it seems like it has to be the future to me.

I don't think Young will command that much money in the summer. He is a good power forward, but he is not a shooter, and that's what everybody wants at that position right now. Teams won't have that much cap space either. I can see a 3 year 24 mil. deal being enough to get him back.

I think he can get a little more than 3 years 24 million, I'm betting on $12 million with maximum declining for 3 or 4 years. I think they are a few teams that realize just how tough Thad is, he may not put up "Blake Griffin" numbers but then again neither does Blake when he plays against Thad Young.

I think Thad would be worth that money, but i'm not sure he'll get it, simply because today's obsession with 3 point shooting, and teams not having much cap space. Look at Julius Randle for example. He is kinda similar to Thad, left handed power forward, scores mostly inside, but he is a younger, more potent player than him. He only got about 18 mil for two years, because he is not a stretch 4. So that could be good for the Pacers, beacuese they won't have to overpay for Thad.

Gooner wrote:

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Gooner wrote:
I don't think Young will command that much money in the summer. He is a good power forward, but he is not a shooter, and that's what everybody wants at that position right now. Teams won't have that much cap space either. I can see a 3 year 24 mil. deal being enough to get him back.

I think he can get a little more than 3 years 24 million, I'm betting on $12 million with maximum declining for 3 or 4 years. I think they are a few teams that realize just how tough Thad is, he may not put up "Blake Griffin" numbers but then again neither does Blake when he plays against Thad Young.

I think Thad would be worth that money, but i'm not sure he'll get it, simply because today's obsession with 3 point shooting, and teams not having much cap space. Look at Julius Randle for example. He is kinda similar to Thad, left handed power forward, scores mostly inside, but he is a younger, more potent player than him. He only got about 18 mil for two years, because he is not a stretch 4. So that could be good for the Pacers, beacuese they won't have to overpay for Thad.

Pritchard is on record numerous times saying that Thad brings so much more than what you see in a box score though, and that the team really relies on him in a number of ways. So while I think your comparison is somewhat valid, I think Thad will most likely receive a larger contract than Randle based on those less quantifiable aspects of his game that Pritch has praised regularly.

My hope is that he'll sign a 3 or 4 year deal with the understanding that he'll be moving to the bench as soon as next season. Still getting 25-30 minutes most nights, and being a big part of the team. But his contract should reflect a reduced role going forward as the Myles + Domas train keeps rolling.