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I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer

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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#41 » by Gooner » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:06 am

Vorda wrote:
Jake0890 wrote:
xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:Really? I'd take Kemba over Middleton or Harris 100 times out of 100.


Sure talent wise, Kemba > Middleton and Harris. Neither of them are scoring 60 points anytime soon.

But the last thing this team needs is a ball dominant scoring PG who takes shots away from Oladipo, Turner, and Sabonis. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Oladipo is the future starting ball handler on this team, whether he likes it or not. It only makes sense.

Tobias Harris is simply a better version of Thaddeus Young. He's my number 1 priority this offseason. He scores, rebounds, defends, can play both the 3 and 4. Middleton less so. If you think Bojan is the problem on this team, then Middleton is the guy for you. But either way, he's more talented too. The perfect 3-pt shooting SF in today's NBA.

In the end, Kemba is a 28 year old scoring point guard in a league that's slowly transitioning away from traditional point guards. Middleton is a 27 year old 3 point small forward with great length. Tobias Harris is a 26 year old SF/PF that can score, defend, and rebound. It's about fit on the team and the value of the players going forward. If we had a bad team that lacked a go-to scoring threat, Kemba is my guy. Otherwise, gimme the other two.

Serious question - can you imagine Kemba and Oladipo on the floor on the same time? How does that work? who's getting the ball in crunch time?


Oladipo is not enough for title run... he is struggeling against the best teams and he needs help from someone like Kemba... there will be enough balls for both of them... we despertly need more talent here... if we will have opportunity to take Kemba we have to do that...


No, but with Turner and Sabonis, who are both future all stars, that's the core that can be a contender.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#42 » by Pacers_Freak » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:02 pm

Honest question for the Tobias supporters. Are you moving Turner or Sabonis? I think we can all agree Sabonis doesn't get a enough run as it is. Bringing in a high dollar guy at PF takes those minutes away. We will pay Sabonis a hefty sum when it is due. So we are going to have over 60 million a season tied up to 2 spots on the floor? That financially makes no sense for the team. If you are in the sign Harris camp then you have to send someone away.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#43 » by Wizop » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:13 pm

Driving home after the game last night, I listened to Boyle and White discuss the Pacer record over the time Mark's been here. it has been a very long time since the Pacers have lost 50 games in a season. it has been a very long time since the Pacers have had a losing home record. some call this being a treadmill team. Mark called it a record of being consistently good.

would you prefer boom or bust?
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#44 » by Pacers_Freak » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:25 pm

Wizop wrote:Driving home after the game last night, I listened to Boyle and White discuss the Pacer record over the time Mark's been here. it has been a very long time since the Pacers have lost 50 games in a season. it has been a very long time since the Pacers have had a losing home record. some call this being a treadmill team. Mark called it a record of being consistently good.

would you prefer boom or bust?


Another important thing that Pacer fans, especially Pacer fans that don't live in Indiana fail to remember. This is a business for the Simon family. I'm sure they would love to win an NBA championship, but I'd bet they would take 29-14 every single year and not think twice about it. When you are 29-14 there are butts in the seats. They weren't awful 9-10 years ago in the Murhpy/Dunleavy days but were not a playoff team and I vividly remember getting seats on Stubhub for under 20 bucks to sit in the lower bowl when a bad team was visiting on a weekday. The arena was relatively empty. The Simon family wants a consistent winning product that will put fans in the seats.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#45 » by Wizop » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:42 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote: The Simon family wants a consistent winning product that will put fans in the seats.


I used to have some connections that allowed me to have an occasional dinner with Pacer insiders. I know for a fact that in the post brawl years the Simons were losing some $30 million dollars a year. even one playoff series can be the difference between profit and loss for the year. we're lucky to have good owners who do not meddle. Mark mentioned that they allow continuity and while they have let coaches go at the end of their contracts, they haven't fired them. Donnie, Larry, and not Kevin have called the signals for the full 30 years. sure they made mistakes from time to time but we've never had to start from scratch. continuity matters.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#46 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:58 pm

xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:
Jake0890 wrote:I'm not advocating a max contract for Kemba (much rather see one for Middleton or Harris), but I think we have to sink some money into a single player. Condense our money, if you will.

As it stands, with our current depth, guys that need to be getting minutes, that should be getting minutes can't sniff the floor. With Edmund Sumner and Alize Johnson lighting it up in Ft. Wayne, them along with Aaron Holiday and dare I say TJ Leaf should be on the floor. We've got to see what we've got. Letting multiple pieces go and replacing them with a higher paid player allows us to "call up" those guys from the G League and let them see the floor. /

Specifically with our guard rotation, as long as we've got Dipo, Joseph, DC, and Tyreke, Sumner and Holiday will never be able to get on the floor. There's just too many proven guys.

Really? I'd take Kemba over Middleton or Harris 100 times out of 100.


I would not touch any of them for max money, $32 million a year?? Again on Harris he's not a SF anymore. So you want to pay him say $25 million when we have Sabonis? I'd rather bring back Thad Young on a declining contract starting at $12 million. I know he wants a long term deal and we know he is good defender. I see him moving to the 2nd unit and Damos starting next year.

Middleton could be a good signing if he's in the $20-22 million range for 4 yrs I'd rather make it 3 but with the money that will be flying around who knows what crazy offers he will get.

I think I said before that I'd use the cap space to take on a contract or 2 and get paid to do it. There will be teams who need to create some space to go after those high priced guys and we could benefit by it.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#47 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:12 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:
Wizop wrote:Driving home after the game last night, I listened to Boyle and White discuss the Pacer record over the time Mark's been here. it has been a very long time since the Pacers have lost 50 games in a season. it has been a very long time since the Pacers have had a losing home record. some call this being a treadmill team. Mark called it a record of being consistently good.

would you prefer boom or bust?


Another important thing that Pacer fans, especially Pacer fans that don't live in Indiana fail to remember. This is a business for the Simon family. I'm sure they would love to win an NBA championship, but I'd bet they would take 29-14 every single year and not think twice about it. When you are 29-14 there are butts in the seats. They weren't awful 9-10 years ago in the Murhpy/Dunleavy days but were not a playoff team and I vividly remember getting seats on Stubhub for under 20 bucks to sit in the lower bowl when a bad team was visiting on a weekday. The arena was relatively empty. The Simon family wants a consistent winning product that will put fans in the seats.



OMG you invoked Murphleavy!! :lol:

I had actually blocked that out of my memory!

What you said about the team being a business for the Simons, you're right. They need to make money with this team the shopping mall biz ain't what it use to be, some of the malls they owned have failed. This team cannot get locked into giant contracts and pay the Tax, much less the "Repeater Tax." Look at the Wizards if you want to see how bad it can get. They were in the tax last year and look like it again this year. The Hornets are not quit in the tax but they are in cap hell, they can't improve the team with the likes of Batum making $25 million, Williams, Zeller, MKG and Biyombo? How are they gonna resign Kemba Walker? They'll be in the tax next year.

When teams over reach trying to get great now they screw up. Memphis signing Parsons to that huge contract. LAL giving Deng and Mozgov huge contracts 2 years ago, what were they thinking? They had to give away Russell to get out of Mozgov and they had to pay Deng to leave (buyout and stretch) now they have dead money on the books for years out.

At the end of the day Basketball is a business.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#48 » by Pacers_Freak » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:29 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
Wizop wrote:Driving home after the game last night, I listened to Boyle and White discuss the Pacer record over the time Mark's been here. it has been a very long time since the Pacers have lost 50 games in a season. it has been a very long time since the Pacers have had a losing home record. some call this being a treadmill team. Mark called it a record of being consistently good.

would you prefer boom or bust?


Another important thing that Pacer fans, especially Pacer fans that don't live in Indiana fail to remember. This is a business for the Simon family. I'm sure they would love to win an NBA championship, but I'd bet they would take 29-14 every single year and not think twice about it. When you are 29-14 there are butts in the seats. They weren't awful 9-10 years ago in the Murhpy/Dunleavy days but were not a playoff team and I vividly remember getting seats on Stubhub for under 20 bucks to sit in the lower bowl when a bad team was visiting on a weekday. The arena was relatively empty. The Simon family wants a consistent winning product that will put fans in the seats.



OMG you invoked Murphleavy!! :lol:

I had actually blocked that out of my memory!

What you said about the team being a business for the Simons, you're right. They need to make money with this team the shopping mall biz ain't what it use to be, some of the malls they owned have failed. This team cannot get locked into giant contracts and pay the Tax, much less the "Repeater Tax." Look at the Wizards if you want to see how bad it can get. They were in the tax last year and look like it again this year. The Hornets are not quit in the tax but they are in cap hell, they can't improve the team with the likes of Batum making $25 million, Williams, Zeller, MKG and Biyombo? How are they gonna resign Kemba Walker? They'll be in the tax next year.

When teams over reach trying to get great now they screw up. Memphis signing Parsons to that huge contract. LAL giving Deng and Mozgov huge contracts 2 years ago, what were they thinking? They had to give away Russell to get out of Mozgov and they had to pay Deng to leave (buyout and stretch) now they have dead money on the books for years out.

At the end of the day Basketball is a business.


Sorry friend.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#49 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:51 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:Honest question for the Tobias supporters. Are you moving Turner or Sabonis? I think we can all agree Sabonis doesn't get a enough run as it is. Bringing in a high dollar guy at PF takes those minutes away. We will pay Sabonis a hefty sum when it is due. So we are going to have over 60 million a season tied up to 2 spots on the floor? That financially makes no sense for the team. If you are in the sign Harris camp then you have to send someone away.


I mean, $70+million. Tobias would get a max starting at over $32m. Turner extended at $18m a year. You’re at $50 already, and it’s prwtty likely that Dom gets AT LEAST Turner money, if not more, as the cap keeps rising and starting salaries keep rising. $20+m is pretty easy to see and justify.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#50 » by Pacers_Freak » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:58 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:Honest question for the Tobias supporters. Are you moving Turner or Sabonis? I think we can all agree Sabonis doesn't get a enough run as it is. Bringing in a high dollar guy at PF takes those minutes away. We will pay Sabonis a hefty sum when it is due. So we are going to have over 60 million a season tied up to 2 spots on the floor? That financially makes no sense for the team. If you are in the sign Harris camp then you have to send someone away.


I mean, $70+million. Tobias would get a max starting at over $32m. Turner extended at $18m a year. You’re at $50 already, and it’s prwtty likely that Dom gets AT LEAST Turner money, if not more, as the cap keeps rising and starting salaries keep rising. $20+m is pretty easy to see and justify.


I already told you reading was my good subject. Don't be making fun of my math. :lol:
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#51 » by Wizop » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:20 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:What you said about the team being a business for the Simons, you're right. They need to make money


I suspect they would be quite satisfied just not losing money.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#52 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:40 pm

Wizop wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:What you said about the team being a business for the Simons, you're right. They need to make money


I suspect they would be quite satisfied just not losing money.


I have not seen the financials but I'd think this team should be making money. Probably not a lot. They've shown financial restraint over the last few years and still been competitive even in the year that PG had the broken leg, everyone said tank, but they didn't. We've seen a steady upgrade in talent year after year without breaking the bank. Remember when Chris Copeland was the backup SF that was only about 4 yrs ago. Our back up center is Kyle O'Quinn much better than Al Jefferson. Bogie is much better than CJ Miles ever was, and Cory Joseph is a great backup pg. There are no Rodney Stuckey's, Chase Budingers, or Jordan Hills on this team.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#53 » by Pacers_Freak » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:06 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Wizop wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:What you said about the team being a business for the Simons, you're right. They need to make money


I suspect they would be quite satisfied just not losing money.


I have not seen the financials but I'd think this team should be making money. Probably not a lot. They've shown financial restraint over the last few years and still been competitive even in the year that PG had the broken leg, everyone said tank, but they didn't. We've seen a steady upgrade in talent year after year without breaking the bank. Remember when Chris Copeland was the backup SF that was only about 4 yrs ago. Our back up center is Kyle O'Quinn much better than Al Jefferson. Bogie is much better than CJ Miles ever was, and Cory Joseph is a great backup pg. There are no Rodney Stuckey's, Chase Budingers, or Jordan Hills on this team.


Good gosh I had forgotten that he even existed. What a name drop.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#54 » by pacers33granger » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:34 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:There are no Rodney Stuckey's, Chase Budingers, or Jordan Hills on this team.


As much as they all sucked (and as much as I hated Budinger as a player), I don't think 9-10th men were or ever will be the difference in making money or getting fans to attend. I mean, no one is saying they don't want to support the team because the volleyball player who has no concept of how to play basketball is sitting on the bench and rarely plays right?

Though I do agree with your overall point, those teams were not very fun to watch in general. Some of that likely had to do with Vogel's coaching style though.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#55 » by xxSnEaKyPxx » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:00 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:
Jake0890 wrote:I'm not advocating a max contract for Kemba (much rather see one for Middleton or Harris), but I think we have to sink some money into a single player. Condense our money, if you will.

As it stands, with our current depth, guys that need to be getting minutes, that should be getting minutes can't sniff the floor. With Edmund Sumner and Alize Johnson lighting it up in Ft. Wayne, them along with Aaron Holiday and dare I say TJ Leaf should be on the floor. We've got to see what we've got. Letting multiple pieces go and replacing them with a higher paid player allows us to "call up" those guys from the G League and let them see the floor. /

Specifically with our guard rotation, as long as we've got Dipo, Joseph, DC, and Tyreke, Sumner and Holiday will never be able to get on the floor. There's just too many proven guys.

Really? I'd take Kemba over Middleton or Harris 100 times out of 100.


I would not touch any of them for max money, $32 million a year?? Again on Harris he's not a SF anymore. So you want to pay him say $25 million when we have Sabonis? I'd rather bring back Thad Young on a declining contract starting at $12 million. I know he wants a long term deal and we know he is good defender. I see him moving to the 2nd unit and Damos starting next year.

Middleton could be a good signing if he's in the $20-22 million range for 4 yrs I'd rather make it 3 but with the money that will be flying around who knows what crazy offers he will get.

I think I said before that I'd use the cap space to take on a contract or 2 and get paid to do it. There will be teams who need to create some space to go after those high priced guys and we could benefit by it.

I'd give Kemba max money. I would not give the other two max money.

Though, I really like the idea of Harris here.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#56 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:43 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:There are no Rodney Stuckey's, Chase Budingers, or Jordan Hills on this team.


As much as they all sucked (and as much as I hated Budinger as a player), I don't think 9-10th men were or ever will be the difference in making money or getting fans to attend. I mean, no one is saying they don't want to support the team because the volleyball player who has no concept of how to play basketball is sitting on the bench and rarely plays right?

Though I do agree with your overall point, those teams were not very fun to watch in general. Some of that likely had to do with Vogel's coaching style though.


When your 9th and 10th guy cost you $7 million a year it's not good, and that was 3 yrs ago. I liked Stuckey but he couldn't stay healthy. But my main point was if you have the kind of depth we have now You're gonna be a better team. When guys get hurt and you can turn to a better quality back up.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#57 » by boomershadow » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:45 pm

I don't think we HAVE to make an obviously all-in move this off season, like the Kawhi or Butler trade were for their teams, or else the off season is a failure.

I know there are some people who will view it as such, and those were super sexy moves that generated a lot of media buzz, but we have yet to really see how those moves are going to pan out for their teams in the long or short term.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#58 » by Wizop » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:59 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#59 » by pacers70 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:05 pm

Right now, the most important thing the Pacers need to do is be patient. We have seen some very good improvement from Turner and Sabonis.

We still have a lot of young players that we need to see how or if they develop. Here is a list with the ages of players that we have under contract:

Ike (20)...reports are that he is learning and improving in Fort Wayne.
Leaf (21)...has cracked the rotation in the past few games
Holiday (22)...rookie
Johnson (22)...rookie
Sumner (23)….his first pro season being healthy.

That does not include Turner and Sabonis who are both 22 years old.

Turner has been playing like an all-star lately. Sabonis' per 36 has been all-star level all season. Multiple sources including Pritchard and Collison have stated that Holiday has the potential to be an all-star.

I think we have the talent, we just need to be patient and let it continue to develop.

Having said all of that, if a proven all-star becomes available via trade or free agency, we should certainly take a look at him.
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Re: I worry that the Pacers will sell out and keep everybody this summer 

Post#60 » by Topofthekey » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:04 pm

Someone mentioned in this thread the business aspect of the team

I fully agree that owning an NBA franchise is a business venture, and as a general rule of thumb, business ventures have one primary goal: to be profitable (otherwise it'd be known as a charity, or a hobby)

Having said that, I think that most people understand that Pacers being a small market team just means that Pacers cannot afford to splurge and pay the luxury (and repeater) tax in order to chase a championship, nor can it exceed the salary cap just to field a terrible team that no one wants to watch, unlike the bigger (and richer) franchises

Now having said THAT, I don't think that's what people are calling for here

Instead, I think what most people are saying is, instead of paying players like Bogie, DC, and Tyreke a combined $33m in salary, why not pay that salary to one single player (or two) who is better than all of them?

Depth certainly isn't the issue here, as we have young players like Leaf, Holiday, and to an extent Alize and Sumner, who aren't getting much minutes

I know I'd MUCH rather pay, say, Kemba Walker $33m, rather than paying those three collectively

So while it's a good idea to keep in mind that the Pacers first and foremost need to be profitable (or at least not lose money), I don't think it's justification to not go after costly FAs like Kemba, Tobias Harris, Harrison Barnes, etc (I'm not necessarily saying we should sign them specifically, just examples)

Whether the Pacers could (or should) sign them or not is a different story, but just saying "nah, they're too expensive, Pacers can't risk bad contracts" is sort of missing the point


As for trades, there are some ideas thrown around in this thread already, but one that I'd really like to see is Bogie to the Pelicans for their FRP - they are on record saying they are looking to deal their FRP for SF help this season; Bogie is an SF, and Bogie certainly can help them this season

But I can hear it already - "oh but Pacers are 3rd in the standings!", or "why trade a starter of a winning team for a pick?!"

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