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2019 Off-Season Questions

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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#461 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 22, 2019 1:36 pm

Keith Pompey of The Philly Inquirer has listed Indy as a rumored suitor of Tobias Harris this off-season.

https://www.philly.com/sixers/tobias-harris-sixers-free-agency-nba-kings-mavericks-mavs-jazz-pacers-20190521.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true


Remember, we usually keep our cards close to our chest, but, this is a good idea to simply keep in mind of maybe where our line of thinking goes. Seems like shooting across the court, in this case the 4 spot, is possibly a focus.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#462 » by pacers33granger » Wed May 22, 2019 2:58 pm

I guess I wouldn't hate it if we got Tobias and were able to keep Bogie, but he's going to be an overpaid contract from day one. I'd expect Philly to be aggressive in resigning him given what they gave up for him.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#463 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 22, 2019 3:29 pm

pacers33granger wrote:I guess I wouldn't hate it if we got Tobias and were able to keep Bogie, but he's going to be an overpaid contract from day one. I'd expect Philly to be aggressive in resigning him given what they gave up for him.


Yeah, Pompey mentions that it's likely a matter of Philly having to offer the full 5 year max, while the other competitors would offer the full 4 year max. He mentioned that Tobias also valued chemistry, which is why the Nets and Pacers, and lesser so the Jazz, stand out on that list, and that he might take one less year to be in a "better environment". Apparently, Philly's locker room was fine, but nothing special.

As for Tobias and a max? I think it's market value for a player like him. He's not a superstar in anything in particular, but he's just simply good at a lot of things, and not really bad at any one thing in particular. Plus, at age 26, and, though he's really a pure 4 now, his ability to also step up and play the 3 or 5 on occasion is a huge bonus, too. I could live with it. If we had a choice on a max, I think I'd rather a pure wing type of guy and the flexibility that provides, but I doubt we have a choice on a whom we sign to a max, moreso just hope that one max quality player would sign with us?
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#464 » by Tom White » Wed May 22, 2019 4:41 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
As for Tobias and a max? I think it's market value for a player like him.


These are numbers I've read somewhere: 5yrs. = $151M = $30.2M per yr ave. or 4yrs. = $141M = $35.2 per yr ave.

Those kind of numbers scare the !#$%$#% out of me! You could likely say I'm out of touch with what the market is these days, but that doesn't matter. Those numbers are still scary! :lol:
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#465 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 22, 2019 4:51 pm

Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
As for Tobias and a max? I think it's market value for a player like him.


These are numbers I've read somewhere: 5yrs. = $151M = $30.2M per yr ave. or 4yrs. = $141M = $35.2 per yr ave.

Those kind of numbers scare the !#$%$#% out of me! You could likely say I'm out of touch with what the market is these days, but that doesn't matter. Those numbers are still scary! :lol:


5 yrs is $188m for a max contract at $37.6m per.

And yeah, those are scary numbers, but their just a percentage equivalent to the rise in cap. In theory, and in terms of percentage of cap, it's roughly the same as when we paid Paul George $17m in 2015-16. We paid him 27.5% of the cap then in the first year of that new deal, and Tobias would be getting 30% of the cap in this max deal. The numbers are larger because the pie is larger, but the slices are relatively the same. It definitely takes some time getting used to, though.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#466 » by Tom White » Wed May 22, 2019 5:03 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:5 yrs is $188m for a max contract at $37.6m per.


You have no idea how good it is that I was sitting down when reading that. Got any extra "smelling salts"?

And yeah, those are scary numbers, but their just a percentage equivalent to the rise in cap. In theory, and in terms of percentage of cap, it's roughly the same as when we paid Paul George $17m in 2015-16. We paid him 27.5% of the cap then in the first year of that new deal, and Tobias would be getting 30% of the cap in this max deal. The numbers are larger because the pie is larger, but the slices are relatively the same. It definitely takes some time getting used to, though.


Oh, I get all that. It still just amazes me what has happened to salaries in the league over the years. That isn't just a pie. That's a pie a la mode!
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#467 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 22, 2019 8:48 pm

Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
As for Tobias and a max? I think it's market value for a player like him.


These are numbers I've read somewhere: 5yrs. = $151M = $30.2M per yr ave. or 4yrs. = $141M = $35.2 per yr ave.

Those kind of numbers scare the !#$%$#% out of me! You could likely say I'm out of touch with what the market is these days, but that doesn't matter. Those numbers are still scary! :lol:


Gives me the Heebee Geebee's!

I can't see why any team would give a guy $34 million a year just so they can say they have a Max contract on their team. Giving a Max contract to a 2nd tier player is a bad idea.

I say we go conservative renounce everyone except Bogie, tell Thad we want you back on a long term deal at the right price. Then I'd offer Brogdon $20 million or so for 4 years or offer about $26-27 million to Russell. I'd also look to eat a contract from some team or teams to get them out of the tax and get paid off in draft picks.

I know Portland is gonna want to get under the tax. After Myers Leonards play in games 3 and 4 of the West Semi's he's probably not going anywhere. They will look to move Evan Turner. I know he was here and it didn't work out well for him or us. But could we take him for the Blazers #1 pick? I've always thought he should be a point guard in the NBA. One year at $18.6 million and get a #1 pick (#25 over all).

Several teams have some serious tax problems going into the 2019 free agency period. OKC, Portland, Cleveland, others like Miami, Minnesota and Washington have over paid players clogging up their cap and limiting them. I'm not saying we should take a John Wall or Andrew Wiggins. What about Jordan Clarkson and #26? What about a swap of picks #18 for Ian Manhinmi and #9? Dieng and #11 plus a future pickswap for #18? I'm betting that OKC would pay up to unload Schoeder, but would we take him? Has Schoeder rehabbed his game and reputation enough for us to have for 2 years while Holiday develops?

Is KP going back to his wheeler dealer days? We've got 29 days and 14 hours till the draft then it's July 1st and FA begins.

Going after Brogdon would make the Bucks either pay him or let him go. Likely they would pay him and then be an in the tax team.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#468 » by granger05 » Wed May 22, 2019 8:54 pm

There's a trade thread on DAL dumping THJ. I suggested McDermott for THJ plus Justin Jackson and at least one Dallas fan is on board.

That would give us two useable wings for 20 million while cutting 7 million. I think we'd end up paying to fill those spots anyway. It would leave us with a roster better suited to spending big on a guy like Kemba if we could get him.

They're both OK shooters with poor defense, but we've done well with that type of player recently.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#469 » by winter_mute_13 » Wed May 22, 2019 9:09 pm

Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:5 yrs is $188m for a max contract at $37.6m per.


You have no idea how good it is that I was sitting down when reading that. Got any extra "smelling salts"?


Well, if it makes you feel better, Pacers will be limited to making a 4 year offer, so if Tobes signs here, his contract will "only" be 4 years $141m at most... a total bargain :D

I've just asked for a stretch 4 in this very thread, so ok, I'd be fine with this if it happens. Philly has the advantage of course, but they also need to pay Jimmy Butler, so maybe they won't offer the full max to Harris.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#470 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 22, 2019 9:21 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
As for Tobias and a max? I think it's market value for a player like him.


These are numbers I've read somewhere: 5yrs. = $151M = $30.2M per yr ave. or 4yrs. = $141M = $35.2 per yr ave.

Those kind of numbers scare the !#$%$#% out of me! You could likely say I'm out of touch with what the market is these days, but that doesn't matter. Those numbers are still scary! :lol:


5 yrs is $188m for a max contract at $37.6m per.

And yeah, those are scary numbers, but their just a percentage equivalent to the rise in cap. In theory, and in terms of percentage of cap, it's roughly the same as when we paid Paul George $17m in 2015-16. We paid him 27.5% of the cap then in the first year of that new deal, and Tobias would be getting 30% of the cap in this max deal. The numbers are larger because the pie is larger, but the slices are relatively the same. It definitely takes some time getting used to, though.



There is no way I want to give a Toby Harris or Middleton that kind of money. Philly is headed into a tax nightmare with their "Big 4" Embiid, Harris, Butler and Simmons, that is a great sounding team and if they stay healthy should be a contender. But that's $130 to $140 million for 4 guys. They will be paying tax and then the repeater tax. We stay under the tax and we'll get a nice check from the NBA.

I believe it's possible to build a winning team without paying tax. It takes great coaching, and vision from the management. The 2013-14 Pacers were a team no one saw coming, that team was defensive juggernaut. Could we get back to that? Turner is a DPOY candidate, he lead the NBA in Blocks, Victor is fine defender when he gets back. Can we put together a team of guys that win by stifling the other teams offense? Could we find 7 or 8 guys who can lock it down? Now stopping Embiid or Giannis may not be fully doable every time you play them, but stopping Butler or Middleton is.

Who are some lock down defenders we could get?
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#471 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 22, 2019 9:30 pm

granger05 wrote:There's a trade thread on DAL dumping THJ. I suggested McDermott for THJ plus Justin Jackson and at least one Dallas fan is on board.

That would give us two useable wings for 20 million while cutting 7 million. I think we'd end up paying to fill those spots anyway. It would leave us with a roster better suited to spending big on a guy like Kemba if we could get him.

They're both OK shooters with poor defense, but we've done well with that type of player recently.


Dallas liked Doug when they had him and I heard they wanted him back, at least some of the Dallas fans here wanted him. I don't like THJ, Jackson I'm indifferent on him. I do like Brunson, not sure if he's enough to get me to take THJ.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#472 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 22, 2019 9:38 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Tom White wrote:
These are numbers I've read somewhere: 5yrs. = $151M = $30.2M per yr ave. or 4yrs. = $141M = $35.2 per yr ave.

Those kind of numbers scare the !#$%$#% out of me! You could likely say I'm out of touch with what the market is these days, but that doesn't matter. Those numbers are still scary! :lol:


5 yrs is $188m for a max contract at $37.6m per.

And yeah, those are scary numbers, but their just a percentage equivalent to the rise in cap. In theory, and in terms of percentage of cap, it's roughly the same as when we paid Paul George $17m in 2015-16. We paid him 27.5% of the cap then in the first year of that new deal, and Tobias would be getting 30% of the cap in this max deal. The numbers are larger because the pie is larger, but the slices are relatively the same. It definitely takes some time getting used to, though.



There is no way I want to give a Toby Harris or Middleton that kind of money. Philly is headed into a tax nightmare with their "Big 4" Embiid, Harris, Butler and Simmons, that is a great sounding team and if they stay healthy should be a contender. But that's $130 to $140 million for 4 guys. They will be paying tax and then the repeater tax. We stay under the tax and we'll get a nice check from the NBA.

I believe it's possible to build a winning team without paying tax. It takes great coaching, and vision from the management. The 2013-14 Pacers were a team no one saw coming, that team was defensive juggernaut. Could we get back to that? Turner is a DPOY candidate, he lead the NBA in Blocks, Victor is fine defender when he gets back. Can we put together a team of guys that win by stifling the other teams offense? Could we find 7 or 8 guys who can lock it down? Now stopping Embiid or Giannis may not be fully doable every time you play them, but stopping Butler or Middleton is.

Who are some lock down defenders we could get?


Cory Joseph and Thad Young?

There are lockdown defenders out there. That’s kind of the game plan we’ve run for the last, well, long time. At a certain point, we haven’t had enough offense as the lock down defenders who can also score don’t change teams.

And no one here is suggesting we pay Tax. We can win without paying the tax. And if we spend our $45m in any way, shape, or form without it all being on one year contracts, we’ll be in the exact same boat whether or not you spend it all on a max and then minimum guys, or whether we eat Hardaways 2 year deal and spend another part on Brogdon.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#473 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 22, 2019 9:39 pm

granger05 wrote:There's a trade thread on DAL dumping THJ. I suggested McDermott for THJ plus Justin Jackson and at least one Dallas fan is on board.

That would give us two useable wings for 20 million while cutting 7 million. I think we'd end up paying to fill those spots anyway. It would leave us with a roster better suited to spending big on a guy like Kemba if we could get him.

They're both OK shooters with poor defense, but we've done well with that type of player recently.


Please no. Hardaway is a high volume, low efficiency shooter who doesn’t provide anything elsewhere (defense, playmaking, distributing, etc). I’d rather we just play Doug at SG off the bench, and get more efficient play for 1/3 the cost.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#474 » by granger05 » Wed May 22, 2019 9:46 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:Dallas liked Doug when they had him and I heard they wanted him back, at least some of the Dallas fans here wanted him. I don't like THJ, Jackson I'm indifferent on him. I do like Brunson, not sure if he's enough to get me to take THJ.


I like Brunson better too, but I think with our roster Jackson makes more sense. We've already got Holiday as a young guard and I wouldn't want to have he and Brunson playing all the PG minutes. I think a young wing makes more sense and we can resign whichever of Joseph/Collison is cheaper to be a steady hand. I just think a move like this would fill up our roster spots to allow for us losing current starters to FA. I don't want to just resign Boogie and Thad for more money without getting anybody else. I like them both, but that would be a bummer offseason to me.

THJ has a bad contract, but with the cap rising, it's the kind of contract that looks less bad every year especially as it nears expiring. I think using cap room to get a younger guy is a better use than overspending on an FA. That isn't to say that this specific move is the best young guy we could get for cap space, but it's one possibility.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#475 » by granger05 » Wed May 22, 2019 9:54 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Please no. Hardaway is a high volume, low efficiency shooter who doesn’t provide anything elsewhere (defense, playmaking, distributing, etc). I’d rather we just play Doug at SG off the bench, and get more efficient play for 1/3 the cost.


I worry we're going to end up paying Boogie similar money over more years to hang onto him. Hardaway's efficiency is bad, but some of that may be the environments he's been in. He's more of an unknown than a returning Bojan, but we cut Doug's salary and also bring in a recent 15th overall pick still on his rookie deal who can also shoot a bit.

I'm kind of banking on our success with player development. When we signed Collison and Bogdanovic, their contracts didn't look amazing but they played really well for us. I think we should recognize that guys are replaceable rather than making the mistake of paying the same players more money to keep them around.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#476 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 22, 2019 10:02 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
5 yrs is $188m for a max contract at $37.6m per.

And yeah, those are scary numbers, but their just a percentage equivalent to the rise in cap. In theory, and in terms of percentage of cap, it's roughly the same as when we paid Paul George $17m in 2015-16. We paid him 27.5% of the cap then in the first year of that new deal, and Tobias would be getting 30% of the cap in this max deal. The numbers are larger because the pie is larger, but the slices are relatively the same. It definitely takes some time getting used to, though.



There is no way I want to give a Toby Harris or Middleton that kind of money. Philly is headed into a tax nightmare with their "Big 4" Embiid, Harris, Butler and Simmons, that is a great sounding team and if they stay healthy should be a contender. But that's $130 to $140 million for 4 guys. They will be paying tax and then the repeater tax. We stay under the tax and we'll get a nice check from the NBA.

I believe it's possible to build a winning team without paying tax. It takes great coaching, and vision from the management. The 2013-14 Pacers were a team no one saw coming, that team was defensive juggernaut. Could we get back to that? Turner is a DPOY candidate, he lead the NBA in Blocks, Victor is fine defender when he gets back. Can we put together a team of guys that win by stifling the other teams offense? Could we find 7 or 8 guys who can lock it down? Now stopping Embiid or Giannis may not be fully doable every time you play them, but stopping Butler or Middleton is.

Who are some lock down defenders we could get?


Cory Joseph and Thad Young?

There are lockdown defenders out there. That’s kind of the game plan we’ve run for the last, well, long time. At a certain point, we haven’t had enough offense as the lock down defenders who can also score don’t change teams.

And no one here is suggesting we pay Tax. We can win without paying the tax. And if we spend our $45m in any way, shape, or form without it all being on one year contracts, we’ll be in the exact same boat whether or not you spend it all on a max and then minimum guys, or whether we eat Hardaways 2 year deal and spend another part on Brogdon.


I'd be ok with bring back Cory and Thad on 3 yr deals say about $6-8 million for Cory and about $10 million for Thad, I want them to be the bench guys, the 6th and 7th man. I'm wanting to see Sabonis and Turner as the starters getting 25-27 minutes together. I think they could become great for us and a nightmare for other teams. IF they can't play together then one will have to be traded. I can't see trading Turner unless it's a Godfather deal, you know, "an offer you can't refuse."

As to the question of the Tax. We've got guys here in this thread saying they want Kemba Walker, and Toby Harris or Middleton. I like Middleton but not at $34 million. Say we sign one of these guys, what then? What happens when we have to extend Sabonis? Do we then have to trade him because it puts us in the tax to give him a deal like Turners? I keep going back to the days of Jonathon Bender, and Brad Miller. We were loaded with guys and thought to be a contender.

The team gave a big contract to Bender and then had to trade Miller because of money. As I recall we got next to nothing out of Miller. He went to the Kings and had a nice career. And Bender flopped. We lost Miller in an S&T deal where we got Scott Pollard and the ghost of Danny Ferry. While signing with the Kings, Miller stated, "I wanted to stay with Indiana but my agent said that the money I could make with Sacramento was just too good to pass up and I would never get this kind of contract again." (Quote from Wikipedia.)

I'm still ticked off at that whole thing.

I'm closer of Harris or Middleton than I am on Kemba. I think it's really a moot point because we're not getting any of them.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#477 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 22, 2019 10:07 pm

granger05 wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:Dallas liked Doug when they had him and I heard they wanted him back, at least some of the Dallas fans here wanted him. I don't like THJ, Jackson I'm indifferent on him. I do like Brunson, not sure if he's enough to get me to take THJ.


I like Brunson better too, but I think with our roster Jackson makes more sense. We've already got Holiday as a young guard and I wouldn't want to have he and Brunson playing all the PG minutes. I think a young wing makes more sense and we can resign whichever of Joseph/Collison is cheaper to be a steady hand. I just think a move like this would fill up our roster spots to allow for us losing current starters to FA. I don't want to just resign Boogie and Thad for more money without getting anybody else. I like them both, but that would be a bummer off season to me.

THJ has a bad contract, but with the cap rising, it's the kind of contract that looks less bad every year especially as it nears expiring. I think using cap room to get a younger guy is a better use than overspending on an FA. That isn't to say that this specific move is the best young guy we could get for cap space, but it's one possibility.


I'd rather take Courtney Lee and get Jackson for Doug than take THJ, he's just not very good. If you just look at him scoring 17-18 points a game he looks ok, but bad shooting and nearly nothing in assists and rebounds, not to mention zero of defense. He's a guy who will put up 22 points on a bad team, I don't want him at all.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#478 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 22, 2019 10:15 pm

granger05 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Please no. Hardaway is a high volume, low efficiency shooter who doesn’t provide anything elsewhere (defense, playmaking, distributing, etc). I’d rather we just play Doug at SG off the bench, and get more efficient play for 1/3 the cost.


I worry we're going to end up paying Boogie similar money over more years to hang onto him. Hardaway's efficiency is bad, but some of that may be the environments he's been in. He's more of an unknown than a returning Bojan, but we cut Doug's salary and also bring in a recent 15th overall pick still on his rookie deal who can also shoot a bit.

I'm kind of banking on our success with player development. When we signed Collison and Bogdanovic, their contracts didn't look amazing but they played really well for us. I think we should recognize that guys are replaceable rather than making the mistake of paying the same players more money to keep them around.


I'm sorry but you want to let Bogdanovic go and replace him with THJ? There is no question Bogie is a better player. THJ will make $18.15 million and has a 15% trade kicker, that's another $2.8 million making him cost us about $21 million. I believe we can get Bogie back for $16-17 million for 3 years. No question which way I'm going.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#479 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 22, 2019 11:59 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
granger05 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Please no. Hardaway is a high volume, low efficiency shooter who doesn’t provide anything elsewhere (defense, playmaking, distributing, etc). I’d rather we just play Doug at SG off the bench, and get more efficient play for 1/3 the cost.


I worry we're going to end up paying Boogie similar money over more years to hang onto him. Hardaway's efficiency is bad, but some of that may be the environments he's been in. He's more of an unknown than a returning Bojan, but we cut Doug's salary and also bring in a recent 15th overall pick still on his rookie deal who can also shoot a bit.

I'm kind of banking on our success with player development. When we signed Collison and Bogdanovic, their contracts didn't look amazing but they played really well for us. I think we should recognize that guys are replaceable rather than making the mistake of paying the same players more money to keep them around.


I'm sorry but you want to let Bogdanovic go and replace him with THJ? There is no question Bogie is a better player. THJ will make $18.15 million and has a 15% trade kicker, that's another $2.8 million making him cost us about $21 million. I believe we can get Bogie back for $16-17 million for 3 years. No question which way I'm going.


The team that traded away a player with a trade kicker pays the trade kicker, but the cap number would hit our books in terms of salary cap and luxury tax.

I just don’t want to pay a pure two guard $20m to back up our best player. I can see Dom and Myles playing together. I can’t see ways to get Hardaway and Vic on court together.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#480 » by Tom White » Thu May 23, 2019 12:29 am

basketballwacko2 wrote:The team gave a big contract to Bender and then had to trade Miller because of money.


Bender was another incredible blunder for the team. Every step of the way from drafting him to paying him he was never worth the draft position or the salary. He always had a deer-in-the-headlights look out on the court.

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