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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:34 am
by basketballwacko2
Tom White wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:The team gave a big contract to Bender and then had to trade Miller because of money.


Bender was another incredible blunder for the team. Every step of the way from drafting him to paying him he was never worth the draft position or the salary. He always had a deer-in-the-headlights look out on the court.


Bender came in with all kinds of hype, he was supposed to be the next Kevin Garnett, What happened with him was that he grew too fast and his bones couldn't take it. We should have known that if he was examined before the draft. We traded Antonio Davis for the pick to take him. That was a waste and then to pay him rather than taking care of Brad Miller was just dumb.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:07 am
by Wizop
Tom White wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:The team gave a big contract to Bender and then had to trade Miller because of money.


Bender was another incredible blunder for the team. Every step of the way from drafting him to paying him he was never worth the draft position or the salary. He always had a deer-in-the-headlights look out on the court.
Bender only had a handful of healthy games. If only ...

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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:08 pm
by Scoot McGroot
granger05 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Please no. Hardaway is a high volume, low efficiency shooter who doesn’t provide anything elsewhere (defense, playmaking, distributing, etc). I’d rather we just play Doug at SG off the bench, and get more efficient play for 1/3 the cost.


I worry we're going to end up paying Boogie similar money over more years to hang onto him. Hardaway's efficiency is bad, but some of that may be the environments he's been in. He's more of an unknown than a returning Bojan, but we cut Doug's salary and also bring in a recent 15th overall pick still on his rookie deal who can also shoot a bit.

I'm kind of banking on our success with player development. When we signed Collison and Bogdanovic, their contracts didn't look amazing but they played really well for us. I think we should recognize that guys are replaceable rather than making the mistake of paying the same players more money to keep them around.



I'd gladly pay Bojan the max we could pay him ($18.375m) rather than trade a usable bench piece for an offense killer like Tim Hardaway. I could play Bojan with anyone on the roster, whereas Tim cannot be played with our best player, Victor Oladipo, since neither can play SF, and neither should be a pure PG.

If Justin Jackson is the guy you want, just target him with 2 2nd rounders. You could probably get him for close to that, rather than paying someone almost $40m to hurt your offense, and play no defense.

Tim Hardaway is one of the worst contracts right now, in terms of playability. Sure, Wall, Wiggins, etc, are worse in terms of size, but Hardaway is up there. If you acquire him, you just have to make sure you get paid off properly. The problem is that Dallas can't trade a 1st until 2025, and their most valuable trade pieces are Brunson (I'd really rather not bring in a "comparable" young PG on a rookie contract and have the two of them trying to bury the other), and Jackson (just not worth a top 20 pick, maybe not worth a 1st right now...think of him close to TJ Leaf).

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 3:03 pm
by Great

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 3:10 pm
by Great

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 4:24 pm
by Great
Acquiring Nic Batum gives the Pacers a legit defensive starting SF.

Veteran stability also.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 6:25 pm
by Wizop
Tom White wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:The team gave a big contract to Bender and then had to trade Miller because of money.


Bender was another incredible blunder for the team. Every step of the way from drafting him to paying him he was never worth the draft position or the salary. He always had a deer-in-the-headlights look out on the court.


I can't agree with "incredible" or "blunder." on draft day the choice was very reasonable. with hindsight it was a very unfortunate choice. incredible means hard to believe. blunder means a mistake. unfortunate means unlucky. now if we could turn back time, we'd do something different. as Bill Polian always quoted Marv Levy as saying, if what you did didn't work out, you should have done the other thing.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 6:29 pm
by pacers33granger
Wizop wrote:
Tom White wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:The team gave a big contract to Bender and then had to trade Miller because of money.


Bender was another incredible blunder for the team. Every step of the way from drafting him to paying him he was never worth the draft position or the salary. He always had a deer-in-the-headlights look out on the court.


I can't agree with "incredible" or "blunder." on draft day the choice was very reasonable. with hindsight it was a very unfortunate choice. incredible means hard to believe. blunder means a mistake. unfortunate means unlucky. now if we could turn back time, we'd do something different. as Bill Polian always quoted Marv Levy as saying, if what you did didn't work out, you should have done the other thing.


Agree 100%. It didn't work out for a variety of reasons, but in the moment you take that gamble every time. What makes it hurt more though is the first four picks were Brand, Francis, Davis, and Odom and the next picks after Bender were Szcerbiak, Hamilton, Andre Miller, Marion, and Terry. Just so happened we got the one guy whose career never took off and was sandwiched by 10 good to great players.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 6:46 pm
by Tom White
Wizop wrote:
Tom White wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:The team gave a big contract to Bender and then had to trade Miller because of money.


Bender was another incredible blunder for the team. Every step of the way from drafting him to paying him he was never worth the draft position or the salary. He always had a deer-in-the-headlights look out on the court.


I can't agree with "incredible" or "blunder." on draft day the choice was very reasonable. with hindsight it was a very unfortunate choice. incredible means hard to believe. blunder means a mistake. unfortunate means unlucky. now if we could turn back time, we'd do something different. as Bill Polian always quoted Marv Levy as saying, if what you did didn't work out, you should have done the other thing.


If memory serves me, the only scouting done on him was watching one game tape. They really dropped the ball on that end. They spent a fifth spot draft pick without doing their full research on the player. Not to mention they gave up Anthony Davis (who was a terrific sixth man for the Pacers and could have started on many teams) while doing this. I still stand by my description of him as being a deer-in-the-headlights player on the floor. He appeared lost often.

I am by no means blaming Bender. He tried. He had physical problems which a more thorough vetting would have disclosed. For cryin' out loud, he had bone-on-bone knees. That is fully on the team.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 7:14 pm
by Scoot McGroot
Great wrote:Acquiring Nic Batum gives the Pacers a legit defensive starting SF.

Veteran stability also.


Nic has been a replacement level defender for 5 seasons now. And he’s paid too much to acquire and produces WELL less than he’s paid for. No thank you.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:55 pm
by Wizop
Tom White wrote:I am by no means blaming Bender. He tried. He had physical problems which a more thorough vetting would have disclosed. For cryin' out loud, he had bone-on-bone knees. That is fully on the team.


I have no idea what scouting was done or when the problem developed. I do remember him having a spectacular half coming back from an injury only to have everything go bad again. I think it could have been against the Kings but I've slept since then.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 11:37 pm
by Topofthekey
So, Nets want to pair De'angelo Russell with Kyrie Irving

Does that make Caris Levert or Spencer Dinwiddie available?

I'd love to give Dinwiddie a shot at becoming our starting PG, but as usual the problem is what do we have that Nets would want for him

I won't give Myles or Domas for him, but other than them, I don't see the Nets being interested in anything else we have. Maybe a S&T involving Bogie? Bogie would be an upgrade for them over Carroll I think, but if that's the case they'd be better off just signing Bogie themselves if they have the cap space for it

Oh well

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 1:41 am
by Scoot McGroot
Topofthekey wrote:So, Nets want to pair De'angelo Russell with Kyrie Irving

Does that make Caris Levert or Spencer Dinwiddie available?

I'd love to give Dinwiddie a shot at becoming our starting PG, but as usual the problem is what do we have that Nets would want for him

I won't give Myles or Domas for him, but other than them, I don't see the Nets being interested in anything else we have. Maybe a S&T involving Bogie? Bogie would be an upgrade for them over Carroll I think, but if that's the case they'd be better off just signing Bogie themselves if they have the cap space for it

Oh well


Definitely not Levert. He’s a solid talent you find time for. He’s kind of like their Domas in that situation. Too talented to deal just because he plays a similar position.

As for Dinwiddie, maybe they deal him down the line, but they need 4 guards, and this way, they’d have 4 good ones. Or they might deal him ASAP if they have another max guy wanting to come to town. But, to me, he’s like the next generation of Collison or George Hill. He’s almost too good to be a backup PG, but somehow, if he’s your starter, you’re always looking for an upgrade. He screams 3rd guard to me, not necessarily in a bad way, though.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:20 am
by basketballwacko2
Great wrote:Acquiring Nic Batum gives the Pacers a legit defensive starting SF.

Veteran stability also.


And one of the worst contracts in the NBA. Dude is massively over paid.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 12:36 pm
by Wizop
I really am starting to like this draft. lots of interesting names mocked from 18 to 25. plus, I think there's a high likelihood of draft day trading. perhaps though those notions are inconsistent.

the big unknown is Vic. Tyreke is history and Matthews is unlikely to return. if Vic isn't a starter on day one or is on a pitch count, the only options on the current roster are Doug and Sumner. oh, a resigned CoJo starting alongside Holiday (or DC) would also be an option. the one certainty is that we won't take a pass on the season.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:09 pm
by pacers70
Wizop wrote:I really am starting to like this draft. lots of interesting names mocked from 18 to 25. plus, I think there's a high likelihood of draft day trading. perhaps though those notions are inconsistent.

the big unknown is Vic. Tyreke is history and Matthews is unlikely to return. if Vic isn't a starter on day one or is on a pitch count, the only options on the current roster are Doug and Sumner. oh, a resigned CoJo starting alongside Holiday (or DC) would also be an option. the one certainty is that we won't take a pass on the season.


We could also sign a low cost veteran to fill in as a starter until Vic returns and then slide him back to the bench. I wouldn’t be surprised to see us sign Justin Holiday.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:38 pm
by Wizop
pacers70 wrote:We could also sign a low cost veteran to fill in as a starter until Vic returns and then slide him back to the bench.


I think we have to unless we're going to tank. but if Bogie turns out to be out of our budget, we could spend a little more money on someone who could play 2 while Vic is on a pitch count and move to 3 ahead of Doug later. we could also bring back CoJo as a 2.

the other possibility is that Sumner is ready. I have high hopes for him.

pacers70 wrote:I wouldn’t be surprised to see us sign Justin Holiday.


I'm all for cornering the market on Holidays. Quinn Cook is another guard who'd probably be happy coming here if the Warriors won't exceed the minimum.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 4:26 pm
by dipodenis
Jeremy Lamb is intriguing as a backup wing.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 6:38 pm
by pacers70
dipodenis wrote:Jeremy Lamb is intriguing as a backup wing.


I think Lamb will be out of our price range as a backup, especially if we are successful at signing a higher profile free agent like Kemba, Tobias or D’Angelo.

Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 8:15 pm
by Topofthekey
What do we think of this

Wiggins + Covington + Saric
for
Leaf + Doug + #18

Taking on Wiggins is obviously a huge risk, but that's what the Covington>Doug and Saric>Leaf part of the trade is for

We'll let Bogie walk since Covington is an upgrade, and Saric fits the stretch 4 type that the team is looking for

I haven't looked at the money side of it, but I think if the team renounces everyone except Alize and Sumner, there may still be enough money to sign a cheap-ish option at PG, like Elfrid Payton?