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2019 Off-Season Questions

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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#501 » by Wizop » Mon May 27, 2019 8:53 pm

pacers70 wrote:
dipodenis wrote:Jeremy Lamb is intriguing as a backup wing.


I think Lamb will be out of our price range as a backup, especially if we are successful at signing a higher profile free agent like Kemba, Tobias or D’Angelo.


I think Kemba and Tobias are out of our price range. not sure what Lamb and Russell will get.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#502 » by pacers70 » Mon May 27, 2019 10:47 pm

Wizop wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
dipodenis wrote:Jeremy Lamb is intriguing as a backup wing.


I think Lamb will be out of our price range as a backup, especially if we are successful at signing a higher profile free agent like Kemba, Tobias or D’Angelo.


I think Kemba and Tobias are out of our price range. not sure what Lamb and Russell will get.


I read where we will have $44 million in cap space. I don’t know if that includes our draft picks or not.

Kemba’s max is $32.7 million, Russell’s is $27.3 million.

If we sign Kemba or Tobias we’ll have $11.3 million left, if we still have to sign our draft picks, we will be down to about $8.1 million to find a starting SF or PG as the case may be.

If we sign Russell, those numbers change to $16.7 and $13.5 respectively. That does not take into consideration any trades we may make or players we may release to free up cap space.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#503 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon May 27, 2019 11:27 pm

pacers70 wrote:
Wizop wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
I think Lamb will be out of our price range as a backup, especially if we are successful at signing a higher profile free agent like Kemba, Tobias or D’Angelo.


I think Kemba and Tobias are out of our price range. not sure what Lamb and Russell will get.


I read where we will have $44 million in cap space. I don’t know if that includes our draft picks or not.

Kemba’s max is $32.7 million, Russell’s is $27.3 million.

If we sign Kemba or Tobias we’ll have $11.3 million left, if we still have to sign our draft picks, we will be down to about $8.1 million to find a starting SF or PG as the case may be.

If we sign Russell, those numbers change to $16.7 and $13.5 respectively. That does not take into consideration any trades we may make or players we may release to free up cap space.


If Charlotte is willing to offer Kemba the supermax, we won’t be able to afford him.

But it’s jot just what a max in the books does this year. What about the next year when Dom is a free agent too, and we have another 2-4 holes to fill with the MLE, etc.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#504 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon May 27, 2019 11:32 pm

Topofthekey wrote:What do we think of this

Wiggins + Covington + Saric
for
Leaf + Doug + #18

Taking on Wiggins is obviously a huge risk, but that's what the Covington>Doug and Saric>Leaf part of the trade is for

We'll let Bogie walk since Covington is an upgrade, and Saric fits the stretch 4 type that the team is looking for

I haven't looked at the money side of it, but I think if the team renounces everyone except Alize and Sumner, there may still be enough money to sign a cheap-ish option at PG, like Elfrid Payton?



It’s bold to pitch a trade on adding a $121m bad wing player to be your backup 3 as any sort of positive.

As for Saric, he provides some stretch offense, but he’s super slow. He’s essentially a 5 because of that now. He’s also a simply terrible defender.

I like the idea of getting a Covington. I could live with Saric, but I don’t see him as a fit with Myles/Dom. Adding Wiggins is simply a cap/franchise type killer though, and for a guy who simply doesn’t deserve it, and simply won’t work to earn it.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#505 » by pacers70 » Tue May 28, 2019 4:00 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
Wizop wrote:
I think Kemba and Tobias are out of our price range. not sure what Lamb and Russell will get.


I read where we will have $44 million in cap space. I don’t know if that includes our draft picks or not.

Kemba’s max is $32.7 million, Russell’s is $27.3 million.

If we sign Kemba or Tobias we’ll have $11.3 million left, if we still have to sign our draft picks, we will be down to about $8.1 million to find a starting SF or PG as the case may be.

If we sign Russell, those numbers change to $16.7 and $13.5 respectively. That does not take into consideration any trades we may make or players we may release to free up cap space.


If Charlotte is willing to offer Kemba the supermax, we won’t be able to afford him.

But it’s jot just what a max in the books does this year. What about the next year when Dom is a free agent too, and we have another 2-4 holes to fill with the MLE, etc.


It doesn't matter whether Charlotte offers Kemba the Super Max or not, the most we can offer him...or Tobias is $32.7 million the first year. It will be kind of tight, but I think we can afford that.

I am going to use figures from https://www.spotrac.com/nba/indiana-pacers/cap/2021/
I know these figures may not be completely accurate, but they are close and they break down salaries by player.

In the summer of 2021, when Vic is a free agent we will have Turner at $18 million, Holiday at $3.98 million and Ellis' contract of $2.245 million on the books. If we assume Sabonis will sign a contract similar to Turner we can add $18 million.

Here is the maximum salary scale. https://hoopshype.com/2018/10/21/nba-maximum-salary/

Kemba or Tobias would be making $36.54 million and I assume Vic would be at or near that amount.

With Turner/Sabonis/Kemba/Vic/Holiday and Ellis' contract we would be up to $115.305 million for 5 guys. We would still have our 2019; 2020 and 2021 first round draft picks under contract. That would be roughly $9-10 million. We would be at 8 guys and $125 million. The projected tax cap is $141 million. We would have $16 million to sign at least 4 more guys.

We would have to use exceptions and sign guys to the minimum salary. I'm not sure how that all would work out, but we do have the space under the tax to do sign Kemba or Tobias. It's up to Pritchard and the rest of the FO to figure out how to do it.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#506 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue May 28, 2019 9:06 pm

pacers70 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
I read where we will have $44 million in cap space. I don’t know if that includes our draft picks or not.

Kemba’s max is $32.7 million, Russell’s is $27.3 million.

If we sign Kemba or Tobias we’ll have $11.3 million left, if we still have to sign our draft picks, we will be down to about $8.1 million to find a starting SF or PG as the case may be.

If we sign Russell, those numbers change to $16.7 and $13.5 respectively. That does not take into consideration any trades we may make or players we may release to free up cap space.


If Charlotte is willing to offer Kemba the supermax, we won’t be able to afford him.

But it’s jot just what a max in the books does this year. What about the next year when Dom is a free agent too, and we have another 2-4 holes to fill with the MLE, etc.


It doesn't matter whether Charlotte offers Kemba the Super Max or not, the most we can offer him...or Tobias is $32.7 million the first year. It will be kind of tight, but I think we can afford that.

I am going to use figures from https://www.spotrac.com/nba/indiana-pacers/cap/2021/
I know these figures may not be completely accurate, but they are close and they break down salaries by player.

In the summer of 2021, when Vic is a free agent we will have Turner at $18 million, Holiday at $3.98 million and Ellis' contract of $2.245 million on the books. If we assume Sabonis will sign a contract similar to Turner we can add $18 million.

Here is the maximum salary scale. https://hoopshype.com/2018/10/21/nba-maximum-salary/

Kemba or Tobias would be making $36.54 million and I assume Vic would be at or near that amount.

With Turner/Sabonis/Kemba/Vic/Holiday and Ellis' contract we would be up to $115.305 million for 5 guys. We would still have our 2019; 2020 and 2021 first round draft picks under contract. That would be roughly $9-10 million. We would be at 8 guys and $125 million. The projected tax cap is $141 million. We would have $16 million to sign at least 4 more guys.

We would have to use exceptions and sign guys to the minimum salary. I'm not sure how that all would work out, but we do have the space under the tax to do sign Kemba or Tobias. It's up to Pritchard and the rest of the FO to figure out how to do it.



This year, absolutely. But, by next year, when you’re short a wing if Sumner doesn’t become a key rotation player? Have to use the full MLE. Now, add that $9m+ in and your $14m for 4 spots is awful tight. And you can’t use the MLE the year that 2021-22 year, or keep Leaf if he becomes something usable.

There’s risks each way.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#507 » by pacers70 » Wed May 29, 2019 1:55 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
If Charlotte is willing to offer Kemba the supermax, we won’t be able to afford him.

But it’s jot just what a max in the books does this year. What about the next year when Dom is a free agent too, and we have another 2-4 holes to fill with the MLE, etc.


It doesn't matter whether Charlotte offers Kemba the Super Max or not, the most we can offer him...or Tobias is $32.7 million the first year. It will be kind of tight, but I think we can afford that.

I am going to use figures from https://www.spotrac.com/nba/indiana-pacers/cap/2021/
I know these figures may not be completely accurate, but they are close and they break down salaries by player.

In the summer of 2021, when Vic is a free agent we will have Turner at $18 million, Holiday at $3.98 million and Ellis' contract of $2.245 million on the books. If we assume Sabonis will sign a contract similar to Turner we can add $18 million.

Here is the maximum salary scale. https://hoopshype.com/2018/10/21/nba-maximum-salary/

Kemba or Tobias would be making $36.54 million and I assume Vic would be at or near that amount.

With Turner/Sabonis/Kemba/Vic/Holiday and Ellis' contract we would be up to $115.305 million for 5 guys. We would still have our 2019; 2020 and 2021 first round draft picks under contract. That would be roughly $9-10 million. We would be at 8 guys and $125 million. The projected tax cap is $141 million. We would have $16 million to sign at least 4 more guys.

We would have to use exceptions and sign guys to the minimum salary. I'm not sure how that all would work out, but we do have the space under the tax to do sign Kemba or Tobias. It's up to Pritchard and the rest of the FO to figure out how to do it.



This year, absolutely. But, by next year, when you’re short a wing if Sumner doesn’t become a key rotation player? Have to use the full MLE. Now, add that $9m+ in and your $14m for 4 spots is awful tight. And you can’t use the MLE the year that 2021-22 year, or keep Leaf if he becomes something usable.

There’s risks each way.


There's no question that it will be tight, but Pritchard and the FO is getting paid to figure these things out.

The point I am trying to make is that it's possible to sign Tobias or Kemba. Pritchard just needs to decide whether or not he thinks it is worth the risk to pursue them.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#508 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 29, 2019 4:09 pm

pacers70 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
It doesn't matter whether Charlotte offers Kemba the Super Max or not, the most we can offer him...or Tobias is $32.7 million the first year. It will be kind of tight, but I think we can afford that.

I am going to use figures from https://www.spotrac.com/nba/indiana-pacers/cap/2021/
I know these figures may not be completely accurate, but they are close and they break down salaries by player.

In the summer of 2021, when Vic is a free agent we will have Turner at $18 million, Holiday at $3.98 million and Ellis' contract of $2.245 million on the books. If we assume Sabonis will sign a contract similar to Turner we can add $18 million.

Here is the maximum salary scale. https://hoopshype.com/2018/10/21/nba-maximum-salary/

Kemba or Tobias would be making $36.54 million and I assume Vic would be at or near that amount.

With Turner/Sabonis/Kemba/Vic/Holiday and Ellis' contract we would be up to $115.305 million for 5 guys. We would still have our 2019; 2020 and 2021 first round draft picks under contract. That would be roughly $9-10 million. We would be at 8 guys and $125 million. The projected tax cap is $141 million. We would have $16 million to sign at least 4 more guys.

We would have to use exceptions and sign guys to the minimum salary. I'm not sure how that all would work out, but we do have the space under the tax to do sign Kemba or Tobias. It's up to Pritchard and the rest of the FO to figure out how to do it.



This year, absolutely. But, by next year, when you’re short a wing if Sumner doesn’t become a key rotation player? Have to use the full MLE. Now, add that $9m+ in and your $14m for 4 spots is awful tight. And you can’t use the MLE the year that 2021-22 year, or keep Leaf if he becomes something usable.

There’s risks each way.


There's no question that it will be tight, but Pritchard and the FO is getting paid to figure these things out.

The point I am trying to make is that it's possible to sign Tobias or Kemba. Pritchard just needs to decide whether or not he thinks it is worth the risk to pursue them.



I think you and Wiz just have differing opinions on the word “afford”. Yes, we could fit them in under the salary cap and luxury tax, if we then skip the MLE a couple years and only sign minimum guys. No, we can’t afford to build out a full team with them. That’s, I think, where the breakdown lies.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#509 » by Wizop » Wed May 29, 2019 4:43 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:I think you and Wiz just have differing opinions on the word “afford”. Yes, we could fit them in under the salary cap and luxury tax, if we then skip the MLE a couple years and only sign minimum guys. No, we can’t afford to build out a full team with them. That’s, I think, where the breakdown lies.


listened to the RealGM podcast this am that includes Pacer summer options. they mention that Vic could be offered an extension now. he might not take the 24 or so he's eligible for but that certainly enters into the affordability question.

more basically though, I just don't see us following the 3 max contracts and a bunch of minimums roster strategy. I think we'll do more of a band of brothers with multiple players in the 8 to 15 range. I also think chemistry wise that it is Vic's team and we should avoid undercutting him by paying anyone more than he gets or will soon get.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#510 » by pacers33granger » Wed May 29, 2019 4:48 pm

dipodenis wrote:Jeremy Lamb is intriguing as a backup wing.


He seems likely to be overpaid. Like others have said, probably out of our price range and will likely want a starting role.

I know some might not like it, but our best option for a backup wing is probably Lance. He will likely come really cheap, knows the team, and is generally liked. I'd strongly prefer a few mil for him over an MLE level guy who won't be much better.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#511 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 29, 2019 6:47 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
dipodenis wrote:Jeremy Lamb is intriguing as a backup wing.


He seems likely to be overpaid. Like others have said, probably out of our price range and will likely want a starting role.

I know some might not like it, but our best option for a backup wing is probably Lance. He will likely come really cheap, knows the team, and is generally liked. I'd strongly prefer a few mil for him over an MLE level guy who won't be much better.


I think Lance would come cheapest, In terms of being able to handle 20-25 minutes a night, but I think he’d be a terrible option playing next to Aaron Holiday off the bench, if we think we can develop him as the backup 1. Lamb might be a good fit there next to Holiday, since he can play decently well off ball. Lamb has a weird tendency too of being his best playing between 20-29 minutes. It seems his shooting and efficiency plummets when he plays over 30 minutes, so he might be a decent option if we plan on the platoon style system going forward.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#512 » by pacers33granger » Wed May 29, 2019 6:54 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
dipodenis wrote:Jeremy Lamb is intriguing as a backup wing.


He seems likely to be overpaid. Like others have said, probably out of our price range and will likely want a starting role.

I know some might not like it, but our best option for a backup wing is probably Lance. He will likely come really cheap, knows the team, and is generally liked. I'd strongly prefer a few mil for him over an MLE level guy who won't be much better.


I think Lance would come cheapest, In terms of being able to handle 20-25 minutes a night, but I think he’d be a terrible option playing next to Aaron Holiday off the bench, if we think we can develop him as the backup 1. Lamb might be a good fit there next to Holiday, since he can play decently well off ball. Lamb has a weird tendency too of being his best playing between 20-29 minutes. It seems his shooting and efficiency plummets when he plays over 30 minutes, so he might be a decent option if we plan on the platoon style system going forward.


I'd expect Lamb to get offers above the full MLE, which I wouldn't be interested in matching, as well as starting roles. He's not big enough to play SF, so we simply can't offer him a starting role under any circumstance.

I wouldn't worry about Holiday and Lance coexisting. He played fine next to Tyreke who was worse off ball than Lance. Or it's not tough to stagger minutes. Plus my preference is to give Holiday the starting spot and have a vet backup (possibly DC) as I think he'd fit best with the starters, depending on what our bench looks like. We also had some modest success 2 years ago with Lance playing off Vic as the primary ballhandler at times, so it's not like Lance is a total nonfactor liability off ball, he's just not nearly as effective.

And I think we will be very hard pressed to find anyone who can run a two man game with Domas as well as Lance, even if we pay for it. He's not Chris Paul, but who else out there is a better option? No Lance might not be the greatest fit, but he's far and away our best shot at getting a rotation vet on the cheap and odds are we will need one or two cheap vets that we can rely on at least in spurts.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#513 » by pacers33granger » Wed May 29, 2019 6:55 pm

Really if we had kept Lance he would have been far and away our 2nd best bench player this season and it wouldn't have been particularly close.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#514 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 29, 2019 7:49 pm

pacers33granger wrote:Really if we had kept Lance he would have been far and away our 2nd best bench player this season and it wouldn't have been particularly close.


Doesn’t really say much, but I’m not super sure Lance had a great season, either. Always worries me when guys play more efficient by playing, and shooting, less.

I just don’t love the concept of Lance taking the ball out of Aaron’s, or Vic’s, hands to play his 1 on 5 hero ball.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#515 » by Wizop » Wed May 29, 2019 7:57 pm

before I brought Lance back, I'd offer Wesley similar money on a one year deal. he disappointed me last year, but at the right price I'd pay him to be Vic insurance.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#516 » by pacers33granger » Wed May 29, 2019 8:50 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:Really if we had kept Lance he would have been far and away our 2nd best bench player this season and it wouldn't have been particularly close.


Doesn’t really say much, but I’m not super sure Lance had a great season, either. Always worries me when guys play more efficient by playing, and shooting, less.

I just don’t love the concept of Lance taking the ball out of Aaron’s, or Vic’s, hands to play his 1 on 5 hero ball.


He had a bad season, which is why we should be able to get him cheap, but everyone on that team had a bad season. I don't think there could have been a worse on court fit for Lance if you really tried. I might still take LA Lance over the majority of our bench last year either way.

I think the problem comes down to the fact that our system is largely hero ball on offense. I'm not a fan of it whatsoever, but at least Lance passes and tries on defense. Truth be told, I'm suspect that the concept will be to give Holiday the ball off the bench and let him chuck (part of the reason I say just let him start).

I'm really not a huge proponent of Lance, but I do not see a better option out there unless we spread our space around, which I hate as an option. Would much rather have 1 Kemba and 4 vet min guys than 5 Dougs.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#517 » by Wizop » Fri May 31, 2019 2:54 am

Read on Twitter
?s=19

Sent from my phone.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#518 » by MUpacersSIC » Fri May 31, 2019 3:04 am

Wizop wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

Sent from my phone.


That tweet is from 2017. lol
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#519 » by Wizop » Fri May 31, 2019 3:32 am

MUpacersSIC wrote:
Wizop wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

Sent from my phone.


That tweet is from 2017. lol
really? showed up in my feed tonight. I'll look again to see why.

Sent from my phone.
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Re: 2019 Off-Season Questions 

Post#520 » by Wizop » Fri May 31, 2019 3:37 am

sorry about that. had one eye on Twitter and one on TV. Totally missed it was a retweet with a comment that we've come a long way in 2 years.

Sent from my phone.

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