Game Thread: 04/01/2019 Pacers v Pistons

[Tom White]

That's my opinion and not that of staff or management.

HA! You should make that your forum signature.

[boomershadow]

I'm not sure it was a "must" win, but I think keeping that losing streak going would've been pretty bad.

[Wizop]

I'm not sure it was a "must" win, but I think keeping that losing streak going would've been pretty bad.

if we want 4th, I'd call the next 2 games musts.

Sent from my phone.

[Pacers_Freak]

I'm not sure it was a "must" win, but I think keeping that losing streak going would've been pretty bad.

if we want 4th, I'd call the next 2 games musts.

Sent from my phone.

I mean of course we want 4th. I promise I'm not participation trophy guy, but with Dipo out I think everything this team accomplishes is just icing on top. Proud of them regardless of where they finish and how the playoff series turns out. I know Boston in a mess, but I don't feel confident about us beating them no matter who has homecourt. Nothing is a must this season in my eyes.


Good god the Freak has gone soft!

[pacers33granger]

I mean of course we want 4th. I promise I'm not participation trophy guy, but with Dipo out I think everything this team accomplishes is just icing on top.

The way the team has (generally) not stopped fighting likely pays dividends down the road too. If we had given up on the season, Bogie likely doesn't have interest in resigning and maybe not Thad. If we want a shot at a guy like Kemba, this season likely goes a long way in at least getting a look with how the entire organization has handled it top to bottom. It's what got us Matthews when legit contenders were trying to get him.

[Wizop]

I mean of course we want 4th. I promise I'm not participation trophy guy, but with Dipo out I think everything this team accomplishes is just icing on top.

The way the team has (generally) not stopped fighting likely pays dividends down the road too. If we had given up on the season, Bogie likely doesn't have interest in resigning and maybe not Thad. If we want a shot at a guy like Kemba, this season likely goes a long way in at least getting a look with how the entire organization has handled it top to bottom. It's what got us Matthews when legit contenders were trying to get him.

but we do not want a shot at Kemba. a max salary would totally screw us up. we want Vic, Bogie, Turner, and Sabonis. Holiday and McDermott stay. probably Young. how do you do that and Kemba too without paying tax?

Sent from my phone.

[Tom White]

If we want a shot at a guy like Kemba,

I know you said a guy "like" Kemba, but his contract is an example of what I meant in another thread when I suggested teams handing out contracts like his must have suffered temporary insanity. His team has all that money wrapped up in him, and what has it gotten them? Nothing. They are out of the playoffs, with a losing record, and less able to improve because of that salary.

We don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

[pacers33granger]

but we do not want a shot at Kemba. a max salary would totally screw us up. we want Vic, Bogie, Turner, and Sabonis. Holiday and McDermott stay. probably Young. how do you do that and Kemba too without paying tax?

Sent from my phone.

I'd have to run the numbers, but I'm pretty sure we can get Kemba if he takes slightly below max while keeping Bogie's cap hold. So ultimately we trade Thad and the MLE for Kemba, which is a trade we do everyday even though we all love Thad.

We couldn't even get to the tax this coming season if we wanted to given we'd need to use space to sign Kemba and the lux tax level is slated to be $143 mil in 20-21 when Domas needs a new deal. Just for quick easy math if we say Kemba is around $30 mil, we'd have close to $80 mil for Vic/Kemba/Myles/Domas/Doug then another $2.5 for Holiday and another $20 for Bogie. We can pay Domas $20 mil no problem and more if need be.

We'd only run into lux tax issues potentially when Vic needs a new deal, but that's 3 years down the line and a lot can be done before then.

I know you said a guy "like" Kemba, but his contract is an example of what I meant in another thread when I suggested teams handing out contracts like his must have suffered temporary insanity. His team has all that money wrapped up in him, and what has it gotten them? Nothing. They are out of the playoffs, with a losing record, and less able to improve because of that salary.

We don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

His team has been horribly mismanaged. They actually don't have much money wrapped up in him, yet. He's been paid $12 mil, which is insanely low for his production. Their problem is blown draft picks and bloated contracts to role players. If anything, the Hornets are an example in the opposite direction for why you don't want to overpay non-stars.

Ultimately I'm not saying I am 100% in favor of signing Kemba, but this is the final year we have a chance to make a free agency splash so we should at least inquire and see what is possible. Unless we start dumping deals, we're locked in after this offseason.

[Wizop]

Just for quick easy math if we say Kemba is around $30 mil, we'd have close to $80 mil for Vic/Kemba/Myles/Domas/Doug

Doug is 7. Myles is 20. Kemba is 30. Vic is 20. oh, we left out Bogie who will need 18. now we're at 95 with Sabonis and Vic to extend. Domas is another 20. 105. Vic won't take less than Kemba so now we're at 135 with 7 players yet to sign. where did I go wrong?

[pacers33granger]

Just for quick easy math if we say Kemba is around $30 mil, we'd have close to $80 mil for Vic/Kemba/Myles/Domas/Doug

Doug is 7. Myles is 20. Kemba is 30. Vic is 20. oh, we left out Bogie who will need 18. now we're at 95 with Sabonis and Vic to extend. Domas is another 20. 105. Vic won't take less than Kemba so now we're at 135 with 7 players yet to sign. where did I go wrong?

You didn't go wrong, but that's exactly what I said. We'll be more than fine the next 2 seasons while Vic is locked up unless someone wants to throw a max at Domas (in which case we'd be screwed no matter what) and we will be way under the tax while Domas is still cheap for one more year. Any extension for Vic wouldn't kick in until 21-22.

Depending on the length of Kemba/Bogie deals, we'd have some decisions to make in year 3, but that's a ways away and the tax line will be $143 mil. Holiday will be just under $4 mil as a cheap rotation player that season before he needs to be paid or moved, we'll potentially have two cheap first rounders on the books for a couple more years, and possibly second round guys.

Ultimately it's essentially a choice between Kemba or 2-3 much lesser players for the same money. Depth is nice, but we lack high end talent. Would you prefer to pay the trio of DC/CoJo/Thad the money that would go to Kemba or sign Kemba and get two minimum guys for those other spots? Maybe you don't have to do the same length, but they probably cost more.

[Wizop]

Would you prefer to pay the trio of DC/CoJo/Thad the money that would go to Kemba or sign Kemba and get two minimum guys for those other spots? Maybe you don't have to do the same length, but they probably cost more.

I've joined the let CoJo walk team. I'd keep Thad if at all possible, but I'd be willing to tell him we can only give you a one year deal as after that Sabonis will need to be extended. [if the math lets his deal run until Vic's is over, that's even better.]

so do I want 3 guys at 10mm each or 1 guy at 30? or should I make that do I think Pritchard will want 3 good guys or 1 star? I lean to quantity because I like team ball over isolations, but only time will tell what Pritchard prefers.

[Tomhomes33]

I have one question here

Why would Kemba want to come to play for Pacers when he will have max offers from Lakers or Clippers or Knicks so other big market teams, at least bigger than Indy.
Second question: why would he accept anything less than max??

I think all this talk about Kemba is wishfull talking.
Rather draft good (sabonis type talent) and try to trade/sign for a couple of yoing talented players.
If 1of3 pans out its great business.

[pacers33granger]

Would you prefer to pay the trio of DC/CoJo/Thad the money that would go to Kemba or sign Kemba and get two minimum guys for those other spots? Maybe you don't have to do the same length, but they probably cost more.

I've joined the let CoJo walk team. I'd keep Thad if at all possible, but I'd be willing to tell him we can only give you a one year deal as after that Sabonis will need to be extended. [if the math lets his deal run until Vic's is over, that's even better.]

so do I want 3 guys at 10mm each or 1 guy at 30? or should I make that do I think Pritchard will want 3 good guys or 1 star? I lean to quantity because I like team ball over isolations, but only time will tell what Pritchard prefers.

Like I said before, I'm not sure I'm in on signing Kemba, but it's an option I'd like to explore at least and I think it can work out if things fall right.

We give up a lot as we basically can only keep Bogie out of all our free agents. But is that really that bad of a thing? Thad is the only other one I care about retaining (Matthews too but no bird rights anyways) unless DC will stay for cheap with the understanding he's mentoring Holiday. We lose most of our flexibility after this summer as is anyways with Domas' new deal.

So if it largely comes down to losing Thad (which forces Nate to utilize the Myles/Domas paring more) and having to fill out the bench with cheap options, it's worth a look. If Sumner and/or Alize can play spot minutes we don't have a ton of holes to really fill honestly:

Kemba/Holiday
Vic/Sumner
Bogie/Doug
Domas/Leaf/Alize
Myles/

I see 8 guys who we know can play solid minutes and numerous of them can play multiple positions.

[Tomhomes33]

What I wnat to say copy-cat Raptors..they found Siakam..and OG who can stil turn to be more than rotation player. VanVleet will replace Lowry in a way it will not be felt that much. Pacers road to something more than just first round play-offs is not Kemba..its Toronto kinda of way..

[pacers33granger]

I have one question here

Why would Kemba want to come to play for Pacers when he will have max offers from Lakers or Clippers or Knicks so other big market teams, at least bigger than Indy.
Second question: why would he accept anything less than max??

Because the Lakers and Knicks are not good teams? And the Clippers have guards so they won't go after him. The guy clearly wants to win, so if it comes down to taking a few mil less in order to keep a talent like Bogie around, he may be open to it. Guys have done it before. And he's friends with Vic, so you know he's going to be talking to him at least.

I think all this talk about Kemba is wishfull talking.
Rather draft good (sabonis type talent) and try to trade/sign for a couple of yoing talented players.
If 1of3 pans out its great business.

I think drafting a Sabonis type talent in this draft in the 20s is more wishful thinking than signing a star honestly. Or trading for young players as we have no real assets and no way to match salary. Signing one to the MLE may be an option, but you run the risk of the guy not panning out at all and having a Gerald Green contract on your hands to dump from day one.

[pacers33granger]

Oddly enough you can probably find not so old threads where I was arguing against signing Kemba and running this team back with Vic. But at this point, I'm not so sure about that. Unless Holiday steps up next season, our PG situation will continue to be atrocious and even with Vic we still lack the scoring we need.

If Bogie can be our 3rd option on offense (and Domas 4th), we'd be doing pretty well.

[ducler]

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