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Jokic/Sabonis comparisons

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Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#1 » by boomershadow » Thu May 2, 2019 10:02 am

I've been watching Nikola Jokic a bit these playoffs. I'm not just now finding out about him, but I definitely haven't watched so much Denver basketball that I'm used to seeing a center be the de facto point guard on the floor. He's not the star player I think anybody saw coming, but he's really doing it big right now. And as we all know, our own Domantas Sabonis is a big man with some pedigree, definite passing talent, and pick and roll chemistry of his own. We use Sabonis as a sort of offensive hub off the bench at the moment, but doing it for 18 minutes a night against bench players and doing it as a main staple of a team's offense night in and night out are totally different things.

Is Jokic the blueprint that we should be using to help get the most out of Sabonis? Is Sabonis the kind of player who is gonna need the ball that much in order to maximize his talents? Cuz I think we should be getting more out of Sabonis than just being a solid roll man and occasional post threat. If so, does that affect your thinking about what to do with the point guard position this off-season? Oladipo, when he gets back from injury, is gonna need the ball. If you run the offense through Sabonis or Oladipo a fair amount of the time, there may be diminishing returns with spending money on a ball dominant point guard like Kemba Walker. Such a move might even stifle this aspect of Sabonis's game.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#2 » by Vorda » Thu May 2, 2019 10:13 am

Oladipo showed that he cant lead team alone in PO... we need one more top level scorer... we lost against Cavs cause they doubled defense on Vic and we hadnt answer... so we need despertly Kemba...

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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#3 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 2, 2019 1:20 pm

boomershadow wrote:I've been watching Nikola Jokic a bit these playoffs. I'm not just now finding out about him, but I definitely haven't watched so much Denver basketball that I'm used to seeing a center be the de facto point guard on the floor. He's not the star player I think anybody saw coming, but he's really doing it big right now. And as we all know, our own Domantas Sabonis is a big man with some pedigree, definite passing talent, and pick and roll chemistry of his own. We use Sabonis as a sort of offensive hub off the bench at the moment, but doing it for 18 minutes a night against bench players and doing it as a main staple of a team's offense night in and night out are totally different things.

Is Jokic the blueprint that we should be using to help get the most out of Sabonis? Is Sabonis the kind of player who is gonna need the ball that much in order to maximize his talents? Cuz I think we should be getting more out of Sabonis than just being a solid roll man and occasional post threat. If so, does that affect your thinking about what to do with the point guard position this off-season? Oladipo, when he gets back from injury, is gonna need the ball. If you run the offense through Sabonis or Oladipo a fair amount of the time, there may be diminishing returns with spending money on a ball dominant point guard like Kemba Walker. Such a move might even stifle this aspect of Sabonis's game.


I think the most immediate avenue for improvement, and the one that will really allow Dom, and our team, to flourish, is for Dom to work on his right hand. He has a lot to compare with Jokic in terms of mobility, passing, and ability to just bully ball a smaller player to the basket, but until he can go both left and right reliably, he's a target defensively in the playoffs, as we saw Boston roll extra players to his left hand forcing him to go right, where he was clearly uncomfortable.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#4 » by pacers70 » Thu May 2, 2019 1:55 pm

boomershadow wrote:I've been watching Nikola Jokic a bit these playoffs. I'm not just now finding out about him, but I definitely haven't watched so much Denver basketball that I'm used to seeing a center be the de facto point guard on the floor. He's not the star player I think anybody saw coming, but he's really doing it big right now. And as we all know, our own Domantas Sabonis is a big man with some pedigree, definite passing talent, and pick and roll chemistry of his own. We use Sabonis as a sort of offensive hub off the bench at the moment, but doing it for 18 minutes a night against bench players and doing it as a main staple of a team's offense night in and night out are totally different things.

Is Jokic the blueprint that we should be using to help get the most out of Sabonis? Is Sabonis the kind of player who is gonna need the ball that much in order to maximize his talents? Cuz I think we should be getting more out of Sabonis than just being a solid roll man and occasional post threat. If so, does that affect your thinking about what to do with the point guard position this off-season? Oladipo, when he gets back from injury, is gonna need the ball. If you run the offense through Sabonis or Oladipo a fair amount of the time, there may be diminishing returns with spending money on a ball dominant point guard like Kemba Walker. Such a move might even stifle this aspect of Sabonis's game.


I would prefer to get a shooting guard with some size that can handle the ball to put next to Vic.

We desperately need a star player to put next to Vic. The problem is the only star player that I think we have a chance at is Kemba. Because of that, I think we should sign Kemba. He can play off the ball, he just hasn't been able to because he hasn't had much help in Charlotte.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#5 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 2, 2019 2:34 pm

pacers70 wrote:
boomershadow wrote:I've been watching Nikola Jokic a bit these playoffs. I'm not just now finding out about him, but I definitely haven't watched so much Denver basketball that I'm used to seeing a center be the de facto point guard on the floor. He's not the star player I think anybody saw coming, but he's really doing it big right now. And as we all know, our own Domantas Sabonis is a big man with some pedigree, definite passing talent, and pick and roll chemistry of his own. We use Sabonis as a sort of offensive hub off the bench at the moment, but doing it for 18 minutes a night against bench players and doing it as a main staple of a team's offense night in and night out are totally different things.

Is Jokic the blueprint that we should be using to help get the most out of Sabonis? Is Sabonis the kind of player who is gonna need the ball that much in order to maximize his talents? Cuz I think we should be getting more out of Sabonis than just being a solid roll man and occasional post threat. If so, does that affect your thinking about what to do with the point guard position this off-season? Oladipo, when he gets back from injury, is gonna need the ball. If you run the offense through Sabonis or Oladipo a fair amount of the time, there may be diminishing returns with spending money on a ball dominant point guard like Kemba Walker. Such a move might even stifle this aspect of Sabonis's game.


I would prefer to get a shooting guard with some size that can handle the ball to put next to Vic.

We desperately need a star player to put next to Vic. The problem is the only star player that I think we have a chance at is Kemba. Because of that, I think we should sign Kemba. He can play off the ball, he just hasn't been able to because he hasn't had much help in Charlotte.


I get what you're saying, but I don't love the concept of moving Vic to full time PG. He handles the ball a lot, I know, in terms of his normal game, but I'd prefer to have someone who's a bit more controlled there and used to running an offense.


I'll be honest, I'm really convincing myself more and more as to throwing a max contract at D'Angelo Russell from Brooklyn and forcing them to match. He's a 6'5" PG and he assisted on 41% of all teammates field goals while he was on the court last year, an improvement on the prior year of almost 36%. For fun, the highest we've had since the days of Tinsley (where he routinely assisted on 38-43% most years he was here) has been Teague/Lawson with 36% in their respective runs here. He also shot 37% from 3 on almost 8 attempts last year. He's shown already as a good offensive player, and an ok defensive player, so room to improve, but talented and long enough to improve there in our system. And, he only averaged 30.2 minutes a night in Brooklyn this past year, when he put up absolutely solid stats when he played 30-39 minutes in games, so there's even more room for improvement. Plus, I think he could play next to Vic or Aaron Holiday, so a lot of flexibility there.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#6 » by pacers70 » Thu May 2, 2019 3:35 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
boomershadow wrote:I've been watching Nikola Jokic a bit these playoffs. I'm not just now finding out about him, but I definitely haven't watched so much Denver basketball that I'm used to seeing a center be the de facto point guard on the floor. He's not the star player I think anybody saw coming, but he's really doing it big right now. And as we all know, our own Domantas Sabonis is a big man with some pedigree, definite passing talent, and pick and roll chemistry of his own. We use Sabonis as a sort of offensive hub off the bench at the moment, but doing it for 18 minutes a night against bench players and doing it as a main staple of a team's offense night in and night out are totally different things.

Is Jokic the blueprint that we should be using to help get the most out of Sabonis? Is Sabonis the kind of player who is gonna need the ball that much in order to maximize his talents? Cuz I think we should be getting more out of Sabonis than just being a solid roll man and occasional post threat. If so, does that affect your thinking about what to do with the point guard position this off-season? Oladipo, when he gets back from injury, is gonna need the ball. If you run the offense through Sabonis or Oladipo a fair amount of the time, there may be diminishing returns with spending money on a ball dominant point guard like Kemba Walker. Such a move might even stifle this aspect of Sabonis's game.


I would prefer to get a shooting guard with some size that can handle the ball to put next to Vic.

We desperately need a star player to put next to Vic. The problem is the only star player that I think we have a chance at is Kemba. Because of that, I think we should sign Kemba. He can play off the ball, he just hasn't been able to because he hasn't had much help in Charlotte.


I get what you're saying, but I don't love the concept of moving Vic to full time PG. He handles the ball a lot, I know, in terms of his normal game, but I'd prefer to have someone who's a bit more controlled there and used to running an offense.


I'll be honest, I'm really convincing myself more and more as to throwing a max contract at D'Angelo Russell from Brooklyn and forcing them to match. He's a 6'5" PG and he assisted on 41% of all teammates field goals while he was on the court last year, an improvement on the prior year of almost 36%. For fun, the highest we've had since the days of Tinsley (where he routinely assisted on 38-43% most years he was here) has been Teague/Lawson with 36% in their respective runs here. He also shot 37% from 3 on almost 8 attempts last year. He's shown already as a good offensive player, and an ok defensive player, so room to improve, but talented and long enough to improve there in our system. And, he only averaged 30.2 minutes a night in Brooklyn this past year, when he put up absolutely solid stats when he played 30-39 minutes in games, so there's even more room for improvement. Plus, I think he could play next to Vic or Aaron Holiday, so a lot of flexibility there.



I'd rather have Russel than Kemba to and Russell's max is "only" $27.3 million.

I think the only shot we would have at Russell would be if the Nets went for 2 top FA's. I read somewhere that Durant and Leonard were considering signing with the Nets. I also heard that Durant and Irving were a possibility as well. If the Nets are focusing on those guys, maybe we can sneak in and get Russell. I don't think it is likely, but it is the only shot we would have at him. This is where our FO has to do a lot of research and find out how possible it would be.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#7 » by pacers33granger » Thu May 2, 2019 3:55 pm

There's a lot from Jokic that Domas can learn and try to replicate. But his passing will never be there. Domas is a good passer, but we're potentially talking about the best passing big man ever.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#8 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 2, 2019 4:02 pm

pacers33granger wrote:There's a lot from Jokic that Domas can learn and try to replicate. But his passing will never be there. Domas is a good passer, but we're potentially talking about the best passing big man ever.


mean, 2nd only to Dom’s dad, right? :wink:
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#9 » by Wizop » Thu May 2, 2019 5:06 pm

pacers70 wrote:We desperately need a star player to put next to Vic. The problem is the only star player that I think we have a chance at is Kemba. Because of that, I think we should sign Kemba. He can play off the ball, he just hasn't been able to because he hasn't had much help in Charlotte.


I'll bet beers that Kemba does not sign with us and while I don't know how we'd prove it I'd bet Pritchard takes a run at someone that hasn't been rumored at all. now he did say "all star." here are some names

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/7/30/17616436/nba-free-agency-2019-list-kevin-durant-kyrie-irving
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#10 » by 8305 » Thu May 2, 2019 8:07 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
boomershadow wrote:I've been watching Nikola Jokic a bit these playoffs. I'm not just now finding out about him, but I definitely haven't watched so much Denver basketball that I'm used to seeing a center be the de facto point guard on the floor. He's not the star player I think anybody saw coming, but he's really doing it big right now. And as we all know, our own Domantas Sabonis is a big man with some pedigree, definite passing talent, and pick and roll chemistry of his own. We use Sabonis as a sort of offensive hub off the bench at the moment, but doing it for 18 minutes a night against bench players and doing it as a main staple of a team's offense night in and night out are totally different things.

Is Jokic the blueprint that we should be using to help get the most out of Sabonis? Is Sabonis the kind of player who is gonna need the ball that much in order to maximize his talents? Cuz I think we should be getting more out of Sabonis than just being a solid roll man and occasional post threat. If so, does that affect your thinking about what to do with the point guard position this off-season? Oladipo, when he gets back from injury, is gonna need the ball. If you run the offense through Sabonis or Oladipo a fair amount of the time, there may be diminishing returns with spending money on a ball dominant point guard like Kemba Walker. Such a move might even stifle this aspect of Sabonis's game.


I think the most immediate avenue for improvement, and the one that will really allow Dom, and our team, to flourish, is for Dom to work on his right hand. He has a lot to compare with Jokic in terms of mobility, passing, and ability to just bully ball a smaller player to the basket, but until he can go both left and right reliably, he's a target defensively in the playoffs, as we saw Boston roll extra players to his left hand forcing him to go right, where he was clearly uncomfortable.


Even with his right hand limitations he's a pretty effective post up guy. If you want him to be more Jokic-like he has to be willing to take an open shot when it presents itself and hit it with some regularity. Teams look like they generally give the 3 on into the foul line to him. When he makes opponents pay for that strategy things will really open up for him. Better opportunities off the dribble will open up and overall spacing will improve.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#11 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 2, 2019 9:57 pm

8305 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
boomershadow wrote:I've been watching Nikola Jokic a bit these playoffs. I'm not just now finding out about him, but I definitely haven't watched so much Denver basketball that I'm used to seeing a center be the de facto point guard on the floor. He's not the star player I think anybody saw coming, but he's really doing it big right now. And as we all know, our own Domantas Sabonis is a big man with some pedigree, definite passing talent, and pick and roll chemistry of his own. We use Sabonis as a sort of offensive hub off the bench at the moment, but doing it for 18 minutes a night against bench players and doing it as a main staple of a team's offense night in and night out are totally different things.

Is Jokic the blueprint that we should be using to help get the most out of Sabonis? Is Sabonis the kind of player who is gonna need the ball that much in order to maximize his talents? Cuz I think we should be getting more out of Sabonis than just being a solid roll man and occasional post threat. If so, does that affect your thinking about what to do with the point guard position this off-season? Oladipo, when he gets back from injury, is gonna need the ball. If you run the offense through Sabonis or Oladipo a fair amount of the time, there may be diminishing returns with spending money on a ball dominant point guard like Kemba Walker. Such a move might even stifle this aspect of Sabonis's game.


I think the most immediate avenue for improvement, and the one that will really allow Dom, and our team, to flourish, is for Dom to work on his right hand. He has a lot to compare with Jokic in terms of mobility, passing, and ability to just bully ball a smaller player to the basket, but until he can go both left and right reliably, he's a target defensively in the playoffs, as we saw Boston roll extra players to his left hand forcing him to go right, where he was clearly uncomfortable.


Even with his right hand limitations he's a pretty effective post up guy. If you want him to be more Jokic-like he has to be willing to take an open shot when it presents itself and hit it with some regularity. Teams look like they generally give the 3 on into the foul line to him. When he makes opponents pay for that strategy things will really open up for him. Better opportunities off the dribble will open up and overall spacing will improve.


I completely agree. He absolutely is still effective in the post. Just, the ability to go both ways and post from both sides by being more adept with his right hand would be a huge plus and take his game to the next step. It didn’t really hurt him in the regular season, but kills him in the post season when games slow down and teams send guys in waves after him in the post.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#12 » by pacers33granger » Thu May 2, 2019 10:01 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:It didn’t really hurt him in the regular season, but kills him in the post season when games slow down and teams send guys in waves
after him in the post.


Certainly doesn't help that he seems to get a less favorable whistle than many others and this particular series the refs let Baynes push everybody.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#13 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 2, 2019 10:10 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:It didn’t really hurt him in the regular season, but kills him in the post season when games slow down and teams send guys in waves
after him in the post.


Certainly doesn't help that he seems to get a less favorable whistle than many others and this particular series the refs let Baynes push everybody.


NO argument here that the refs are calling a drastically different playoffs than rest of the season. I know teams change styles going into playoffs and slow down/tighten up since every possession is worth fighting everything for, but yikes. Baynes was like throwing Kendrick Perkins out there all over again.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#14 » by pacers33granger » Thu May 2, 2019 10:13 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:It didn’t really hurt him in the regular season, but kills him in the post season when games slow down and teams send guys in waves
after him in the post.


Certainly doesn't help that he seems to get a less favorable whistle than many others and this particular series the refs let Baynes push everybody.


NO argument here that the refs are calling a drastically different playoffs than rest of the season. I know teams change styles going into playoffs and slow down/tighten up since every possession is worth fighting everything for, but yikes. Baynes was like throwing Kendrick Perkins out there all over again.


Yeah the playoffs are a different beast and I don't think the refs did a terrible job in that series overall, but Baynes gets away with a lot and always has. It seems like the opposite of the old Shaq rules - he's so strong that it's not a foul it's just his brute strength.

Also super frustrating seeing Myles (rightfully) get dinged for sticking his hip out on screens all season long and Baynes doing it multiple times in a single play with no repercussions.

Bottom line though is that it should be a learning experience for Domas on what he needs to work on this summer.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#15 » by Wizop » Thu May 2, 2019 11:25 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:mean, 2nd only to Dom’s dad, right? :wink:


Domas should take Myles to Lithuania for the summer so they can post work on post moves with Dad.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#16 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri May 3, 2019 1:14 am

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:mean, 2nd only to Dom’s dad, right? :wink:


Domas should take Myles to Lithuania for the summer so they can post work on post moves with Dad.


I DOnt think arvydas can really even walk well. Allegedly, when he first signed with Portland in the early 90’s, the doctors red flagged his physical and said his xrays would have qualified him for a handicap placard in Oregon then. The admins still signed him because his game at that point clearly wasn’t dependent on athleticism. :lol:
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#17 » by Wizop » Fri May 3, 2019 1:28 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:mean, 2nd only to Dom’s dad, right? :wink:


Domas should take Myles to Lithuania for the summer so they can post work on post moves with Dad.


I DOnt think arvydas can really even walk well. Allegedly, when he first signed with Portland in the early 90’s, the doctors red flagged his physical and said his xrays would have qualified him for a handicap placard in Oregon then. The admins still signed him because his game at that point clearly wasn’t dependent on athleticism.
he coaches so he may be able to explain how to do things he can no longer do himself.

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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#18 » by basketballwacko2 » Tue May 7, 2019 7:21 pm

Vorda wrote:Oladipo showed that he cant lead team alone in PO... we need one more top level scorer... we lost against Cavs cause they doubled defense on Vic and we hadnt answer... so we need despertly Kemba...

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Yeah Vic was awful in the PO this year! :lol:


No need for Kemba, too old, too much money, too much risk. He won't sign here anyhow so quit worrying about it. We're gonna get what we get we'll be a good team and build through the draft by picking well. It can be done with scouting and smart moves. Tossing big money at 2nd Tier players is not the answer.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#19 » by Vorda » Tue May 7, 2019 7:27 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Vorda wrote:Oladipo showed that he cant lead team alone in PO... we need one more top level scorer... we lost against Cavs cause they doubled defense on Vic and we hadnt answer... so we need despertly Kemba...

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Yeah Vic was awful in the PO this year!


No need for Kemba, too old, too much money, too much risk. He won't sign here anyhow so quit worrying about it. We're gonna get what we get we'll be a good team and build through the draft by picking well. It can be done with scouting and smart moves. Tossing big money at 2nd Tier players is not the answer.
If we are going build through draft we will never make PO again... If you forget... we dont have lottery pick...

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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#20 » by basketballwacko2 » Tue May 7, 2019 7:30 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
boomershadow wrote:I've been watching Nikola Jokic a bit these playoffs. I'm not just now finding out about him, but I definitely haven't watched so much Denver basketball that I'm used to seeing a center be the de facto point guard on the floor. He's not the star player I think anybody saw coming, but he's really doing it big right now. And as we all know, our own Domantas Sabonis is a big man with some pedigree, definite passing talent, and pick and roll chemistry of his own. We use Sabonis as a sort of offensive hub off the bench at the moment, but doing it for 18 minutes a night against bench players and doing it as a main staple of a team's offense night in and night out are totally different things.

Is Jokic the blueprint that we should be using to help get the most out of Sabonis? Is Sabonis the kind of player who is gonna need the ball that much in order to maximize his talents? Cuz I think we should be getting more out of Sabonis than just being a solid roll man and occasional post threat. If so, does that affect your thinking about what to do with the point guard position this off-season? Oladipo, when he gets back from injury, is gonna need the ball. If you run the offense through Sabonis or Oladipo a fair amount of the time, there may be diminishing returns with spending money on a ball dominant point guard like Kemba Walker. Such a move might even stifle this aspect of Sabonis's game.


I would prefer to get a shooting guard with some size that can handle the ball to put next to Vic.

We desperately need a star player to put next to Vic. The problem is the only star player that I think we have a chance at is Kemba. Because of that, I think we should sign Kemba. He can play off the ball, he just hasn't been able to because he hasn't had much help in Charlotte.


I get what you're saying, but I don't love the concept of moving Vic to full time PG. He handles the ball a lot, I know, in terms of his normal game, but I'd prefer to have someone who's a bit more controlled there and used to running an offense.


I'll be honest, I'm really convincing myself more and more as to throwing a max contract at D'Angelo Russell from Brooklyn and forcing them to match. He's a 6'5" PG and he assisted on 41% of all teammates field goals while he was on the court last year, an improvement on the prior year of almost 36%. For fun, the highest we've had since the days of Tinsley (where he routinely assisted on 38-43% most years he was here) has been Teague/Lawson with 36% in their respective runs here. He also shot 37% from 3 on almost 8 attempts last year. He's shown already as a good offensive player, and an ok defensive player, so room to improve, but talented and long enough to improve there in our system. And, he only averaged 30.2 minutes a night in Brooklyn this past year, when he put up absolutely solid stats when he played 30-39 minutes in games, so there's even more room for improvement. Plus, I think he could play next to Vic or Aaron Holiday, so a lot of flexibility there.



Russell is young enough and good enough to warrant a $27 million deal for 4 years with a player option in year 4. But still gives me the heebe-jeebee's committing that much money to a guy. A major injury and he's a boat anchor for the team for 3 years.

The Pacers have been smart and not given big money to guys like Mahinmi and Solo Hill letting them walk. Trying to force it with guys that just don't have what we really need is the thing that puts teams in "cap hell." I'm not wanting to give a 4 year deal to a guy who is already 29 years old unless he's a full blown monster like Kawhi or KD. And I know those guys ain't coming here.

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