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Jokic/Sabonis comparisons

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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#101 » by basketballwacko2 » Sat May 11, 2019 3:18 am

Vorda wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

It’s ok to admit that players take time to develop. I’m not at all criticizing foreign prospects alone for that. As I said, it took Lance 4 years here for him to be able to contribute in a positive manner. Kyle Lowry bounces between something like 4 teams and several seasons before he became a top notch PG in the nba. But he got moved often and quickly because teams were expecting him to be an immediate contributor, and he needed time to develop, and they burned out on him.



Not every kid that comes from the Euro-League is a super talented guy like Luka Doncic or Porzingis. Just like not ever kid from the NCAA is a Zion, or KAT.


I didnt say that he is super talent, but he can be decent back up for the start...



I understand that, I was looking at him last year they had him projected as a 2nd round pick but I guess he withdrew from the draft. I sure would have liked to get him for a late 2nd last year and have his rights. I can see him staying in Europe for a year or 2 then coming over and making a bit of a splash. He doesn't turn 20 til July so even if he spent 2 years in Europe coming in as a 22 year old he'd still be young and with a lot of quality experience in game. NBA.net has him projected as a mid to late 1st this year. A lot depends on the combines, if he comes for the combine he might help his stock and go higher.

There are several guys I like from 15-25 in this draft. Granted they may not blow the doors off the gym at first but, we're looking to build a long term winner.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#102 » by basketballwacko2 » Sat May 11, 2019 3:41 am

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:If you don’t sign Bogie, you only have the $13m of his cap hold available. The $18.375m is what we could offer him via his early bird rights and exceeding the cap. So you’re looking at either Bogie for up to $18.375m, or Green for $13m.

No problem, if there's only 13m available, we can go for Terrence Ross + JaVale McGee, or Rodney Hood + Kyle O'Quinn, or even Lance + Dewayne Dedmon, or whatever combination that works money wise

My point is, if you have Vic and Kemba on the roster, and starting Myles and Domas, I'd much rather spread the remaining money over two solid role players than giving it all to Bogie

In the case of Terrence Ross + Javale McGee, I'd argue that Ross is actually a better fit over Bogie anyway


Terrence Ross is extremely inconsistent, and McGee well he's Javale McGee.

And I'm sorry Top but you may as well go bark up another tree because we aren't getting Kemba even if the team wants him.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#103 » by basketballwacko2 » Sat May 11, 2019 3:50 am

Pacers_Freak wrote:Ok I get the love affair with Kemba. But if he says no.... what is everyone's plan moving forward?



I don't get all the talk about Kemba! He's the best player on a really bad team a team that could beat out Detroit, Brooklyn and Orlando for 8th and finished 9 games back of the Pacers when we were missing Victor for more than 1/2 the season.

I don't know what some of these guys are gonna do when he signs with the Knicks or Lakers. But Keep them away from the sharp objects and make sure the 3rd story windows are locked!
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#104 » by basketballwacko2 » Sat May 11, 2019 3:51 am

It could be worse than our FO situation take a look at the Lakers Board if you want to see some screaming and the Celtics fans are about to stage a revolt.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#105 » by winter_mute_13 » Sat May 11, 2019 3:15 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:Ok I get the love affair with Kemba. But if he says no.... what is everyone's plan moving forward?


I hardly think going after Kemba is a real plan. It's more like wishful thinking, LOL. Of course if Kemba's agent lets the Pacers know that Kemba is interested, KP will and should move heaven and earth to make it happen, but that doesn't mean it's a realistic scenario.

Fans don't like to hear it, but honestly the Pacers' FA plan is probably to do what they've always done. Grab some guys on reasonable contracts, and hope someone "pops". It doesn't always have to be Dipo level of pop (though of course it would be nice) but even just getting more guys like Bogie on reasonable deals should take us further. It's not sexy, but it works.

Talent acquisition aside, I think the Pacers should seriously rethink whether they are getting the most out of the talent they do have. The most glaring issue of course is the Turner/Sabonis thing, but really there are questions up and down the roster, from Dipo down to McDermott.

At this point, I think Bojan is the only FA that the Pacers should try to re-sign. Thad, DC, and Corey are all useful in various ways, but they don't really address the weaknesses of a team built around Dipo, Turner, and Sabonis. It could be also that one of those core pieces need to be swapped out, in which case now is the best time to make that decision IMO.

TL;DR Pacers' plan should be to take a close look at who they currently are, figure out who they want to be, then target guys in FA and maybe trade to get as close as possible to that ideal vision.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#106 » by VCfor3 » Sat May 11, 2019 6:21 pm

pacers70 wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:Ok I get the love affair with Kemba. But if he says no.... what is everyone's plan moving forward?


Great question!

In my opinion, we don't have a shot at another star so we would probably need to find a young player that could become a star. We may have to look for a veteran PG to fill in for a year or two while Holiday develops. Maybe we look for a younger SF with potential instead of trying to re-sign Bogey. Maybe we try for Malcom Brogdon.

We may have to look at a trade, unfortunately we don't know what players are available or how much they would cost. I know Conley is available. I also know that he will cost way too much, so I would pass on that move.

You can probably tell by my answer that I don't really have a Pan "B". :o


I like the potential Conley fit if value can be figured out in the trade. Of course Memphis would love to have Sabonis but I just have a hard time seeing Indy do that at this time. The biggest hurdle was matching salary but on the Locked On podcast, your host and a Memphis beat writer were discussing deals and your guy suggested using Collison as salary filler in a S&T. Basically you give him a big three year deal but the last two seasons are UNG to make him essentially an expiring contract. Gives Memphis a starting PG for the year if they decide to not draft one and more importantly lets you guys keep your cap holds for Cojo, Thad, and Bogdan. You have to make sure you aren't going to go into the tax but that squad plus someone with the MLE could be quite good. Conley only has two years left and then Holiday would take over in theory. Paying Sabonis next offseason may be a problem but there are solutions you can peruse when the time comes. Doug was also included in the proposed deal with Collison to save some money on your end. My guess is it would take multiple 1sts to get the deal to happen but it's interesting.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#107 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat May 11, 2019 8:46 pm

VCfor3 wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:Ok I get the love affair with Kemba. But if he says no.... what is everyone's plan moving forward?


Great question!

In my opinion, we don't have a shot at another star so we would probably need to find a young player that could become a star. We may have to look for a veteran PG to fill in for a year or two while Holiday develops. Maybe we look for a younger SF with potential instead of trying to re-sign Bogey. Maybe we try for Malcom Brogdon.

We may have to look at a trade, unfortunately we don't know what players are available or how much they would cost. I know Conley is available. I also know that he will cost way too much, so I would pass on that move.

You can probably tell by my answer that I don't really have a Pan "B". :o


I like the potential Conley fit if value can be figured out in the trade. Of course Memphis would love to have Sabonis but I just have a hard time seeing Indy do that at this time. The biggest hurdle was matching salary but on the Locked On podcast, your host and a Memphis beat writer were discussing deals and your guy suggested using Collison as salary filler in a S&T. Basically you give him a big three year deal but the last two seasons are UNG to make him essentially an expiring contract. Gives Memphis a starting PG for the year if they decide to not draft one and more importantly lets you guys keep your cap holds for Cojo, Thad, and Bogdan. You have to make sure you aren't going to go into the tax but that squad plus someone with the MLE could be quite good. Conley only has two years left and then Holiday would take over in theory. Paying Sabonis next offseason may be a problem but there are solutions you can peruse when the time comes. Doug was also included in the proposed deal with Collison to save some money on your end. My guess is it would take multiple 1sts to get the deal to happen but it's interesting.



Giving Collison the $17+m required deal for one year (non guaranteeing the rest of the required 3 year minimum offer for a s&t) seems like an insane crazy idea.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#108 » by VCfor3 » Sat May 11, 2019 9:03 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
Great question!

In my opinion, we don't have a shot at another star so we would probably need to find a young player that could become a star. We may have to look for a veteran PG to fill in for a year or two while Holiday develops. Maybe we look for a younger SF with potential instead of trying to re-sign Bogey. Maybe we try for Malcom Brogdon.

We may have to look at a trade, unfortunately we don't know what players are available or how much they would cost. I know Conley is available. I also know that he will cost way too much, so I would pass on that move.

You can probably tell by my answer that I don't really have a Pan "B". :o


I like the potential Conley fit if value can be figured out in the trade. Of course Memphis would love to have Sabonis but I just have a hard time seeing Indy do that at this time. The biggest hurdle was matching salary but on the Locked On podcast, your host and a Memphis beat writer were discussing deals and your guy suggested using Collison as salary filler in a S&T. Basically you give him a big three year deal but the last two seasons are UNG to make him essentially an expiring contract. Gives Memphis a starting PG for the year if they decide to not draft one and more importantly lets you guys keep your cap holds for Cojo, Thad, and Bogdan. You have to make sure you aren't going to go into the tax but that squad plus someone with the MLE could be quite good. Conley only has two years left and then Holiday would take over in theory. Paying Sabonis next offseason may be a problem but there are solutions you can peruse when the time comes. Doug was also included in the proposed deal with Collison to save some money on your end. My guess is it would take multiple 1sts to get the deal to happen but it's interesting.



Giving Collison the $17+m required deal for one year (non guaranteeing the rest of the required 3 year minimum offer for a s&t) seems like an insane crazy idea.


So crazy it just might work :lol:

I think Conley is an All-Star in the East, but if acquiring him costs you all of your FAs plus the value needed to actually get him then it isn't worth it.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#109 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat May 11, 2019 10:57 pm

VCfor3 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:
I like the potential Conley fit if value can be figured out in the trade. Of course Memphis would love to have Sabonis but I just have a hard time seeing Indy do that at this time. The biggest hurdle was matching salary but on the Locked On podcast, your host and a Memphis beat writer were discussing deals and your guy suggested using Collison as salary filler in a S&T. Basically you give him a big three year deal but the last two seasons are UNG to make him essentially an expiring contract. Gives Memphis a starting PG for the year if they decide to not draft one and more importantly lets you guys keep your cap holds for Cojo, Thad, and Bogdan. You have to make sure you aren't going to go into the tax but that squad plus someone with the MLE could be quite good. Conley only has two years left and then Holiday would take over in theory. Paying Sabonis next offseason may be a problem but there are solutions you can peruse when the time comes. Doug was also included in the proposed deal with Collison to save some money on your end. My guess is it would take multiple 1sts to get the deal to happen but it's interesting.



Giving Collison the $17+m required deal for one year (non guaranteeing the rest of the required 3 year minimum offer for a s&t) seems like an insane crazy idea.


So crazy it just might work :lol:

I think Conley is an All-Star in the East, but if acquiring him costs you all of your FAs plus the value needed to actually get him then it isn't worth it.


So crazy it seems like we’d have to compensate them extra :dontknow:
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#110 » by pacers70 » Sun May 12, 2019 12:23 am

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:Ok I get the love affair with Kemba. But if he says no.... what is everyone's plan moving forward?



I don't get all the talk about Kemba! He's the best player on a really bad team a team that could beat out Detroit, Brooklyn and Orlando for 8th and finished 9 games back of the Pacers when we were missing Victor for more than 1/2 the season.

I don't know what some of these guys are gonna do when he signs with the Knicks or Lakers. But Keep them away from the sharp objects and make sure the 3rd story windows are locked!


Kemba hasn’t had much help his entire career. The few years that he have some help (Al Jefferson), Charlotte made the playoffs.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if he had Oladipo, Bogey, Turner and Sabonis help him.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#111 » by boomershadow » Sun May 12, 2019 1:58 am

pacers70 wrote:It would be interesting to see what would happen if he had Oladipo, Bogey, Turner and Sabonis help him.


This is my dream scenario for the summer.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#112 » by Boneman2 » Sun May 12, 2019 6:11 pm

I would sign Rozier and ELfrid for $16m +/- combined rather than overpay for Conley or Kemba or DRuss. Paying elite money to upper-echelon PGs never computes to winning championships.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#113 » by Wizop » Sun May 12, 2019 6:42 pm

Boneman2 wrote:I would sign Rozier and ELfrid for $16m +/- combined rather than overpay for Conley or Kemba or DRuss. Paying elite money to upper-echelon PGs never computes to winning championships.
I'd be happy with one in that age grouo, two kills Holiday's opportunity. Much better 4han chasing older big name


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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#114 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun May 12, 2019 7:13 pm

Boneman2 wrote:I would sign Rozier and ELfrid for $16m +/- combined rather than overpay for Conley or Kemba or DRuss. Paying elite money to upper-echelon PGs never computes to winning championships.


I think Elfrid could make it as a backup. I’m not sure Rozier’s role in the nba going forward. He’s not a defender. He’s not a shooter. He’s not a distributor. What is he?
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#115 » by Jake0890 » Sun May 12, 2019 8:02 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Boneman2 wrote:I would sign Rozier and ELfrid for $16m +/- combined rather than overpay for Conley or Kemba or DRuss. Paying elite money to upper-echelon PGs never computes to winning championships.


I think Elfrid could make it as a backup. I’m not sure Rozier’s role in the nba going forward. He’s not a defender. He’s not a shooter. He’s not a distributor. What is he?


Everyone likes to hate on Rozier... but he's a sparkplug of energy and makes big shots at the right time it seems. Or is that just against us?

He's like a more hard-nosed, less goofy Lance.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#116 » by pacers70 » Sun May 12, 2019 8:41 pm

Jake0890 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Boneman2 wrote:I would sign Rozier and ELfrid for $16m +/- combined rather than overpay for Conley or Kemba or DRuss. Paying elite money to upper-echelon PGs never computes to winning championships.


I think Elfrid could make it as a backup. I’m not sure Rozier’s role in the nba going forward. He’s not a defender. He’s not a shooter. He’s not a distributor. What is he?


Everyone likes to hate on Rozier... but he's a sparkplug of energy and makes big shots at the right time it seems. Or is that just against us?

He's like a more hard-nosed, less goofy Lance.


We all ready have a better offensive version of Rozier in Aaron Holiday. We don’t need Rozier.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#117 » by Jake0890 » Sun May 12, 2019 9:40 pm

pacers70 wrote:
Jake0890 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
I think Elfrid could make it as a backup. I’m not sure Rozier’s role in the nba going forward. He’s not a defender. He’s not a shooter. He’s not a distributor. What is he?


Everyone likes to hate on Rozier... but he's a sparkplug of energy and makes big shots at the right time it seems. Or is that just against us?

He's like a more hard-nosed, less goofy Lance.


We all ready have a better offensive version of Rozier in Aaron Holiday. We don’t need Rozier.


That’s a hot take. What evidence is there that Holiday is better offensively than Rozier?
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#118 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun May 12, 2019 9:58 pm

Jake0890 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Boneman2 wrote:I would sign Rozier and ELfrid for $16m +/- combined rather than overpay for Conley or Kemba or DRuss. Paying elite money to upper-echelon PGs never computes to winning championships.


I think Elfrid could make it as a backup. I’m not sure Rozier’s role in the nba going forward. He’s not a defender. He’s not a shooter. He’s not a distributor. What is he?


Everyone likes to hate on Rozier... but he's a sparkplug of energy and makes big shots at the right time it seems. Or is that just against us?

He's like a more hard-nosed, less goofy Lance.


Hard to say. He’s a career 38/35/77 shooter with an efg% below 47. A career TS% of 49%. He had a short run last year where he played well after Kyrie was injured, but he dropped off.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#119 » by pacers70 » Sun May 12, 2019 11:16 pm

Jake0890 wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
Jake0890 wrote:
Everyone likes to hate on Rozier... but he's a sparkplug of energy and makes big shots at the right time it seems. Or is that just against us?

He's like a more hard-nosed, less goofy Lance.


We all ready have a better offensive version of Rozier in Aaron Holiday. We don’t need Rozier.


That’s a hot take. What evidence is there that Holiday is better offensively than Rozier?


Just compare their career stats. Holiday only has 1 NBA season and Nate played him limited minutes, so also compare their college stats. Holiday is better in every category except 3 point shooting and Holiday shot 42% in college. He shot 33.9% last year, there’ a very good chance that he will improve on that.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#120 » by Boneman2 » Sun May 12, 2019 11:46 pm

After seeing the responses on Rozier and looking over his career stats I am having second thoughts about him, as was mentioned, he is not really a true pg but rather a classic combo. I would definitely target Elfrid or make Malcolm Brogdon an offer Milwaukee couldn't match.

If I am adding a large salary it would be for players like Randle (18m), Tobias (22m), Butler (28m) or Klay ($30m).
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