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Jokic/Sabonis comparisons

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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#41 » by Pacers_Freak » Wed May 8, 2019 3:33 pm

Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:I didnt say that...

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But you demand we draft superstars... :dontknow:
Sign

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It is really really easy to sign superstars. I wonder why we dont? :dontknow:
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#42 » by Tom White » Wed May 8, 2019 3:44 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:\
Again, we didn’t draft him. We traded the pick to San Antonio who then drafted him.


I always thought it was more along the lines of a pre-agreed to trade. In other words, there was an agreement in which we would draft Leonard FOR San Antonio in exchange for George Hill.

In any case, we wound up on the shorter end of the stick.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#43 » by Vorda » Wed May 8, 2019 3:50 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:
Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

But you demand we draft superstars... :dontknow:
Sign

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It is really really easy to sign superstars. I wonder why we dont? :dontknow:
Couse we dont want spend the money

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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#44 » by pacers33granger » Wed May 8, 2019 4:12 pm

Vorda wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
Vorda wrote:Sign

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It is really really easy to sign superstars. I wonder why we dont? :dontknow:
Couse we dont want spend the money

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When we've had space we've tried to get stars. Do you think we are calling up free agents who are guaranteed max offers and offering less than max? Or that we aren't even trying? Because both are wrong.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#45 » by pacers70 » Wed May 8, 2019 4:29 pm

Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:\
Again, we didn’t draft him. We traded the pick to San Antonio who then drafted him.


I always thought it was more along the lines of a pre-agreed to trade. In other words, there was an agreement in which we would draft Leonard FOR San Antonio in exchange for George Hill.

In any case, we wound up on the shorter end of the stick.


But it looked like a pretty good deal at the time. Hill was a local guy that was playing solid basketball. He looked like he was going to be a pretty good player and filled one of our needs as a point guard. In fact he was a pretty good player for us.

Who knew Leonard was going to be this good? Obviously 14 other teams didn't know at the time of the draft. Any time you deal with a draft, it's pretty much a crap shoot.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#46 » by pacers70 » Wed May 8, 2019 4:38 pm

Wizop wrote:
pacers70 wrote:We desperately need a star player to put next to Vic. The problem is the only star player that I think we have a chance at is Kemba. Because of that, I think we should sign Kemba. He can play off the ball, he just hasn't been able to because he hasn't had much help in Charlotte.


I'll bet beers that Kemba does not sign with us and while I don't know how we'd prove it I'd bet Pritchard takes a run at someone that hasn't been rumored at all. now he did say "all star." here are some names

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/7/30/17616436/nba-free-agency-2019-list-kevin-durant-kyrie-irving


I think Pritchard will pull a surprise. He'll bring in someone that no one has even mentioned either via trade or Free Agency.

No one had any idea about Vic and Sabonis coming here. I just hope whatever move he make turns out to be as successful.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#47 » by Pacers_Freak » Wed May 8, 2019 6:29 pm

Vorda wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
Vorda wrote:Sign

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It is really really easy to sign superstars. I wonder why we dont? :dontknow:
Couse we dont want spend the money

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Sooooo misinformed.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#48 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 8, 2019 8:12 pm

Vorda wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
Wizop wrote:
we drafted Reggie Miller, and Paul George. Danny Granger too had his knees held up. might even say that of Bender too. sure we've had misses. everyone does. p.s. 48 wins is not average.



Notice that the same teams keep picking in the lottery and never get any better, Orlando, Charlotte, Phoenix, NYK, the Cavs when they don't have Lebron, Minnesota.


Orlando played PO this year? Other frachizes have big GM problems... but all of them are waiting to draft superstar... they are not stuck in medicrity without high draft picks



Sure Orlando made the playoffs, but they got thumped and bounce they aren't going anywhere anytime soon unless some of those guys they picked like Issac and Bamba make big leaps. Talk about no point guard, how would you like to have DJ Auggie as your starter?
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#49 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 8, 2019 8:16 pm

pacers70 wrote:
Wizop wrote:
pacers70 wrote:We desperately need a star player to put next to Vic. The problem is the only star player that I think we have a chance at is Kemba. Because of that, I think we should sign Kemba. He can play off the ball, he just hasn't been able to because he hasn't had much help in Charlotte.


I'll bet beers that Kemba does not sign with us and while I don't know how we'd prove it I'd bet Pritchard takes a run at someone that hasn't been rumored at all. now he did say "all star." here are some names

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/7/30/17616436/nba-free-agency-2019-list-kevin-durant-kyrie-irving


I think Pritchard will pull a surprise. He'll bring in someone that no one has even mentioned either via trade or Free Agency.

No one had any idea about Vic and Sabonis coming here. I just hope whatever move he make turns out to be as successful.


Actually I kinda called that trade 2-3 weeks before it happened, only I was suggesting a bigger deal that would have PG and Al Jefferson for Vic, Damos and Kanter plus a #1, that would have saved the Thunder the horror of trading for Carmelo. Most people thought I was nuts, since we don't have a decent search function I can't prove that.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#50 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 8, 2019 8:19 pm

Vorda wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
Vorda wrote:Sign

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It is really really easy to sign superstars. I wonder why we dont? :dontknow:
Couse we dont want spend the money

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You know you can't force guys to sign with your team, right. If Player X doensn't want to go to Indiana we can't force him to sign. When there is a max amount you can pay the play can choose the team. And yeah I don't want to spend $34 million on a 29 year old undersized pg who's never played on a winner.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#51 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 8, 2019 8:29 pm

pacers33granger wrote:To add on to my earlier point, take a look at the teams left playing and where their top guys were drafted.

PHI: Simmons (1), Embiid (3), Harris (19), Butler (30)
TOR: Kawhi (15), lowry (24), Ibaka (24), Gasol (48)
BOS: Kyrie (1), Tatum (3), Brown (3), Horford (3)
MIL: Lopez (10), Giannis (15), Bledsoe (18), Middleton (39)
DEN: Murray (7), Harris (19), Jokic (41), Millsap (47)
GS: Durant (2), Curry (7), Klay (11), Green (43)
POR: Kanter (3), Lillard (6), Aminu (8), CJ (10)

Outside of Durant, there isn't really a top 5 pick playing like a star right now in the playoffs. And the majority of the best players were drafted outside of the lotto.



Exactly Butler and Leonard are killing it for their teams, Gasol is dominating the other centers defensively, Giannis is well Giannis, and Jokic (41) and Millsap (47) are destroying.

I was saying earlier in this thread that if we'd drafted better in 2009 to 2013 we'd be a juggernaut, could be Rudy Gobert, Turner, Kawhi, Dre Green, Victor, Domas and Teague or Jrue Holiday. Who's gonna beat that team? Maybe we wouldn't have been in a position to pick Turner, but the rest including the PG trade to OKC could very possibly happened.

You have to have good scouting and draft the best players available.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#52 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 8, 2019 8:33 pm

Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:\
Again, we didn’t draft him. We traded the pick to San Antonio who then drafted him.


I always thought it was more along the lines of a pre-agreed to trade. In other words, there was an agreement in which we would draft Leonard FOR San Antonio in exchange for George Hill.

In any case, we wound up on the shorter end of the stick.


It was agreed to before the draft began (draft order is locked in by 9am draft day). As long as San Antonio’s guy was still available at that pick, and any of our guys were not, we were to trade the pick/player they wanted picked for them, along with Erazem Lorbeks rights and the 2nd round pick that year too.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#53 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 8, 2019 8:36 pm

Vorda wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
Vorda wrote:Sign

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It is really really easy to sign superstars. I wonder why we dont? :dontknow:
Couse we dont want spend the money

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We’ve generally been more than happy to spend money to keep talent. We offered Paul George a Rose Rule extension (Supermax). We matched a max offer on Hibbert. We overpaid the market on Tyreke, West, etc. we overpaid to keep Foster, Bender, Tinsley, Jackson, Harrington, etc.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#54 » by pacers33granger » Wed May 8, 2019 8:43 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
It is really really easy to sign superstars. I wonder why we dont? :dontknow:
Couse we dont want spend the money

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We’ve generally been more than happy to spend money to keep talent. We offered Paul George a Rose Rule extension (Supermax). We matched a max offer on Hibbert. We overpaid the market on Tyreke, West, etc. we overpaid to keep Foster, Bender, Tinsley, Jackson, Harrington, etc.


While it's not a signing, you can add in the fact that we were seeking a "star" for PG when he asked out and that guy would have presumably wanted a max deal too. We were close to getting Kyrie (thank god we didn't in the end) and I believe PG was offered for another star level player or two but can't recall who off the top of my head.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#55 » by Pacers_Freak » Wed May 8, 2019 9:08 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:To add on to my earlier point, take a look at the teams left playing and where their top guys were drafted.

PHI: Simmons (1), Embiid (3), Harris (19), Butler (30)
TOR: Kawhi (15), lowry (24), Ibaka (24), Gasol (48)
BOS: Kyrie (1), Tatum (3), Brown (3), Horford (3)
MIL: Lopez (10), Giannis (15), Bledsoe (18), Middleton (39)
DEN: Murray (7), Harris (19), Jokic (41), Millsap (47)
GS: Durant (2), Curry (7), Klay (11), Green (43)
POR: Kanter (3), Lillard (6), Aminu (8), CJ (10)

Outside of Durant, there isn't really a top 5 pick playing like a star right now in the playoffs. And the majority of the best players were drafted outside of the lotto.



Exactly Butler and Leonard are killing it for their teams, Gasol is dominating the other centers defensively, Giannis is well Giannis, and Jokic (41) and Millsap (47) are destroying.

I was saying earlier in this thread that if we'd drafted better in 2009 to 2013 we'd be a juggernaut, could be Rudy Gobert, Turner, Kawhi, Dre Green, Victor, Domas and Teague or Jrue Holiday. Who's gonna beat that team? Maybe we wouldn't have been in a position to pick Turner, but the rest including the PG trade to OKC could very possibly happened.

You have to have good scouting and draft the best players available.


Yes but a bit of revisionist history. Every team passed on Jokic, Middleton, etc. I agree diamonds in the rough can be found. But, it is unrealistic to expect a team to draft perfectly. That's almost like saying sign the superstars.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#56 » by Vorda » Wed May 8, 2019 9:08 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Vorda wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
It is really really easy to sign superstars. I wonder why we dont? :dontknow:
Couse we dont want spend the money

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You know you can't force guys to sign with your team, right. If Player X doensn't want to go to Indiana we can't force him to sign. When there is a max amount you can pay the play can choose the team. And yeah I don't want to spend $34 million on a 29 year old undersized pg who's never played on a winner.
That is your problem... we have to give max to Kemba... otherwise 1st round is ours limit

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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#57 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 8, 2019 9:21 pm

Vorda wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
Vorda wrote:Couse we dont want spend the money

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You know you can't force guys to sign with your team, right. If Player X doensn't want to go to Indiana we can't force him to sign. When there is a max amount you can pay the play can choose the team. And yeah I don't want to spend $34 million on a 29 year old undersized pg who's never played on a winner.
That is your problem... we have to give max to Kemba... otherwise 1st round is ours limit

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And what IF Kemba says, "Screw off KP I don't want to play in Indiana?"

Don't take me wrong on this Vorda, you are a great fan of the Pacers. It's great to have you on our side. But I don't know if you fully understand the way these American Players view American Cities. Have you been to Indiana? It's a great place to live for normal people. But Millionaire NBA players may very well say, "Indiana is boring, what is there to do in Indianapolis?" They want California and Miami or New York or at least Chicago.

Kemba can get a $32-34 million offer from 10 teams he gets to pick his next location. The Hornets can offer him a 5th year. If he comes here he makes $34 million and maybe $2 million more in endorsements. If he goes to the Lakers he makes $34 million and $10 million or more in endorsements. This is the dynamics of the American basketball market place. I don't know for sure where you're from but I don't think Europe is like the USA in this regard.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#58 » by basketballwacko2 » Wed May 8, 2019 9:45 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:To add on to my earlier point, take a look at the teams left playing and where their top guys were drafted.

PHI: Simmons (1), Embiid (3), Harris (19), Butler (30)
TOR: Kawhi (15), lowry (24), Ibaka (24), Gasol (48)
BOS: Kyrie (1), Tatum (3), Brown (3), Horford (3)
MIL: Lopez (10), Giannis (15), Bledsoe (18), Middleton (39)
DEN: Murray (7), Harris (19), Jokic (41), Millsap (47)
GS: Durant (2), Curry (7), Klay (11), Green (43)
POR: Kanter (3), Lillard (6), Aminu (8), CJ (10)

Outside of Durant, there isn't really a top 5 pick playing like a star right now in the playoffs. And the majority of the best players were drafted outside of the lotto.



Exactly Butler and Leonard are killing it for their teams, Gasol is dominating the other centers defensively, Giannis is well Giannis, and Jokic (41) and Millsap (47) are destroying.

I was saying earlier in this thread that if we'd drafted better in 2009 to 2013 we'd be a juggernaut, could be Rudy Gobert, Turner, Kawhi, Dre Green, Victor, Domas and Teague or Jrue Holiday. Who's gonna beat that team? Maybe we wouldn't have been in a position to pick Turner, but the rest including the PG trade to OKC could very possibly happened.

You have to have good scouting and draft the best players available.


Yes but a bit of revisionist history. Every team passed on Jokic, Middleton, etc. I agree diamonds in the rough can be found. But, it is unrealistic to expect a team to draft perfectly. That's almost like saying sign the superstars.


I agree it's hindsight, I never heard of Jokic or Middleton before the draft and would have been like "Who?" But it's not my job to find these guys. I was jumping up and down and having a fit when we took Plumlee and Dremond Green was still on the board, and when we took TJ Leaf over John Collins. i was also not a fan of taking Hansbrough in 2009 when we needed a pg, or Shawne Williams in 2006 when we needed a pg.

It makes you wonder what our scouts are doing.
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#59 » by pacers70 » Thu May 9, 2019 1:53 am

basketballwacko2 wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
Wizop wrote:
I'll bet beers that Kemba does not sign with us and while I don't know how we'd prove it I'd bet Pritchard takes a run at someone that hasn't been rumored at all. now he did say "all star." here are some names

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/7/30/17616436/nba-free-agency-2019-list-kevin-durant-kyrie-irving


I think Pritchard will pull a surprise. He'll bring in someone that no one has even mentioned either via trade or Free Agency.

No one had any idea about Vic and Sabonis coming here. I just hope whatever move he make turns out to be as successful.


Actually I kinda called that trade 2-3 weeks before it happened, only I was suggesting a bigger deal that would have PG and Al Jefferson for Vic, Damos and Kanter plus a #1, that would have saved the Thunder the horror of trading for Carmelo. Most people thought I was nuts, since we don't have a decent search function I can't prove that.


Any insight as to what we should do this summer? 8-)
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Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#60 » by basketballwacko2 » Thu May 9, 2019 3:10 am

pacers70 wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
I think Pritchard will pull a surprise. He'll bring in someone that no one has even mentioned either via trade or Free Agency.

No one had any idea about Vic and Sabonis coming here. I just hope whatever move he make turns out to be as successful.


Actually I kinda called that trade 2-3 weeks before it happened, only I was suggesting a bigger deal that would have PG and Al Jefferson for Vic, Damos and Kanter plus a #1, that would have saved the Thunder the horror of trading for Carmelo. Most people thought I was nuts, since we don't have a decent search function I can't prove that.


Any insight as to what we should do this summer? 8-)



I'd eat some seemingly bad contracts for draft picks. I posted on another thread about taking Myers Leonard and Portlands pick for space. Or maybe sending TJ Leaf and our pick #18 to the Pelicans for Solo Hill and their pick #7, but I doubt they would do that. Other deals like that may be available. The grand daddy of them all is Gordon Hayward and picks for our space. After getting run by Milwaukee they might be looking to make moves. You should see the game thread on the Celtics board it's brutal. We've kicked around the idea of taking GH and the Griz pick in next years draft top 6 protected then unprotected if it's not conveyed. Most people think it's too bad of a contract but IF I could get that Memphis pick and a Boston pick I might do it.

KP was known as a wheeler dealer when he was with the Blazers and I think a lot of us expect him to be that way again.

I'm pretty sure we'll bring back Bogie and Thad other than them who knows, and as for signings unless we're bringing back DC or Cory we're gonna need a point guard.

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