Image

Jokic/Sabonis comparisons

Moderators: pacers33granger, Grang33r, Jake0890, pacerfan, boomershadow

Vorda
Senior
Posts: 574
And1: 111
Joined: Oct 02, 2017
       

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#61 » by Vorda » Thu May 9, 2019 6:26 am

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Vorda wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:

You know you can't force guys to sign with your team, right. If Player X doensn't want to go to Indiana we can't force him to sign. When there is a max amount you can pay the play can choose the team. And yeah I don't want to spend $34 million on a 29 year old undersized pg who's never played on a winner.
That is your problem... we have to give max to Kemba... otherwise 1st round is ours limit

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk


And what IF Kemba says, "Screw off KP I don't want to play in Indiana?"

Don't take me wrong on this Vorda, you are a great fan of the Pacers. It's great to have you on our side. But I don't know if you fully understand the way these American Players view American Cities. Have you been to Indiana? It's a great place to live for normal people. But Millionaire NBA players may very well say, "Indiana is boring, what is there to do in Indianapolis?" They want California and Miami or New York or at least Chicago.

Kemba can get a $32-34 million offer from 10 teams he gets to pick his next location. The Hornets can offer him a 5th year. If he comes here he makes $34 million and maybe $2 million more in endorsements. If he goes to the Lakers he makes $34 million and $10 million or more in endorsements. This is the dynamics of the American basketball market place. I don't know for sure where you're from but I don't think Europe is like the USA in this regard.


No hard feelings... in Europe money is the most important... players go everywhere... cold Moscow or hot Barcelona or Athen... I understand that there are atractive cities, but they cant all play in the biggest towns... I still think that some of them are looking quality of team... I would never go in New York if I am superstar... with Kyrie and Durant they still will not be contender... the same is Kemba in Lakers or Chicago... he has maybe 2-3 years of top level so he should look for a team to contend, otherwise he can stay in Charlotte... if endorsements are key, let it be... there are allways good role players to sign around Vic, but we have to try to sign Kemba, Middleton or Harris... we are so close to be contender... at least we have to try...
Pacers_Freak
Starter
Posts: 2,203
And1: 1,923
Joined: Oct 06, 2016
   

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#62 » by Pacers_Freak » Thu May 9, 2019 1:53 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:

Exactly Butler and Leonard are killing it for their teams, Gasol is dominating the other centers defensively, Giannis is well Giannis, and Jokic (41) and Millsap (47) are destroying.

I was saying earlier in this thread that if we'd drafted better in 2009 to 2013 we'd be a juggernaut, could be Rudy Gobert, Turner, Kawhi, Dre Green, Victor, Domas and Teague or Jrue Holiday. Who's gonna beat that team? Maybe we wouldn't have been in a position to pick Turner, but the rest including the PG trade to OKC could very possibly happened.

You have to have good scouting and draft the best players available.


Yes but a bit of revisionist history. Every team passed on Jokic, Middleton, etc. I agree diamonds in the rough can be found. But, it is unrealistic to expect a team to draft perfectly. That's almost like saying sign the superstars.


I agree it's hindsight, I never heard of Jokic or Middleton before the draft and would have been like "Who?" But it's not my job to find these guys. I was jumping up and down and having a fit when we took Plumlee and Dremond Green was still on the board, and when we took TJ Leaf over John Collins. i was also not a fan of taking Hansbrough in 2009 when we needed a pg, or Shawne Williams in 2006 when we needed a pg.

It makes you wonder what our scouts are doing.


I was also jumping up and down when we took a 2nd team all WAC player from Fresno State. I am an awful draft guy. I do think that with where we have drafted we have done a pretty solid job. Anytime you are in the 20s it is going to be hit or miss. Everytime we have gotten up around 10 we hit really well. After having time to digest (for most of them) here would be my draft grades this decade:

2010: Paul George (10th) A+
2011: Pick Traded
2012: Miles Plumlee (26th) D
2013: Solomon Hill (23rd) B-
2014: Pick Traded
2015: Myles Turner (11th) A+
2016: Pick Traded
2017: TJ Leaf (18th) D
2018: Aaron Holliday (23rd) Really early B+
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,386
And1: 3,015
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#63 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 9, 2019 2:29 pm

Vorda wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
Vorda wrote:That is your problem... we have to give max to Kemba... otherwise 1st round is ours limit

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk


And what IF Kemba says, "Screw off KP I don't want to play in Indiana?"

Don't take me wrong on this Vorda, you are a great fan of the Pacers. It's great to have you on our side. But I don't know if you fully understand the way these American Players view American Cities. Have you been to Indiana? It's a great place to live for normal people. But Millionaire NBA players may very well say, "Indiana is boring, what is there to do in Indianapolis?" They want California and Miami or New York or at least Chicago.

Kemba can get a $32-34 million offer from 10 teams he gets to pick his next location. The Hornets can offer him a 5th year. If he comes here he makes $34 million and maybe $2 million more in endorsements. If he goes to the Lakers he makes $34 million and $10 million or more in endorsements. This is the dynamics of the American basketball market place. I don't know for sure where you're from but I don't think Europe is like the USA in this regard.


No hard feelings... in Europe money is the most important... players go everywhere... cold Moscow or hot Barcelona or Athen... I understand that there are atractive cities, but they cant all play in the biggest towns... I still think that some of them are looking quality of team... I would never go in New York if I am superstar... with Kyrie and Durant they still will not be contender... the same is Kemba in Lakers or Chicago... he has maybe 2-3 years of top level so he should look for a team to contend, otherwise he can stay in Charlotte... if endorsements are key, let it be... there are allways good role players to sign around Vic, but we have to try to sign Kemba, Middleton or Harris... we are so close to be contender... at least we have to try...



As far as I know, every single summer I’ve read or heard Donnie Walsh, Larry Bird, and Kevin Pritchard day the same thing of “obviously, we’re going to call the top guys and let them know we’d love to have them”. It’s not a matter of us not willing to have them. It’s as others have said before. These guys want to play in fun cities, or where they’re from. Or, they want the legend building status of being the guy to bring basketball success back to NYC for the first time in SO long. Or the guy to bring Showtime back to the Lakers. For them to want to come to Indy is a tough situation. We have to have max cap space, and still have a successful looking team for them to jump right into. And to have a successful, cheap, team is a very tough order. We’re not going to get the guys to come here with no one else around and the assumption that we’ll eventually build around them.

The other tough situation is there may have been successful guys in the past that would’ve come here for a max, but it likely would’ve killed us over the length of the deal. We also have to be protective. If we sign Kemba, and he’s only successful for one year and then his body breaks down, we’re in an awfully tough spot. We’ll have financially locked ourselves up with bad contracts and be in a position of not being able to build around Vic for his prime. So, we have to not only be willing to pay people a max, we have to be diligently careful to give the right money to the right people.
Vorda
Senior
Posts: 574
And1: 111
Joined: Oct 02, 2017
       

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#64 » by Vorda » Thu May 9, 2019 2:38 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
And what IF Kemba says, "Screw off KP I don't want to play in Indiana?"

Don't take me wrong on this Vorda, you are a great fan of the Pacers. It's great to have you on our side. But I don't know if you fully understand the way these American Players view American Cities. Have you been to Indiana? It's a great place to live for normal people. But Millionaire NBA players may very well say, "Indiana is boring, what is there to do in Indianapolis?" They want California and Miami or New York or at least Chicago.

Kemba can get a $32-34 million offer from 10 teams he gets to pick his next location. The Hornets can offer him a 5th year. If he comes here he makes $34 million and maybe $2 million more in endorsements. If he goes to the Lakers he makes $34 million and $10 million or more in endorsements. This is the dynamics of the American basketball market place. I don't know for sure where you're from but I don't think Europe is like the USA in this regard.


No hard feelings... in Europe money is the most important... players go everywhere... cold Moscow or hot Barcelona or Athen... I understand that there are atractive cities, but they cant all play in the biggest towns... I still think that some of them are looking quality of team... I would never go in New York if I am superstar... with Kyrie and Durant they still will not be contender... the same is Kemba in Lakers or Chicago... he has maybe 2-3 years of top level so he should look for a team to contend, otherwise he can stay in Charlotte... if endorsements are key, let it be... there are allways good role players to sign around Vic, but we have to try to sign Kemba, Middleton or Harris... we are so close to be contender... at least we have to try...



As far as I know, every single summer I’ve read or heard Donnie Walsh, Larry Bird, and Kevin Pritchard day the same thing of “obviously, we’re going to call the top guys and let them know we’d love to have them”. It’s not a matter of us not willing to have them. It’s as others have said before. These guys want to play in fun cities, or where they’re from. Or, they want the legend building status of being the guy to bring basketball success back to NYC for the first time in SO long. Or the guy to bring Showtime back to the Lakers. For them to want to come to Indy is a tough situation. We have to have max cap space, and still have a successful looking team for them to jump right into. And to have a successful, cheap, team is a very tough order. We’re not going to get the guys to come here with no one else around and the assumption that we’ll eventually build around them.

The other tough situation is there may have been successful guys in the past that would’ve come here for a max, but it likely would’ve killed us over the length of the deal. We also have to be protective. If we sign Kemba, and he’s only successful for one year and then his body breaks down, we’re in an awfully tough spot. We’ll have financially locked ourselves up with bad contracts and be in a position of not being able to build around Vic for his prime. So, we have to not only be willing to pay people a max, we have to be diligently careful to give the right money to the right people.
We go all in next year with Kemba... better to live one year like a king than 10 years like a rabbit

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,386
And1: 3,015
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#65 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 9, 2019 2:57 pm

Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
No hard feelings... in Europe money is the most important... players go everywhere... cold Moscow or hot Barcelona or Athen... I understand that there are atractive cities, but they cant all play in the biggest towns... I still think that some of them are looking quality of team... I would never go in New York if I am superstar... with Kyrie and Durant they still will not be contender... the same is Kemba in Lakers or Chicago... he has maybe 2-3 years of top level so he should look for a team to contend, otherwise he can stay in Charlotte... if endorsements are key, let it be... there are allways good role players to sign around Vic, but we have to try to sign Kemba, Middleton or Harris... we are so close to be contender... at least we have to try...



As far as I know, every single summer I’ve read or heard Donnie Walsh, Larry Bird, and Kevin Pritchard day the same thing of “obviously, we’re going to call the top guys and let them know we’d love to have them”. It’s not a matter of us not willing to have them. It’s as others have said before. These guys want to play in fun cities, or where they’re from. Or, they want the legend building status of being the guy to bring basketball success back to NYC for the first time in SO long. Or the guy to bring Showtime back to the Lakers. For them to want to come to Indy is a tough situation. We have to have max cap space, and still have a successful looking team for them to jump right into. And to have a successful, cheap, team is a very tough order. We’re not going to get the guys to come here with no one else around and the assumption that we’ll eventually build around them.

The other tough situation is there may have been successful guys in the past that would’ve come here for a max, but it likely would’ve killed us over the length of the deal. We also have to be protective. If we sign Kemba, and he’s only successful for one year and then his body breaks down, we’re in an awfully tough spot. We’ll have financially locked ourselves up with bad contracts and be in a position of not being able to build around Vic for his prime. So, we have to not only be willing to pay people a max, we have to be diligently careful to give the right money to the right people.
We go all in next year with Kemba... better to live one year like a king than 10 years like a rabbit

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk



Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.
pacers70
Junior
Posts: 285
And1: 66
Joined: Dec 20, 2011
       

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#66 » by pacers70 » Thu May 9, 2019 3:16 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

As far as I know, every single summer I’ve read or heard Donnie Walsh, Larry Bird, and Kevin Pritchard day the same thing of “obviously, we’re going to call the top guys and let them know we’d love to have them”. It’s not a matter of us not willing to have them. It’s as others have said before. These guys want to play in fun cities, or where they’re from. Or, they want the legend building status of being the guy to bring basketball success back to NYC for the first time in SO long. Or the guy to bring Showtime back to the Lakers. For them to want to come to Indy is a tough situation. We have to have max cap space, and still have a successful looking team for them to jump right into. And to have a successful, cheap, team is a very tough order. We’re not going to get the guys to come here with no one else around and the assumption that we’ll eventually build around them.

The other tough situation is there may have been successful guys in the past that would’ve come here for a max, but it likely would’ve killed us over the length of the deal. We also have to be protective. If we sign Kemba, and he’s only successful for one year and then his body breaks down, we’re in an awfully tough spot. We’ll have financially locked ourselves up with bad contracts and be in a position of not being able to build around Vic for his prime. So, we have to not only be willing to pay people a max, we have to be diligently careful to give the right money to the right people.
We go all in next year with Kemba... better to live one year like a king than 10 years like a rabbit

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk



Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.


Who says that bench gets run off the court? Holiday, Sumner, and Alize are just finished their 1st or 2nd year in the league. Leaf just turned 22 years old. They should improve. We would have exceptions to help the bench too. We still have the bi-annual exception available and either the MLE or room exception.
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,386
And1: 3,015
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#67 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 9, 2019 3:22 pm

pacers70 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:We go all in next year with Kemba... better to live one year like a king than 10 years like a rabbit

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk



Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.


Who says that bench gets run off the court? Holiday, Sumner, and Alize are just finished their 1st or 2nd year in the league. Leaf just turned 22 years old. They should improve. We would have exceptions to help the bench too. We still have the bi-annual exception available and either the MLE or room exception.



If we use cap space to sign Kemba, we lose the full MLE and the BAE. We’d have just the room exception and vet minimum exceptions. Think of them this way, the BAE is tied to the MLE, and you can only have those OR cap space and the room exception.

But I wouldn’t bet money on that bench being a plus asset night in and night out over the course of a season. And I know most of them are young and could grow like crazy, but would you be willing to bet an all-in move like all cap space for Kemba with that bench?
pacers33granger
Forum Mod - Pacers
Forum Mod - Pacers
Posts: 11,725
And1: 4,728
Joined: Sep 26, 2006
 

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#68 » by pacers33granger » Thu May 9, 2019 3:26 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.


I still go back and forth on Kemba. But our bench getting run off the floor shouldn't really be a consideration imo. For one, our bench outside of Domas got run off the floor routinely anyways and Domas would presumably be playing a lot with the bench still even if he's starting.

Also, it seems likely that at least Holiday/Doug/Leaf will be rotation pieces on the bench no matter what. Expecting anything out of Sumner/Alize is likely wishful thinking, but I'm not sure they'd play much once Vic is healthy anyways. That lineup has 3 guys who can hold down the PF/C positions nearly every night (plus Bogie in small ball lineups), 2 PGs (with one that can shift to SG in spurts), a SG that can play some PG, and two bigger wings that can shoot. Given how Nate runs his rotations, we'd probably be fine and that's not accounting for the room exception and our draft pick.

And we've seen again in the playoffs that depth is helpful and sometimes necessary, but it's the top end talent that actually wins. Still not sure about Kemba though for the reasons you pointed out and some others. One reason I'm warming up to it more often is the fact that KP's presser made it seem unlikely we make a competitive offer to Thad and that the rest of the non-Bogie free agents don't seem to factor in much. I'd prefer to dump all the money into a legit all star over dumping most of the money into a fringe all star or several role players like Doug.
Vorda
Senior
Posts: 574
And1: 111
Joined: Oct 02, 2017
       

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#69 » by Vorda » Thu May 9, 2019 3:31 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

As far as I know, every single summer I’ve read or heard Donnie Walsh, Larry Bird, and Kevin Pritchard day the same thing of “obviously, we’re going to call the top guys and let them know we’d love to have them”. It’s not a matter of us not willing to have them. It’s as others have said before. These guys want to play in fun cities, or where they’re from. Or, they want the legend building status of being the guy to bring basketball success back to NYC for the first time in SO long. Or the guy to bring Showtime back to the Lakers. For them to want to come to Indy is a tough situation. We have to have max cap space, and still have a successful looking team for them to jump right into. And to have a successful, cheap, team is a very tough order. We’re not going to get the guys to come here with no one else around and the assumption that we’ll eventually build around them.

The other tough situation is there may have been successful guys in the past that would’ve come here for a max, but it likely would’ve killed us over the length of the deal. We also have to be protective. If we sign Kemba, and he’s only successful for one year and then his body breaks down, we’re in an awfully tough spot. We’ll have financially locked ourselves up with bad contracts and be in a position of not being able to build around Vic for his prime. So, we have to not only be willing to pay people a max, we have to be diligently careful to give the right money to the right people.
We go all in next year with Kemba... better to live one year like a king than 10 years like a rabbit

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk



Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.
Cool... we can draft Bitadze as a back up center... that would be great

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk
Topofthekey
Senior
Posts: 562
And1: 193
Joined: Nov 18, 2017

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#70 » by Topofthekey » Thu May 9, 2019 4:35 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.

Easy, don't sign Bogie

Use the 18.375m to sign players like Danny Green and Dewayne Dedmon instead, say Danny Green for 10. 375m, and Dewayne Dedmon for 8m

The roster will then look like:

Kemba/Holiday/Sumner
Vic/Doug/Sumner
Green/Doug/Alize
Myles/Leaf/Alize
Domas/Dedmon/Leaf

I'd argue that Green's defense is a lot more useful than whatever Bogie brings anyway
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,386
And1: 3,015
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#71 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 9, 2019 4:53 pm

Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:We go all in next year with Kemba... better to live one year like a king than 10 years like a rabbit

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk



Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.
Cool... we can draft Bitadze as a back up center... that would be great

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk


If he’s the best available, absolutely! Do you think he can come straight into the nba and be an immediate impact player off the bench? Or will he possibly need another year or two, either overseas, or to develop, before he can produce?
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,386
And1: 3,015
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#72 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 9, 2019 4:55 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.

Easy, don't sign Bogie

Use the 18.375m to sign players like Danny Green and Dewayne Dedmon instead, say Danny Green for 10. 375m, and Dewayne Dedmon for 8m

The roster will then look like:

Kemba/Holiday/Sumner
Vic/Doug/Sumner
Green/Doug/Alize
Myles/Leaf/Alize
Domas/Dedmon/Leaf

I'd argue that Green's defense is a lot more useful than whatever Bogie brings anyway



If you don’t sign Bogie, you only have the $13m of his cap hold available. The $18.375m is what we could offer him via his early bird rights and exceeding the cap. So you’re looking at either Bogie for up to $18.375m, or Green for $13m.
Pacers_Freak
Starter
Posts: 2,203
And1: 1,923
Joined: Oct 06, 2016
   

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#73 » by Pacers_Freak » Thu May 9, 2019 5:18 pm

pacers70 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:We go all in next year with Kemba... better to live one year like a king than 10 years like a rabbit

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk



Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.


Who says that bench gets run off the court? Holiday, Sumner, and Alize are just finished their 1st or 2nd year in the league. Leaf just turned 22 years old. They should improve. We would have exceptions to help the bench too. We still have the bi-annual exception available and either the MLE or room exception.


I think that bench gets run to the MF'in woodshed. Sumner, Leaf, Alize have done nothing to show that they are ready for NBA every night minutes. I hope they all turn out to be NBA rotational players. That would be great for us. The odds of that happening are astronomically low.
Vorda
Senior
Posts: 574
And1: 111
Joined: Oct 02, 2017
       

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#74 » by Vorda » Thu May 9, 2019 5:55 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.
Cool... we can draft Bitadze as a back up center... that would be great

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk


If he’s the best available, absolutely! Do you think he can come straight into the nba and be an immediate impact player off the bench? Or will he possibly need another year or two, either overseas, or to develop, before he can produce?
He can be bench player... he played in Euroleague this year... he has some high level experiance already

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk
pacers70
Junior
Posts: 285
And1: 66
Joined: Dec 20, 2011
       

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#75 » by pacers70 » Thu May 9, 2019 6:04 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

Well, that’s where it’s tough. You think just adding Kemba is enough to win a championship? IF you’re lucky and Bojan takes just the $18.375m max we can offer him, we’re locked into a lineup of:
Kemba/Holiday
Oladipo/Sumner
Bojan/McDermott
Sabonis/Leaf
Myles/Alize

With just the room exception and our 1st round pick to fill the roster. That’s a really solid starting lineup if we can figure out how to play Myles and Sabonis together. But that’s a bench that gets run off the court night in and night out. And if Kemba burns out a year into the deal, or two years in when he’s well into his 30’s? I mean, that’s a solid 2-4 years of just not being able to re tool.

I think Kemba is really good. I don’t think he’s the kind of piece that wins us a championship next year. Or really, any year he’ll be here.


Who says that bench gets run off the court? Holiday, Sumner, and Alize are just finished their 1st or 2nd year in the league. Leaf just turned 22 years old. They should improve. We would have exceptions to help the bench too. We still have the bi-annual exception available and either the MLE or room exception.


I think that bench gets run to the MF'in woodshed. Sumner, Leaf, Alize have done nothing to show that they are ready for NBA every night minutes. I hope they all turn out to be NBA rotational players. That would be great for us. The odds of that happening are astronomically low.


Our bench this past season was CoJo/Evans/McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf.

Leaf was part of the rotation although he only played 6-8 mpg. There is no reason to think that he can't improve on that. Holiday got some rotation minutes and looked promising. There is no reason why he can't improve either. We will still have McDermott. Sabonis would be playing a lot of minutes with the bench. In theory Turner would start at Center and play 30-32 mpg. Sabonis would start at PF and then slide over as backup Center, consequently he would be playing 16-18 mpg as the backup Center with the bench.

Our backup front line would still be McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf. The only difference would be that Leaf would play a few more minutes and someone else would have to pick up a few minutes. That could be Alize, maybe we slide Bogey over as a small ball 4 or we sign a low cost veteran to get a few minutes. While our bench would not be great, I don't think it would be as bad as some seem to think.
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,386
And1: 3,015
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#76 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 9, 2019 7:39 pm

pacers70 wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
Who says that bench gets run off the court? Holiday, Sumner, and Alize are just finished their 1st or 2nd year in the league. Leaf just turned 22 years old. They should improve. We would have exceptions to help the bench too. We still have the bi-annual exception available and either the MLE or room exception.


I think that bench gets run to the MF'in woodshed. Sumner, Leaf, Alize have done nothing to show that they are ready for NBA every night minutes. I hope they all turn out to be NBA rotational players. That would be great for us. The odds of that happening are astronomically low.


Our bench this past season was CoJo/Evans/McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf.

Leaf was part of the rotation although he only played 6-8 mpg. There is no reason to think that he can't improve on that. Holiday got some rotation minutes and looked promising. There is no reason why he can't improve either. We will still have McDermott. Sabonis would be playing a lot of minutes with the bench. In theory Turner would start at Center and play 30-32 mpg. Sabonis would start at PF and then slide over as backup Center, consequently he would be playing 16-18 mpg as the backup Center with the bench.

Our backup front line would still be McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf. The only difference would be that Leaf would play a few more minutes and someone else would have to pick up a few minutes. That could be Alize, maybe we slide Bogey over as a small ball 4 or we sign a low cost veteran to get a few minutes. While our bench would not be great, I don't think it would be as bad as some seem to think.



It’s an interesting argument that we’re saying we’ll just play the starters more and make them play the bench minutes too. Any worries that we’ll burn some of the starters out? Or, by over staggering, are we going to play Alize with the starters so we can keep Dom with the bench for the majority of his minutes to protect them?
Pacers_Freak
Starter
Posts: 2,203
And1: 1,923
Joined: Oct 06, 2016
   

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#77 » by Pacers_Freak » Thu May 9, 2019 7:42 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers70 wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
I think that bench gets run to the MF'in woodshed. Sumner, Leaf, Alize have done nothing to show that they are ready for NBA every night minutes. I hope they all turn out to be NBA rotational players. That would be great for us. The odds of that happening are astronomically low.


Our bench this past season was CoJo/Evans/McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf.

Leaf was part of the rotation although he only played 6-8 mpg. There is no reason to think that he can't improve on that. Holiday got some rotation minutes and looked promising. There is no reason why he can't improve either. We will still have McDermott. Sabonis would be playing a lot of minutes with the bench. In theory Turner would start at Center and play 30-32 mpg. Sabonis would start at PF and then slide over as backup Center, consequently he would be playing 16-18 mpg as the backup Center with the bench.

Our backup front line would still be McDermott/Sabonis/Leaf. The only difference would be that Leaf would play a few more minutes and someone else would have to pick up a few minutes. That could be Alize, maybe we slide Bogey over as a small ball 4 or we sign a low cost veteran to get a few minutes. While our bench would not be great, I don't think it would be as bad as some seem to think.



It’s an interesting argument that we’re saying we’ll just play the starters more and make them play the bench minutes too. Any worries that we’ll burn some of the starters out? Or, by over staggering, are we going to play Alize with the starters so we can keep Dom with the bench for the majority of his minutes to protect them?


Exactly. The main complaint of Nate in game 4 was he played the starters too much and we ran out of gas. That was an elimination game. Now the thought process is to do that for 82 games???
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,386
And1: 3,015
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#78 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 9, 2019 7:43 pm

Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:Cool... we can draft Bitadze as a back up center... that would be great

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk


If he’s the best available, absolutely! Do you think he can come straight into the nba and be an immediate impact player off the bench? Or will he possibly need another year or two, either overseas, or to develop, before he can produce?
He can be bench player... he played in Euroleague this year... he has some high level experiance already

Poslano sa mog SM-A510F koristeći Tapatalk


Like major NCAA experience, that doesn’t always equate to immediate impact though. Do you think he has the legitimate ability to defend at an nba level immediately, and contribute offensively? It’s not an insult either. A LOT of guys from America or elsewhere have needed a year or two to get the hang of nba play, or have just needed another year of physical growth before they can play night in and night out in the nba. And even if he takes another year or two of seasoning, either in the Gleague or overseas, that doesn’t necessarily mean I still wouldn’t draft him either, especially if I still have Dom and Myles. That’s kind of the luxury of having good players.
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,386
And1: 3,015
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#79 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu May 9, 2019 7:47 pm

Don’t get me wrong though, I’d still love to get a lot of minutes over the course of the season for Holiday, Sumner, Alize, and Leaf. I just assume that there’s going to be a ton of growing pains by doing so, and that more often than not, that lineup, with Dougie, will be more likely to lose us games (or cost us points) rather than winning us games (or maintaining/building leads). That’s all.
basketballwacko2
RealGM
Posts: 14,828
And1: 2,003
Joined: May 11, 2002
Location: Just outside of No where.
     

Re: Jokic/Sabonis comparisons 

Post#80 » by basketballwacko2 » Thu May 9, 2019 7:50 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
And what IF Kemba says, "Screw off KP I don't want to play in Indiana?"

Don't take me wrong on this Vorda, you are a great fan of the Pacers. It's great to have you on our side. But I don't know if you fully understand the way these American Players view American Cities. Have you been to Indiana? It's a great place to live for normal people. But Millionaire NBA players may very well say, "Indiana is boring, what is there to do in Indianapolis?" They want California and Miami or New York or at least Chicago.

Kemba can get a $32-34 million offer from 10 teams he gets to pick his next location. The Hornets can offer him a 5th year. If he comes here he makes $34 million and maybe $2 million more in endorsements. If he goes to the Lakers he makes $34 million and $10 million or more in endorsements. This is the dynamics of the American basketball market place. I don't know for sure where you're from but I don't think Europe is like the USA in this regard.


No hard feelings... in Europe money is the most important... players go everywhere... cold Moscow or hot Barcelona or Athen... I understand that there are atractive cities, but they cant all play in the biggest towns... I still think that some of them are looking quality of team... I would never go in New York if I am superstar... with Kyrie and Durant they still will not be contender... the same is Kemba in Lakers or Chicago... he has maybe 2-3 years of top level so he should look for a team to contend, otherwise he can stay in Charlotte... if endorsements are key, let it be... there are allways good role players to sign around Vic, but we have to try to sign Kemba, Middleton or Harris... we are so close to be contender... at least we have to try...



As far as I know, every single summer I’ve read or heard Donnie Walsh, Larry Bird, and Kevin Pritchard day the same thing of “obviously, we’re going to call the top guys and let them know we’d love to have them”. It’s not a matter of us not willing to have them. It’s as others have said before. These guys want to play in fun cities, or where they’re from. Or, they want the legend building status of being the guy to bring basketball success back to NYC for the first time in SO long. Or the guy to bring Showtime back to the Lakers. For them to want to come to Indy is a tough situation. We have to have max cap space, and still have a successful looking team for them to jump right into. And to have a successful, cheap, team is a very tough order. We’re not going to get the guys to come here with no one else around and the assumption that we’ll eventually build around them.

The other tough situation is there may have been successful guys in the past that would’ve come here for a max, but it likely would’ve killed us over the length of the deal. We also have to be protective. If we sign Kemba, and he’s only successful for one year and then his body breaks down, we’re in an awfully tough spot. We’ll have financially locked ourselves up with bad contracts and be in a position of not being able to build around Vic for his prime. So, we have to not only be willing to pay people a max, we have to be diligently careful to give the right money to the right people.


That's what gives me the Heebe-Jeebe's!

Return to Indiana Pacers