Off Season Targets: Who interests you? Who should we keep an eye on?

[8305]

Trading Turner and bringing Horford in on a big money 4 year deal has got to be one of the dumbest strategies I've seen attributed to the Pacers.

[Wizop]

Shams reports Conley to Jazz is on.

[Tom White]

Shams reports Cpnley to Jazz is on.

I saw that. It appears the Griz will get quite a haul - Two firsts and three players including Korver.

[Pacersike]

I've heard the Ricky Rubio rumors. And while I don't think he should be plan A, I think he is a solid plan C if we strike out on other opportunities.

I approve. Kemba and Russell should be targets but realistically spoken, not the FA's Indiana usually is able to sign.

Rubio has the right age 29-30-31-32 to help the Pacers win games for the next 4 years. Conley is a bit too old for our roster.

The Utah Jazz won 50 games last season, surrounding Rubio with a struggling Mitchell and 2 bigs with almost no range at all.
Sabonis will improve his range again next season, no doubt about that.

He is a good defender and his lack of range shouldn't be a big problem with so many bigs who can hit trees.

This would allow us to trade Turner for a better defensive forward and surround Sabonis with good defenders or still believe in the impossible to happen and start Sabonis next to Turner

[Scoot McGroot]

I've heard the Ricky Rubio rumors. And while I don't think he should be plan A, I think he is a solid plan C if we strike out on other opportunities.

I approve. Kemba and Russell should be targets but realistically spoken, not the FA's Indiana usually is able to sign.

Rubio has the right age 29-30-31-32 to help the Pacers win games for the next 4 years. Conley is a bit too old for our roster.

The Utah Jazz won 50 games last season, surrounding Rubio with a struggling Mitchell and 2 bigs with almost no range at all.
Sabonis will improve his range again next season, no doubt about that.

He is a good defender and his lack of range shouldn't be a big problem with so many bigs who can hit trees.

This would allow us to trade Turner for a better defensive forward and surround Sabonis with good defenders or still believe in the impossible to happen and start Sabonis next to Turner

Seems weird to say Rubios lack of range won’t hurt us with so many bigs who hit threes, but then trade away our big that can hit threes (and be a defensive player of the year) and keep the big that has shown he shouldn’t shoot 3’s at any usable rate.

If we run a Rubio/Dom pick and roll system in our starting lineup, we’re essentially relegating Vic to be a 3 pt specialist as there will be no room in the lane.

[8305]

If Boston is in the market for a center what would we want from them in a Sabonis trade?

[Pacersike]

Seems weird to say Rubios lack of range won’t hurt us with so many bigs who hit threes, but then trade away our big that can hit threes (and be a defensive player of the year) and keep the big that has shown he shouldn’t shoot 3’s at any usable rate.

If we run a Rubio/Dom pick and roll system in our starting lineup, we’re essentially relegating Vic to be a 3 pt specialist as there will be no room in the lane.

Was Brooke Lopez draining trees when he was 22 years old? Al Horford? Marc Gasol? Turner can hit trees ya, but implying Sabonis shouldn't in the years to come, is a bit shortsighted. Sabonis actually can win MIP, Turner DPOY not. ? Myles is a shotblocker lacking some other defensive tools like strength to be in the DPOY conversation.

Have you read my post and the part where I mention Favors and Gobert? They do exactly what Sabonis does, score inside. That's 2 bigs, not 1. Sabonis and Rubio will be good enough together. There will be room. And ya, I think Sabonis will develop better range.

Get a 4 who can hit trees and BoBo and there will be plenty of spacing. Oladipo not having to carry the creating offense load, will help his game, defense. Do I want a better shooting point guard than Rubio? Sure, but I want Zion too.

Signing a player like Rubio in free agency, is a win for me, because I'm not expecting bigger things to happen.

[pacers33granger]

I'm fine with Rubio as a fallback option. His shooting is a concern, but he brings a lot of other things we could use. Hopefully he comes relatively cheap as well.

I'm not fine with Horford really though. I don't think we're an actual option for him either way. But he doesn't fit where we're at and years 3/4 of a 4/100 deal will likely be more than he's worth by a good margin.

[Scoot McGroot]

Seems weird to say Rubios lack of range won’t hurt us with so many bigs who hit threes, but then trade away our big that can hit threes (and be a defensive player of the year) and keep the big that has shown he shouldn’t shoot 3’s at any usable rate.

If we run a Rubio/Dom pick and roll system in our starting lineup, we’re essentially relegating Vic to be a 3 pt specialist as there will be no room in the lane.

Was Brooke Lopez draining trees when he was 22 years old? Al Horford? Marc Gasol? Turner can hit trees ya, but implying Sabonis shouldn't in the years to come, is a bit shortsighted. Sabonis actually can win MIP, Turner DPOY not. ? Myles is a shotblocker lacking some other defensive tools like strength to be in the DPOY conversation.

Myles has absolutely been in the DPOY conversation this year in the general media, and generally been mentioned as a future DPOY finalist and contender, but is likely to come behind Gobert this year, and maybe more into the future. Dom could absolutely win the MIP this year, but is likely to come behind one of the Clippers. Does either player coming behind someone else mean they're never going to win that? Or that they're not either DPOY caliber players or MIP caliber players? No. As for Brook and such learning to shoot 3's? Yes. Brook learned. He started in the NBA when centers didn't shoot 3's and now they have to. Dom came up where big men shot with range, and they tried to have him do it in OKC, and he was a terrible fit for it. It's kind of why he was devalued and we were able to get him in trade. We then pulled him from the arc and he was in a much better position to succeed.

Have you read my post and the part where I mention Favors and Gobert? They do exactly what Sabonis does, score inside. That's 2 bigs, not 1. Sabonis and Rubio will be good enough together. There will be room. And ya, I think Sabonis will develop better range.

Get a 4 who can hit trees and BoBo and there will be plenty of spacing. Oladipo not having to carry the creating offense load, will help his game, defense. Do I want a better shooting point guard than Rubio? Sure, but I want Zion too.

Signing a player like Rubio in free agency, is a win for me, because I'm not expecting bigger things to happen.

If the consideration is just Rubio versus a vet minimum guy, sure. Why not. If the consideration is a Rubio versus a Russell, or Beverley, or even a Collison, it's a lot tougher. He is a great passer. But teams are starting to figure out they just need to drop off him, and he will not shoot, nor will he drive to the lane. As Caitlin Cooper explained:
https://www.indycornrows.com/2019/6/18/18684108/a-rubio-oladipo-backcourt-for-the-pacers

Additionally, though defenders ducked under screens on nearly 20 percent of his pick-and-rolls, Rubio passed on over half of his drives and made only 18 pull-up three-point field goals in 66 attempts, meaning he finished the season with a comparable shot volume on those looks to that of rookie Aaron Holiday (65) in his role as third-string point guard. Reluctant to take and make that shot while also prone to being ignored off ball and unlikely to pose much of a threat one-on-one, Rubio doesn’t exactly track as an ideal backcourt partner for Victor Oladipo, who already struggled last season with increased defensive attention when teams forced him to drive into rotation.

Oladipo is indeed score-first, and Rubio pass-first, but those roles could end up being adversely reversed by force in a playoff setting, if teams purposefully funnel shots to the latter when the former has the ball in his hands.

[Scoot McGroot]

Seems weird to say Rubios lack of range won’t hurt us with so many bigs who hit threes, but then trade away our big that can hit threes (and be a defensive player of the year) and keep the big that has shown he shouldn’t shoot 3’s at any usable rate.

If we run a Rubio/Dom pick and roll system in our starting lineup, we’re essentially relegating Vic to be a 3 pt specialist as there will be no room in the lane.

Was Brooke Lopez draining trees when he was 22 years old? Al Horford? Marc Gasol? Turner can hit trees ya, but implying Sabonis shouldn't in the years to come, is a bit shortsighted. Sabonis actually can win MIP, Turner DPOY not. ? Myles is a shotblocker lacking some other defensive tools like strength to be in the DPOY conversation.

Have you read my post and the part where I mention Favors and Gobert? They do exactly what Sabonis does, score inside. That's 2 bigs, not 1. Sabonis and Rubio will be good enough together. There will be room. And ya, I think Sabonis will develop better range.

Get a 4 who can hit trees and BoBo and there will be plenty of spacing. Oladipo not having to carry the creating offense load, will help his game, defense. Do I want a better shooting point guard than Rubio? Sure, but I want Zion too.

Signing a player like Rubio in free agency, is a win for me, because I'm not expecting bigger things to happen.

I'll take him over Joseph. But he's a 3rd option for him in PG free agency, not a first. And certainly not the means for me to trade away Myles Turner. Myles is cost controlled and on a GREAT contract. We locked him up early and got a bargain. I would not expect the same of Sabonis. Sheer inflation would mean that Dom's contract will likely be 5-10% more, even if he took the same "rate" as Myles.

[Pacersike]

I'll take him over Joseph. But he's a 3rd option for him in PG free agency, not a first. And certainly not the means for me to trade away Myles Turner. Myles is cost controlled and on a GREAT contract. We locked him up early and got a bargain. I would not expect the same of Sabonis. Sheer inflation would mean that Dom's contract will likely be 5-10% more, even if he took the same "rate" as Myles.

I'll reply to what I understand. Trading Myles (or Sabonis) is always a good option to improve the team IMO, Rubio or no Rubio.
Sabonis doesn't have a new contract, nor do we know how much he improves again this offseason. For all we know he becomes an allstar next season or doesn't improve at all. To me, that is hugely important to how I will value his next contract. Right now, we can only guess what it would be like. It could be "greater" than that of Turner. Or not. I just want to keep the player who I think will be the better player in the long run. Sabonis IMO. The hell I care if he gets the max if he improves again similar to how he has improved over the last couple of years.

[Scoot McGroot]

I'll take him over Joseph. But he's a 3rd option for him in PG free agency, not a first. And certainly not the means for me to trade away Myles Turner. Myles is cost controlled and on a GREAT contract. We locked him up early and got a bargain. I would not expect the same of Sabonis. Sheer inflation would mean that Dom's contract will likely be 5-10% more, even if he took the same "rate" as Myles.

I'll reply to what I understand. Trading Myles (or Sabonis) is always a good option to improve the team IMO, Rubio or no Rubio.
Sabonis doesn't have a new contract, nor do we know how much he improves again this offseason. For all we know he becomes an allstar next season or doesn't improve at all. To me, that is hugely important to how I will value his next contract. Right now, we can only guess what it would be like. It could be "greater" than that of Turner. Or not. I just want to keep the player who I think will be the better player in the long run. Sabonis IMO. The hell I care if he gets the max if he improves again similar to how he has improved over the last couple of years.

I definitely think that both will be very good players in the long-term. I think that Sabonis' skill set would be, in theory, easier, or cheaper, to replace than Myles' skill set. A center that is getting more mobile, while getting bigger, like Myles, that can hit the 3 reliably, is getting good at the pick and pop, can roll, and can change a game defensively at the rim, while now being able to side step on the perimeter and stay with wings? That's what the kids refer to as a "unicorn". It's just so rare. Dom is really, really good, too. Ideally, I'd love for both to play together. They both bring so much, in different ways to the team. I just think that, right now, you can only have one player on a court at a time that has no shooting range. Dom is best inside 15'. Asking him to float around the perimeter is a formula for failure, like in his OKC season. I just don't see a way Rubio can co-exist with him.

As for who will be best in the long run? Myles' skill set leads me to believe it's him. I still want to see Dom stay out of foul trouble. I want to see him develop his right hand in any meaningful way. I see him as a guy, especially right now, that can be game planned around, while Myles is flexible enough to kind of tear up a game plan.

[Wizop]

Trading Myles (or Sabonis) is always a good option to improve the team

totally disagree. I want them both. when you get a good player, why throw them away?

they don't play well together in the current scheme? change the scheme. any high school or college coach would figure out how to get his best 5 players on the court together each doing what they do best. pro coaches need to stop putting round pegs in square holes. the answer is not to get the gm to find square pegs. the answer is to create round holes.

[Pacersike]

Myles has absolutely been in the DPOY conversation this year in the general media, and generally been mentioned as a future DPOY finalist and contender, but is likely to come behind Gobert this year, and maybe more into the future. Dom could absolutely win the MIP this year, but is likely to come behind one of the Clippers. Does either player coming behind someone else mean they're never going to win that? Or that they're not either DPOY caliber players or MIP caliber players? No. As for Brook and such learning to shoot 3's? Yes. Brook learned. He started in the NBA when centers didn't shoot 3's and now they have to. Dom came up where big men shot with range, and they tried to have him do it in OKC, and he was a terrible fit for it. It's kind of why he was devalued and we were able to get him in trade. We then pulled him from the arc and he was in a much better position to succeed.


If the consideration is just Rubio versus a vet minimum guy, sure. Why not. If the consideration is a Rubio versus a Russell, or Beverley, or even a Collison, it's a lot tougher. He is a great passer. But teams are starting to figure out they just need to drop off him, and he will not shoot, nor will he drive to the lane. As Caitlin Cooper explained:
https://www.indycornrows.com/2019/6/18/18684108/a-rubio-oladipo-backcourt-for-the-pacers

Additionally, though defenders ducked under screens on nearly 20 percent of his pick-and-rolls, Rubio passed on over half of his drives and made only 18 pull-up three-point field goals in 66 attempts, meaning he finished the season with a comparable shot volume on those looks to that of rookie Aaron Holiday (65) in his role as third-string point guard. Reluctant to take and make that shot while also prone to being ignored off ball and unlikely to pose much of a threat one-on-one, Rubio doesn’t exactly track as an ideal backcourt partner for Victor Oladipo, who already struggled last season with increased defensive attention when teams forced him to drive into rotation.

Oladipo is indeed score-first, and Rubio pass-first, but those roles could end up being adversely reversed by force in a playoff setting, if teams purposefully funnel shots to the latter when the former has the ball in his hands.

I never said Myles can never become DPOY. But this season definitely not nor was he a finalist : https://www.nba.com/nbaawards/2019/finalists
Nor was he on the defensive teams. Snubbed? I don't think so. There is more to defense than shotblocking, but similar to how Allstars usually have to score 20 points average, the popular opinion gets reflected in the general media. Some 20 points scorers play putrid defense and get selected for the allstar game, because the general public doesn't understand much more of basketball than those 20 points average. They don't see how a 20 points scorer can be bad for a team. Same with the best shotblocker in the NBA. Myles gets mentioned because shotblocking is part of defense and the best shotblocker, how can he not be one of the best defenders? Well, his rebounding and man to man defense to name a couple. That is why. But most common fans don't follow Turner in game and if they do, how many fans you think follow his opponents closely? Few. If he got mentioned, it has a lot to do with leading the NBA in shotblocking, not necessarily because he deserves it.

Obviously, there are ways to slow down the Pacers offense with Rubio and Oladipo, but again, it is not like we have better options besides a lost star free agent ending up in Indiana. Collison is obviously not the way to go. Beverley and his lack of playmaking? Not going to work unless we get a better playmaker than BoBo at the 3.

About 3 point shooting. A lot is possible when you work extremely hard for it. Kyle Lowry to name one, averaged over 100 trees a game in his first years in the NBA. Shooting under .300. He was supposed to take them and hit them, not like Lopez. And at the age of 24 he finally started hitting them. Because of hours and hours of practice. Sure, Sabonis wasn't the perfect stretch 4 in his rookie year. Does it necessarily mean he will never be stretch? No. Lots of players develop a 3 point shot. Lance could have, if he wanted to work for it. Lots of players also fail to develop a good 3 point shot, but we are talking about the possibility and at age 23 it is too early for me to tell. Why would he have to also, when he is that efficient inside?

Do you remember that OKC team? Kanter, Adams, Roberson, Westbrook. Very little spread help.
Oladipo was actually the most accurate 3 point shooter on that team of players playing heavy minutes. Go figure.
When Sabonis shoots trees on the Pacers he is above .350. How can you then suggest he shouldn't be shooting them in heavy load, knowing players can always improve? That is if you want him to shoot trees.

Again if our 4 can also shoot them, we want him there inside as much as possible. Do I suggest Turner will never improve his rebounding or scoring? No. And stats even show little improvement in those areas over the years. I have my doubts about it, but it is possible he will grab 9+ rebounds and win DPOY.

[Pacersike]

I definitely think that both will be very good players in the long-term. I think that Sabonis' skill set would be, in theory, easier, or cheaper, to replace than Myles' skill set. A center that is getting more mobile, while getting bigger, like Myles, that can hit the 3 reliably, is getting good at the pick and pop, can roll, and can change a game defensively at the rim, while now being able to side step on the perimeter and stay with wings? That's what the kids refer to as a "unicorn". It's just so rare. Dom is really, really good, too. Ideally, I'd love for both to play together. They both bring so much, in different ways to the team. I just think that, right now, you can only have one player on a court at a time that has no shooting range. Dom is best inside 15'. Asking him to float around the perimeter is a formula for failure, like in his OKC season. I just don't see a way Rubio can co-exist with him.

As for who will be best in the long run? Myles' skill set leads me to believe it's him. I still want to see Dom stay out of foul trouble. I want to see him develop his right hand in any meaningful way. I see him as a guy, especially right now, that can be game planned around, while Myles is flexible enough to kind of tear up a game plan.

Besides the Joker, I doubt any big can replace Sabonis passing, nor do .630 ts% players grow on threes. h h h

The choice would be extremely difficult if they want to trade 1. I'm fine with Sabonis getting traded as well and having Turner at the 5. Turner has lots of potential too and is already very good. I'm just not in favor of keeping both just for the sake of being loyal to our players, ignoring they are not a very good fit together.

When you surround Sabonis with good defenders, it doesn't have to be a big problem. And the Pacers themselves need the upgrade their offense and have room to get a bit worse defensively. Trading the best offensive center would only increase our offensive struggles. Unless Turner starts posting up guards and scoring on them, but that's like wishing for Sabonis to get a 3 point shot. Dreaming big. If you do it, why can't I?

[Pacersike]

Trading Myles (or Sabonis) is always a good option to improve the team

totally disagree. I want them both. when you get a good player, why throw them away?

they don't play well together in the current scheme? change the scheme. any high school or college coach would figure out how to get his best 5 players on the court together each doing what they do best. pro coaches need to stop putting round pegs in square holes. the answer is not to get the gm to find square pegs. the answer is to create round holes.

I'm not that smart to be honest, I rather trade a player to make the scheme easier to follow

[pacers33granger]

As for who will be best in the long run? Myles' skill set leads me to believe it's him. I still want to see Dom stay out of foul trouble. I want to see him develop his right hand in any meaningful way. I see him as a guy, especially right now, that can be game planned around, while Myles is flexible enough to kind of tear up a game plan.

If that Boston series taught us anything it should be this.

Thing with Domas that I seem to disagree with most on is, why does he have to start? I mean, I'm sure he wants to. But what's wrong with having a high paid guy off the bench if he's always playing starter's minutes. I suppose I tend to disagree with the notion that you don't want a $20 mil backup at least in the sense that Domas isn't really a backup.

[Wizop]

Thing with Domas that I seem to disagree with most on is, why does he have to start? I mean, I'm sure he wants to. But what's wrong with having a high paid guy off the bench if he's always playing starter's minutes.

Boston got a lot of rings with hall of famers coming off the bench. the coach just has to make he player know that it is a strategy and not because he's not one of the 5 best players on the team.

[HopsandBarley]

Celtics fan here. Is there any deal you guys could see doing with the Celtics? Jaylen Brown?

[Wizop]

Celtics fan here. Is there any deal you guys could see doing with the Celtics? Jaylen Brown?

very interested in your two draft picks. would you take the 18 for both or are you wanting to dump salary?

as for Brown, a lot depends on what Bogie and Young are offered in free agency.