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Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon

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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#61 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jul 1, 2019 4:09 pm

Wizop wrote:
boomershadow wrote:So is he more or less of a point guard than Oladipo.


I'd say Brogdon is much more of a point guard than Oladipo. Vic was a 2 in college and Orlando traded him away after trying him at point. Brogdon was a point guard at Virginia and I'm pretty sure he won rookie of the year playing point. later the Bucks signed Bledsoe and played Brogdon more(?) at two. I don't want a lot of games other than ours, but it might be fair to say the Bucks didn't match our offer because it was more than they wanted to spend at his positions.


http://bkref.com/tiny/TQwm2
He compares REAL favorably to a Klay Thompson. I think he’s more of a SG that can help an offensive system play. Ultimately, there’s definitely still room for Holiday to be the PG of the future, and I think we could even play the 3 together.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#62 » by Pacernation » Mon Jul 1, 2019 4:16 pm

A guard that can shoot, defend and is no midget? I take it! Let's see if he can hold down the fort as long Vic is out.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#63 » by Boneman2 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 4:37 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:
boomershadow wrote:So is he more or less of a point guard than Oladipo.


I'd say Brogdon is much more of a point guard than Oladipo. Vic was a 2 in college and Orlando traded him away after trying him at point. Brogdon was a point guard at Virginia and I'm pretty sure he won rookie of the year playing point. later the Bucks signed Bledsoe and played Brogdon more(?) at two. I don't want a lot of games other than ours, but it might be fair to say the Bucks didn't match our offer because it was more than they wanted to spend at his positions.


http://bkref.com/tiny/TQwm2
He compares REAL favorably to a Klay Thompson. I think he’s more of a SG that can help an offensive system play. Ultimately, there’s definitely still room for Holiday to be the PG of the future, and I think we could even play the 3 together.


I was going to start a new thread about this but will just piggyback off your point.

Since the NBA introduced the three-point field goal in the 1979–80 season, the 50–40–90 shooting threshold has been reached by eight players:[3][6]

Larry Bird with the Boston Celtics
Malcolm Brogdon with the Milwaukee Bucks
Stephen Curry with the Golden State Warriors
Kevin Durant with the Oklahoma City Thunder
Reggie Miller with the Indiana Pacers
Steve Nash with the Phoenix Suns
Dirk Nowitzki with the Dallas Mavericks
Mark Price with the Cleveland Cavaliers
Nash and Bird are the only players who achieved 50–40–90 in multiple seasons; Bird was the first to join this club and achieved it twice consecutively while Nash achieved it four times in five seasons.[7]

Nash narrowly missed five consecutive 50–40–90 seasons by shooting at 89.9% from the free throw line for the 2006–07 season, one made free throw short of the 90% mark.[8]

While not a criterion, it is notable that Curry is the only member to average at least 30 points-per-game during a 50–40–90 season, with Bird narrowly missing the mark at 29.93 ppg during his second 50–40–90 season.

Nash (during his second 50–40–90 season) and Curry are the only members to achieve a 50–40–90 season while also beating one of the criteria by an additional 5%, with both of them averaging at least 45% (versus 40% required) on their three-pointer shooting.

Curry, Nash, and Nowitzki are the only members to achieve a 50–40–90 mark while also winning the NBA Most Valuable Player (MVP) Award in the same season. All three of those players achieved this feat once apiece. Bird won the league MVP award in three straight seasons without reaching 50–40–90, and in the following two seasons he reached 50–40–90 without receiving the MVP award. Similarly, Durant earned the MVP award and reached 50–40–90 in separate back-to back seasons. Brogdon, Miller, and Price have never won the MVP award.


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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#64 » by Boneman2 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 4:47 pm

He is on a list with absolute legends. Crazy that Malcolm nearly has a career 50/40/90 average.

Add to this several posters on the Bucks forum believe that Malcolm was the most effective defender against Kawhi during the ECF.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#65 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jul 1, 2019 5:20 pm

Boneman2 wrote:He is on a list with absolute legends. Crazy that Malcolm nearly has a career 50/40/90 average.

Add to this several posters on the Bucks forum believe that Malcolm was the most effective defender against Giannis during the ECF.


Against Kawhi? He's never played against Giannis...they've been teammates his whole career!
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#66 » by Boneman2 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 5:21 pm

Boneman2 wrote:He is on a list with absolute legends. Crazy that Malcolm nearly has a career 50/40/90 average.

Add to this several posters on the Bucks forum believe that Malcolm was the most effective defender against Kawhi during the ECF.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#67 » by Boneman2 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 5:23 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Boneman2 wrote:He is on a list with absolute legends. Crazy that Malcolm nearly has a career 50/40/90 average.

Add to this several posters on the Bucks forum believe that Malcolm was the most effective defender against Giannis during the ECF.


Against Kawhi? He's never played against Giannis...they've been teammates his whole career!


Yep. I initially typed Kawhi then mistook him for that other guy on the Bucks
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#68 » by cameroncrazies2 » Tue Jul 2, 2019 7:33 am

Bucks fan here:

Pros: Brogdons a great shooter and scores at all three levels. He doesn’t have elite athleticism but uses his size to get by guys. Even when it’s 50/50 at the rim, he does an unbelievable job finishing when it looks like it’s getting blocked. He’s not a complete lock down defender, but can guard a multitude of players. He’s also an ambassador for the game and clearly on his way up the NBPA chain.

Cons: Brogdon is NOT a point guard. In fact, he has terrible tunnel vision. Maybe it was the “too many mouths to feed” in Milwaukee but when he got his hands on the ball, it stopped. He should not be relied on to initiate the offense. He’s closer to a SF than a PG. He struggles defensively against smaller quicker guards. While his man to man defense is very good, he absolutely dies on screens making it hard to play him at point. The major concern is his feet. Brogdon reportedly has very flat feet and an insider to the Bucks indicated doctors noted he will struggle with foot injuries that lead to knee problems his whole career as flat feet aren’t exactly a curable issue.

I don’t know much about Oladipos ability as an initiator but he and Brogdon seem like a good pairing as long as they work well together as a team to move the ball and IND has, in recent years, always seemed to do that very well on both ends of the court.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#69 » by 8305 » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:51 am

cameroncrazies2 wrote:Bucks fan here:

Pros: Brogdons a great shooter and scores at all three levels. He doesn’t have elite athleticism but uses his size to get by guys. Even when it’s 50/50 at the rim, he does an unbelievable job finishing when it looks like it’s getting blocked. He’s not a complete lock down defender, but can guard a multitude of players. He’s also an ambassador for the game and clearly on his way up the NBPA chain.

Cons: Brogdon is NOT a point guard. In fact, he has terrible tunnel vision. Maybe it was the “too many mouths to feed” in Milwaukee but when he got his hands on the ball, it stopped. He should not be relied on to initiate the offense. He’s closer to a SF than a PG. He struggles defensively against smaller quicker guards. While his man to man defense is very good, he absolutely dies on screens making it hard to play him at point. The major concern is his feet. Brogdon reportedly has very flat feet and an insider to the Bucks indicated doctors noted he will struggle with foot injuries that lead to knee problems his whole career as flat feet aren’t exactly a curable issue.

I don’t know much about Oladipos ability as an initiator but he and Brogdon seem like a good pairing as long as they work well together as a team to move the ball and IND has, in recent years, always seemed to do that very well on both ends of the court.


Ultimately Aaron Holiday needs to be the starter at PG. I’ve been assuming that is what we are working toward one way or another. He may not be ready next year but take us out another year Holiday is the starting PG with Brogdon moves to the 3.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#70 » by Vorda » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:55 am

Oladipo will be primary point guard, Brogdon perfectly fits with him... as I see... Malcolm is CoJo 3.0...
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#71 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jul 2, 2019 1:15 pm

cameroncrazies2 wrote:Bucks fan here:

Pros: Brogdons a great shooter and scores at all three levels. He doesn’t have elite athleticism but uses his size to get by guys. Even when it’s 50/50 at the rim, he does an unbelievable job finishing when it looks like it’s getting blocked. He’s not a complete lock down defender, but can guard a multitude of players. He’s also an ambassador for the game and clearly on his way up the NBPA chain.

Cons: Brogdon is NOT a point guard. In fact, he has terrible tunnel vision. Maybe it was the “too many mouths to feed” in Milwaukee but when he got his hands on the ball, it stopped. He should not be relied on to initiate the offense. He’s closer to a SF than a PG. He struggles defensively against smaller quicker guards. While his man to man defense is very good, he absolutely dies on screens making it hard to play him at point. The major concern is his feet. Brogdon reportedly has very flat feet and an insider to the Bucks indicated doctors noted he will struggle with foot injuries that lead to knee problems his whole career as flat feet aren’t exactly a curable issue.

I don’t know much about Oladipos ability as an initiator but he and Brogdon seem like a good pairing as long as they work well together as a team to move the ball and IND has, in recent years, always seemed to do that very well on both ends of the court.



Is it a weird unique case of flat feet? If not, it can usually be corrected with some arch support in his shoes or even just insoles.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#72 » by Wizop » Tue Jul 2, 2019 1:45 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Is it a weird unique case of flat feet? If not, it can usually be corrected with some arch support in his shoes or even just insoles.


Rik had foot problems and eventually found a specialist in Boston. if he hasn't retired, last I knew he had some sort of continuing relationship with the team.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#73 » by Moooose » Tue Jul 2, 2019 3:51 pm

cameroncrazies2 wrote:Bucks fan here:

Pros: Brogdons a great shooter and scores at all three levels. He doesn’t have elite athleticism but uses his size to get by guys. Even when it’s 50/50 at the rim, he does an unbelievable job finishing when it looks like it’s getting blocked. He’s not a complete lock down defender, but can guard a multitude of players. He’s also an ambassador for the game and clearly on his way up the NBPA chain.

Cons: Brogdon is NOT a point guard. In fact, he has terrible tunnel vision. Maybe it was the “too many mouths to feed” in Milwaukee but when he got his hands on the ball, it stopped. He should not be relied on to initiate the offense. He’s closer to a SF than a PG. He struggles defensively against smaller quicker guards. While his man to man defense is very good, he absolutely dies on screens making it hard to play him at point. The major concern is his feet. Brogdon reportedly has very flat feet and an insider to the Bucks indicated doctors noted he will struggle with foot injuries that lead to knee problems his whole career as flat feet aren’t exactly a curable issue.

I don’t know much about Oladipos ability as an initiator but he and Brogdon seem like a good pairing as long as they work well together as a team to move the ball and IND has, in recent years, always seemed to do that very well on both ends of the court.


Good analysis. I am still not too sold on Brogdon but I am trying to be optimistic. I know he's a good, steady, reliable player but I kind of doubt the fit. I definitely agree on him not being a true point guard. It is pretty obvious in games, though he can play the position.
If Vic can sometimes switch to the point, then maybe it'll make sense.

I was one of those who debated on him winning the ROY back in 2016. Him winning that award has a lot to do with the failure of the draft / rookie class as a whole. That draft class started slow, it is booming just now with Jamal Murray, Domas, Siakam, Hield, Levert, etc. Back then, only a handful were standouts.

I am not hating on him being a Pacer. Maybe because we are 2 to 3 slots away from seeing the bigger picture? I don't know, but I am keeping my fingers crossed that this would work.

And on the foot problems, maybe that's why he is kind of slow. Would be interesting to see him with Myles who has a gait problem.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#74 » by Tom White » Tue Jul 2, 2019 4:40 pm

cameroncrazies2 wrote:
I don’t know much about Oladipos ability as an initiator but he and Brogdon seem like a good pairing as long as they work well together as a team to move the ball and IND has, in recent years, always seemed to do that very well on both ends of the court.


Moooose wrote:Good analysis. I am still not too sold on Brogdon but I am trying to be optimistic. I know he's a good, steady, reliable player but I kind of doubt the fit. I definitely agree on him not being a true point guard. It is pretty obvious in games, though he can play the position.
If Vic can sometimes switch to the point, then maybe it'll make sense.


As I said in another thread, I really didn't watch Brogdon much, other than when he was playing the Pacers. But from what I have read/heard, if you run him and Oladipo out there together, you can just let them play and they are good enough and smart enough to work it out between themselves, sharing the duties of the positions. You add in their defensive talents, and this may be a duo who would really enjoy working together.

Looks like fun to me.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#75 » by winter_mute_13 » Tue Jul 2, 2019 6:21 pm

Personally, I am not too bothered on whether Brogdon is a PG or not (well, other than the short term problem of immediate roster construction).

The way I see it, when he joins the team he'll immediately be the best wing defender. He'll be one of the best shooters, if not the best shooter (no one else has a 50-40-90, though DC had come close before). And he'll be one of the better playmakers, maybe second only to Oladipo.

With those qualities, I think the Pacers would want him on the floor as much as possible, whether it's in the backcourt or the wing. Is it too early to describe him as a star player?

The injury thing is concerning, but I'm reminded of Myles' hip problems when entered the league. There were fears that he'd never run properly, but the Pacers checked out his medicals and decided it was fixable. 4 years on and that issue has never popped up again. So if the Pacers' medical staff don't red flag Brogdon, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#76 » by ahartleyvu » Tue Jul 2, 2019 6:22 pm

Brogdon/Dipo makes for some pretty good defense imo.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#77 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jul 2, 2019 8:21 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=21
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#78 » by Lazlo4D » Tue Jul 2, 2019 8:43 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


That seems fair as long as Brogdon stays healthy. An interesting story about this trade, from Brian Windhorst podcast with Jackie McMullen. I guess Herb Simon called the Bucks about making this deal because he doesn't like poaching other teams RFA's.

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=27098372

At about the 25:00 minute mark...

Hearing this, you could see why the tampering that Magic & the Lakers did with Paul George probably really upset him.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#79 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:05 pm

Lazlo4D wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


That seems fair as long as Brogdon stays healthy. An interesting story about this trade, from Brian Windhorst podcast with Jackie McMullen. I guess Herb Simon called the Bucks about making this deal because he doesn't like poaching other teams RFA's.

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=27098372

At about the 25:00 minute mark...

Hearing this, you could see why the tampering that Magic & the Lakers did with Paul George probably really upset him.


Herb is real old school on this and used to have a no restricted free agents ever rule.
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Re: Pacers agree to S&T for Malcolm Brogdon 

Post#80 » by Boneman2 » Tue Jul 2, 2019 10:58 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Lazlo4D wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


That seems fair as long as Brogdon stays healthy. An interesting story about this trade, from Brian Windhorst podcast with Jackie McMullen. I guess Herb Simon called the Bucks about making this deal because he doesn't like poaching other teams RFA's.

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=27098372

At about the 25:00 minute mark...

Hearing this, you could see why the tampering that Magic & the Lakers did with Paul George probably really upset him.


Herb is real old school on this and used to have a no restricted free agents ever rule.


Kudos to Herb for realizing his mindset about bidding on RFAs was out-of-date and for evolving his approach to fit the current environment. I bet Portland bidding on Roy and LAL tampering with PG heavily influenced his decision to use this tactic to poach talent. Honestly I would only bid on RFAs and I'd target situations like Milwaukee overpaying Middleton. Why not get the better, younger option for $100m less.
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