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Who Will Be the Odd Men Out?

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Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#1 » by 8305 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:33 pm

Depth chart
C Turner, Bitazie,
PF Sabonis, Leaf,
SF Warren, McDermot
SG Oladipo, Lamb, J Holiday, Sumner
PG Brogdon, A Holiday, McConnell

By my count that 13 guys who are either:
Clear starter quality guys
Turner, Sabonis, Warren, Oladipo, Lamb, Brogdan
Experienced proven rotation quality guys
McDermot, J Holiday, McConnell
1st round picks who need rotation minutes to properly develop
Bitazie, Leaf, A Holiday
Promising young guys signed to long term contracts
Sumner

I count 13 players, no way you can give minutes to all of them under any reasonable distribution of minutes. Who sits?
McConnell is pretty easy. We love A Holiday's upside, seems like he should be ready to take on the Cory Joseph role. He could shoot his way out of this opportunity and McConnell is a really nice insurance policy. All that cap affords us some unique luxuries this year. After that it gets trickier.

I"m hoping the Pacers commit to a three guard look. They have the horses for it. Five 6'5" ish guys with great length and athleticism. Oladipo, Lamb, Brogdan, Sumner, J Holiday. The perimeter defense you could play employing a line up that includes three of these guys in a league obsessed by the three point shooting is pretty exciting. Couple this with the ability to have a shot blocker on the floor at all times with Turner and Bitazie and defensively you can see the potential to create a clear competitive advantage that would be unique.

Warren is going to get minutes. The question, how many will come while playing the 3. If we are employing that three guard look not very many. Which to my initial question. Odd men out: McDermot and Leaf.

Thoughts?
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#2 » by Wizop » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:26 pm

You left out Alize Johnson at 14 and Sampson is 15.

I don't think McConnell is an easy sit. Aaron has potential but minutes must be earned.

I can see Leaf and Goga competing for backup 5 particularly if we play some small ball second unit with Warren, Johnson, or even Sampson getting some minutes at the 4.

Bowen is on a 2-way. unless I'm missing someone, we still have a 2-way slot available.

Wilcox and Gant are Exhibit 10's, i.e. training camp hopefuls.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#3 » by boomershadow » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:48 pm

Holiday and Leaf because we hate developing our draft picks.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#4 » by Pacers_Freak » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:22 pm

boomershadow wrote:Holiday and Leaf because we hate developing our draft picks.


What if they get beat out? Are you saying we should play them just because we drafted them?
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#5 » by Topofthekey » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:00 pm

I'm all for players earning their minutes

But what was the rationale behind signing Wes Mathews last season?

We were much better off giving Doug, Holiday, or even Sumner a chance

As I said last season, did it matter whether we lost in the first round to the Bucks or Raptors or 76ers or Celtics?

The team that lost that series is largely gone anyway, so the continuity and gaining experience argument is also moot

To be honest, I stopped watching the team last season when I saw how they responded to Vic's injury

They should have started giving the youngsters more chances to play, instead of signing Wes Matthews and pretending everything was still on track

Sure, if your vision extends only as far as last season, it made sense to sign a decent veteran like Mathews to help temper the lost and push the team as far as I could go, but long term it just made no sense

They really need to stop looking at things one season at a time, and look at the larger picture instead

And part of the larger picture is, we need to make a decision about Leaf soon, like real soon - and there's no way to know whether Leaf has any future with the team until we put him on the court for an extended time and see what do we have in him

Same goes with Doug - is he slowly turning into a bad contract? Or are we just not using him right? Only way to find out is to experiment

But nope, Nate's mantra has been to go with what's familiar and stick his fingers into his ears and go lalalala when someone ask him "but what about (insert player name)"

Remember how when Dirk Nowitzki first joined the league and people were nicknaming him Irk (he got no D)? Imagine if Nate had been his coach - he might very well have been a footnote in the leagues history, instead of a future HoFer
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#6 » by Pacers_Freak » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:11 pm

Topofthekey wrote:I'm all for players earning their minutes

But what was the rationale behind signing Wes Mathews last season?

We were much better off giving Doug, Holiday, or even Sumner a chance

As I said last season, did it matter whether we lost in the first round to the Bucks or Raptors or 76ers or Celtics?

The team that lost that series is largely gone anyway, so the continuity and gaining experience argument is also moot

To be honest, I stopped watching the team last season when I saw how they responded to Vic's injury

They should have started giving the youngsters more chances to play, instead of signing Wes Matthews and pretending everything was still on track

Sure, if your vision extends only as far as last season, it made sense to sign a decent veteran like Mathews to help temper the lost and push the team as far as I could go, but long term it just made no sense

They really need to stop looking at things one season at a time, and look at the larger picture instead

And part of the larger picture is, we need to make a decision about Leaf soon, like real soon - and there's no way to know whether Leaf has any future with the team until we put him on the court for an extended time and see what do we have in him

Same goes with Doug - is he slowly turning into a bad contract? Or are we just not using him right? Only way to find out is to experiment

But nope, Nate's mantra has been to go with what's familiar and stick his fingers into his ears and go lalalala when someone ask him "but what about (insert player name)"

Remember how when Dirk Nowitzki first joined the league and people were nicknaming him Irk (he got no D)? Imagine if Nate had been his coach - he might very well have been a footnote in the leagues history, instead of a future HoFer


Remember this is a business. The Mathews signing may have very well come from the very top. It’s well known that in Indy the more you win the more people show up to games.

Also everyone on here is so into everyone getting on the court. We need to see what we have. Well we don’t get to see it but the people that need to make these decisions see these guys perform every single day.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#7 » by Boneman2 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:45 pm

boomershadow wrote:Holiday and Leaf because we hate developing our draft picks.


Since entering the NBA Indy has had no choice but to develop its own draft picks. This method has been much harder to achieve success since the selections are constantly between 10-25.

SL results seem to indicate that Holiday is nothing more than a high-volume, low efficiency chucker. He will have to beat out McConnell by proving his ball handling, decision making and defensive tendencies are up to snuff.

TJ Leaf on the other hand seems like he is ready to assume 15-18 mpg. He will be given a chance in year 3 of his rookie contract to determine his worth moving forward. If he is able to carve out a meaningful role is entirely up to him at this point.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#8 » by Tom White » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:17 pm

Topofthekey wrote:And part of the larger picture is, we need to make a decision about Leaf soon, like real soon - and there's no way to know whether Leaf has any future with the team until we put him on the court for an extended time and see what do we have in him


Who is this "we" you refer to? Got a mouse in your pocket or something? HA!
I would say the coaching staff has a better idea about who should be on the floor than "we" do.

But nope, Nate's mantra has been to go with what's familiar and stick his fingers into his ears and go lalalala when someone ask him "but what about (insert player name)"


And who are these people asking Nate about these unnamed players? Is it the famous "we" again? Are you actually hearing people (to whom attention should be given, as opposed to writers looking to fill a column) ask him about this?

Remember how when Dirk Nowitzki first joined the league and people were nicknaming him Irk (he got no D)? Imagine if Nate had been his coach - he might very well have been a footnote in the leagues history, instead of a future HoFer


Since you seem prone to ignore the assistant coaches in this statement, then would it make sense to also give only Nate credit for the defensive work of players like Myles? How about Vic? Bogie certainly improved his defense while he was here. Are you saying Nate had absolutely nothing to do with that as well? Since you assume Nate would single-handedly keep Dirk out of the Hall of Fame, shouldn't he also be mentioned in regards to players who have improved defensively?
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#9 » by 8305 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:40 pm

Wizop wrote:You left out Alize Johnson at 14 and Sampson is 15.

I don't think McConnell is an easy sit. Aaron has potential but minutes must be earned.

I can see Leaf and Goga competing for backup 5 particularly if we play some small ball second unit with Warren, Johnson, or even Sampson getting some minutes at the 4.

Bowen is on a 2-way. unless I'm missing someone, we still have a 2-way slot available.

Wilcox and Gant are Exhibit 10's, i.e. training camp hopefuls.


Wasn't forgetting about them. Just see no realistic pathway to either playing this year. It will be a rarity when they dress let alone play. I was listing guys who could play their way in or move into the rotation if someone else plays his way out.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#10 » by 8305 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:53 pm

Topofthekey wrote:I'm all for players earning their minutes

But what was the rationale behind signing Wes Mathews last season?

We were much better off giving Doug, Holiday, or even Sumner a chance

As I said last season, did it matter whether we lost in the first round to the Bucks or Raptors or 76ers or Celtics?

The team that lost that series is largely gone anyway, so the continuity and gaining experience argument is also moot

To be honest, I stopped watching the team last season when I saw how they responded to Vic's injury

They should have started giving the youngsters more chances to play, instead of signing Wes Matthews and pretending everything was still on track

Sure, if your vision extends only as far as last season, it made sense to sign a decent veteran like Mathews to help temper the lost and push the team as far as I could go, but long term it just made no sense

They really need to stop looking at things one season at a time, and look at the larger picture instead

And part of the larger picture is, we need to make a decision about Leaf soon, like real soon - and there's no way to know whether Leaf has any future with the team until we put him on the court for an extended time and see what do we have in him

Same goes with Doug - is he slowly turning into a bad contract? Or are we just not using him right? Only way to find out is to experiment

But nope, Nate's mantra has been to go with what's familiar and stick his fingers into his ears and go lalalala when someone ask him "but what about (insert player name)"

Remember how when Dirk Nowitzki first joined the league and people were nicknaming him Irk (he got no D)? Imagine if Nate had been his coach - he might very well have been a footnote in the leagues history, instead of a future HoFer


I wasn't as down on the Wes Matthews signing and playing time that he got as I was with the continued run that Tyreke Evans received. I would have liked to see more of Holiday.

I agree its time for Leaf to get some run. But, he is going to on some level have to beat out either Bitazie or McDermot. If he doesn't it might just be bad timing and luck for him.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#11 » by Wizop » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:52 pm

Tom White wrote:Who is this "we" you refer to? Got a mouse in your pocket or something? HA!
I would say the coaching staff has a better idea about who should be on the floor than "we" do.


I was going to post the same thought. we fans may only be able to go by what we see in games, but the coaches see the players in practice.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#12 » by boomershadow » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:44 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:
boomershadow wrote:Holiday and Leaf because we hate developing our draft picks.


What if they get beat out? Are you saying we should play them just because we drafted them?


I'm a big fan of the idea that you don't really know what you have in a player until they actually step on the court and go head to head with other legit NBA players. Everything else is potential, or speculation, or whatever. Now if there's a guy that's just not showing he has what it takes....definitely don't play him just "because". But if you want to get the most of your first round pick, I honestly think you have to give him some actual rotation minutes for awhile to find out what you really have there, to let him find out what works and what doesn't on an NBA court and how to improve. You can't do that in practice or watching from the bench.

The Pacers have been really good at doing that, but McMillan and Pritchard don't have a great track record in this particular area. Not here and not in Portland, andI do worry that's a strength of the franchise that might not continue going forward.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#13 » by Pacers_Freak » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:50 pm

boomershadow wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
boomershadow wrote:Holiday and Leaf because we hate developing our draft picks.


What if they get beat out? Are you saying we should play them just because we drafted them?


I'm a big fan of the idea that you don't really know what you have in a player until they actually step on the court and go head to head with other legit NBA players. Everything else is potential, or speculation, or whatever. Now if there's a guy that's just not showing he has what it takes....definitely don't play him just "because". But if you want to get the most of your first round pick, I honestly think you have to give him some actual rotation minutes for awhile to find out what you really have there, to let him find out what works and what doesn't on an NBA court and how to improve. You can't do that in practice or watching from the bench.

The Pacers have been really good at doing that, but McMillan and Pritchard don't have a great track record in this particular area. Not here and not in Portland, andI do worry that's a strength of the franchise that might not continue going forward.


I understand where you’re coming from. But I’m fairness don’t they go up against real legit players everyday they in camp and practice? You and I may not see it but the decision makers do.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#14 » by Wizop » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:57 am

a player can look good in practice and flop in games, but a player who doesn't have it in practice needs to step it up to get into games.

Sent from my phone.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#15 » by Topofthekey » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:12 am

Tom White wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:And part of the larger picture is, we need to make a decision about Leaf soon, like real soon - and there's no way to know whether Leaf has any future with the team until we put him on the court for an extended time and see what do we have in him


Who is this "we" you refer to? Got a mouse in your pocket or something? HA!
I would say the coaching staff has a better idea about who should be on the floor than "we" do.

But nope, Nate's mantra has been to go with what's familiar and stick his fingers into his ears and go lalalala when someone ask him "but what about (insert player name)"


And who are these people asking Nate about these unnamed players? Is it the famous "we" again? Are you actually hearing people (to whom attention should be given, as opposed to writers looking to fill a column) ask him about this?

Remember how when Dirk Nowitzki first joined the league and people were nicknaming him Irk (he got no D)? Imagine if Nate had been his coach - he might very well have been a footnote in the leagues history, instead of a future HoFer


Since you seem prone to ignore the assistant coaches in this statement, then would it make sense to also give only Nate credit for the defensive work of players like Myles? How about Vic? Bogie certainly improved his defense while he was here. Are you saying Nate had absolutely nothing to do with that as well? Since you assume Nate would single-handedly keep Dirk out of the Hall of Fame, shouldn't he also be mentioned in regards to players who have improved defensively?


Rough day at work?
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#16 » by Boneman2 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:17 am

Summer time is rough business on basketball fans in general.

I can’t stop thinking about a defensive unit consisting of Brogdon, Dipo, Holiday & Turner. Who completes that unit? Imagine the wings attacking passing lanes while funneling penetration to Myles. Could be Burke’s deadliest squad to date. There is a good chance our defense surpasses PG/ Roy, which is elite, but if it’s on par with Ron/ JO, we’ll be blessed.

Edit: Justin Holiday
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#17 » by Moooose » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:47 am

Good topic.

PG = Brogdon / A. Holiday/ McConnell
SG = Lamb / J. Holiday / Sumner* / Oladipo*

Backcourt:

I have a feeling McConnell would easily outplay Aaron Holiday in the rotation. Though it may not necessarily mean fewer minutes for Aaron Holiday, his development should continue. He may also see minutes at the 2 spot, same as Brogdon. I just think with this kind of a scoring team, having McConnell would be more beneficial for that facilitator role. And McConnell is the only true point guard we have on the team. One thing I also like about McConnell in this team is the grit and energy he brings. We will never get that same amount of grit and energy from both Aaron Holiday and even from Brogdon. If someone is to get the minutes CoJo got from last year, it could be McConnell.

Lamb and Justin Holiday could switch to the 3, if needed. And for the time being that Oladipo and Sumner are out, the 2 spot looks okay.

SF = Warren / McDermott / Sampson / Johnson
PF = Sabonis / Leaf
C = Turner / Bitadze

Frontcourt:

McDermott is a steady piece at the back-up 3 spot.

As much as I would like us to give minutes to Alize Johnson, the Sampson signing (for me) clearly hinders his potential involvement in the team. It could be a competition for minutes between the two, yes. But Sampson has been serviceable all throughout his career and has more experience that could help this young team. I would bet that we'd see him play the 4 ahead of Leaf in some games depending on the defensive matchup.

Speaking of Leaf, I really think he COULD be the odd man out unless he proves otherwise. One, Johnson and Sampson can both play the 4 spot and are better perimeter defenders than Leaf. And we need perimeter defenders. Two, Warren could also play small ball 4 and is more skilled offensively. Minutes at the center spot for him could be minimal, barring an injury to the other bigs.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#18 » by Moooose » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:12 am

And on us playing our draft picks, I think it is a case to case basis. Depending on the team fit and depending more on the skill and potential of the player. If the examples are Holiday and Leaf, I think most of us fans know the obvious issues why we aren't playing them much aside from rotational problems.

There's a good chance Goga might get more minutes than both Holiday and Leaf next season.

I have read somewhere, I cannot remember exactly where from, how the Spurs and the Raptors always find gems in the draft and how they achieve sustainable success. How they give minutes to the rookies, how their rookies develop, etc. I think the point was though the nucleus of the process is excellent scouting, their drafting systems are different. They always address positional need in relation to present contracts, development time, etc. In short, they draft smart. They draft for the future as compared to drafting someone who plays the same position as your other two or three best players and in turn getting buried in the bench and wasting development time. I can't recall the exact terminology but it was like a plug and play system with disposable components, and then drafting the best replacement components. There's no wrong in going BPA alone, but that is subjective.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#19 » by 8305 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:43 am

I see these being interesting head to heads where the loser may get little or no run.

A Holiday vs McConnell
Holiday has starter upside and we contractually control him for at least three more years. Gotta think he is going to get the benefit of the doubt. Based on his summer league performance I worry he plays/shoots his way out of the rotation. Having TJ affords the luxury of not having to play a guy who isn't ready or capable.
J Holiday vs Sumner
Does Sumner have more upside? Seems to me he does. And, we control him for three years vs one. I'd like to think this says Sumner gets the benefit of the doubt here. Not sure that's the way the Pacers think. Depending how aggressively the Pacers go with the three guard look even the winner of this matchup could be out of the rotation when Vic comes back.
Leaf vs Bitazie
Could be that Bitazie just isn't ready. But, I gotta think that before the season is over he gets plugged in as the back up 5. Even then all isn't lost for Leaf since he could get backup 4 minutes. Down side here is if/when Sabonis can't defend the opposing 4 Leaf isn't a likely answer. But, who is? Warren or McDermot?
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#20 » by Tom White » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:38 pm

Topofthekey wrote:Rough day at work?


Nope! Been retired for about five years. Just giving a differing set of thoughts on the subject, that's all.

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