Sabonis
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Re: Sabonis
I'd be interested in Brandon Ingram
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Re: Sabonis
reflex35 wrote:Who would you pay more ? Domas or Barnes?
Barnes is now getting 88 mil per 4 years.. If Pacers do not give Domas that and instead are willing to trade him for Barnes then it's really something wrong...
a 4 year deal with 8% raises would have to start at 19.5 to total 88. I expected our offer to be more like 18 plus raises. maybe he wants 25 to start. at that price, I'd pass on an extension and try to reach a deal next summer when he's a restricted free agent.
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I think he might be way overvalued by the local fanbase. For what he does on offense, you have to take into account he is not a big who can defend in space, protect the paint nor does he have legit NBA big center size and length. Someone tried to mention Jokic but Jokic is a legit 5 who is an anomaly, while Sabonis is more of a tweener. Their skill level gap is massive.
I see him as a 4/60 to 4/65 type.
I hear people talking about Brown and Barnes but two-way wings are FAR more valuable to winning in the NBA than one-way centers. Myles Turner is a big man with the value. He fits the modern NBA to a tee. He might be soft but most teams need what he can provide. Ask all of the teams who need a center in which one fits what they need, (Turner or Sabonis). All and I mean ALL will say, Turner.
Sabonis a good and talented but he is limited due to his physical limitations and while skilled isn't generationally skilled like Jokic or his dad to make up for it.
For me, Barnes is overpaid but by 10-13 million. He is still a 4/75 type. Brown is around the same range to me but will likely be overpaid. Two-way wings with size and ability are just too valuable in the modern NBA.
I see him as a 4/60 to 4/65 type.
I hear people talking about Brown and Barnes but two-way wings are FAR more valuable to winning in the NBA than one-way centers. Myles Turner is a big man with the value. He fits the modern NBA to a tee. He might be soft but most teams need what he can provide. Ask all of the teams who need a center in which one fits what they need, (Turner or Sabonis). All and I mean ALL will say, Turner.
Sabonis a good and talented but he is limited due to his physical limitations and while skilled isn't generationally skilled like Jokic or his dad to make up for it.
For me, Barnes is overpaid but by 10-13 million. He is still a 4/75 type. Brown is around the same range to me but will likely be overpaid. Two-way wings with size and ability are just too valuable in the modern NBA.
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Re: Sabonis
King Ken wrote:I think he might be way overvalued by the local fanbase. For what he does on offense, you have to take into account he is not a big who can defend in space, protect the paint nor does he have legit NBA big center size and length. Someone tried to mention Jokic but Jokic is a legit 5 who is an anomaly, while Sabonis is more of a tweener. Their skill level gap is massive.
I see him as a 4/60 to 4/65 type.
I hear people talking about Brown and Barnes but two-way wings are FAR more valuable to winning in the NBA than one-way centers. Myles Turner is a big man with the value. He fits the modern NBA to a tee. He might be soft but most teams need what he can provide. Ask all of the teams who need a center in which one fits what they need, (Turner or Sabonis). All and I mean ALL will say, Turner.
Sabonis a good and talented but he is limited due to his physical limitations and while skilled isn't generationally skilled like Jokic or his dad to make up for it.
For me, Barnes is overpaid but by 10-13 million. He is still a 4/75 type. Brown is around the same range to me but will likely be overpaid. Two-way wings with size and ability are just too valuable in the modern NBA.
Good analysis. While I agree on most of your thoughts, here's some things that I may be looking from a different view.
Sabonis is not in the same mold as Jokic or any two-way centers in the league. He is kind of unique on his own with his combination of skills and basketball IQ. Not that he's an unwilling defender, but he is clearly lacking the length or the strength to match up with the beasts of the paint. You can see him trying his best on the defensive end but, as you said, he is physically limited. So with that, I think he would fit very well next to a mobile, defensive big man. Myles is not mobile at all and that is where the biggest issue is, fit-wise.
On Barnes. I personally think he really isn't that good and I am not alone on this. He is not that bad, but he definitely is not that good to get a $20M/yr. contract. TJ Warren is a notch better than him and costs half of his contract. He does too little on both sides and I have not heard anyone praising Barnes for his defense.
On Brown. I am on the assumption that we are discussing Jaylen Brown. I like Brown a lot better than Barnes as he is someone who can play physical defense. But unless the Pacers are to free up some space at the SG/SF spot with the Domas trade, Brown will probably get the same minutes he is getting with the Celtics. The Pacers just cannot entrust Warren to be the full-time PF.
I personally think there are better options than these two in the market, talent-wise and salary-wise.
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Re: Sabonis
King Ken wrote:I think he might be way overvalued by the local fanbase. ...
I see him as a 4/60 to 4/65 type.
perhaps, that's what we've offered and he was expecting more
King Ken wrote:Ask all of the teams who need a center in which one fits what they need, (Turner or Sabonis). All and I mean ALL will say, Turner.
all includes the Pacers. that's why the talk is moving Sabonis and not Turner.
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Moooose wrote:King Ken wrote:I think he might be way overvalued by the local fanbase. For what he does on offense, you have to take into account he is not a big who can defend in space, protect the paint nor does he have legit NBA big center size and length. Someone tried to mention Jokic but Jokic is a legit 5 who is an anomaly, while Sabonis is more of a tweener. Their skill level gap is massive.
I see him as a 4/60 to 4/65 type.
I hear people talking about Brown and Barnes but two-way wings are FAR more valuable to winning in the NBA than one-way centers. Myles Turner is a big man with the value. He fits the modern NBA to a tee. He might be soft but most teams need what he can provide. Ask all of the teams who need a center in which one fits what they need, (Turner or Sabonis). All and I mean ALL will say, Turner.
Sabonis a good and talented but he is limited due to his physical limitations and while skilled isn't generationally skilled like Jokic or his dad to make up for it.
For me, Barnes is overpaid but by 10-13 million. He is still a 4/75 type. Brown is around the same range to me but will likely be overpaid. Two-way wings with size and ability are just too valuable in the modern NBA.
Good analysis. While I agree on most of your thoughts, here's some things that I may be looking from a different view.
Sabonis is not in the same mold as Jokic or any two-way centers in the league. He is kind of unique on his own with his combination of skills and basketball IQ. Not that he's an unwilling defender, but he is clearly lacking the length or the strength to match up with the beasts of the paint. You can see him trying his best on the defensive end but, as you said, he is physically limited. So with that, I think he would fit very well next to a mobile, defensive big man. Myles is not mobile at all and that is where the biggest issue is, fit-wise.
On Barnes. I personally think he really isn't that good and I am not alone on this. He is not that bad, but he definitely is not that good to get a $20M/yr. contract. TJ Warren is a notch better than him and costs half of his contract. He does too little on both sides and I have not heard anyone praising Barnes for his defense.
On Brown. I am on the assumption that we are discussing Jaylen Brown. I like Brown a lot better than Barnes as he is someone who can play physical defense. But unless the Pacers are to free up some space at the SG/SF spot with the Domas trade, Brown will probably get the same minutes he is getting with the Celtics. The Pacers just cannot entrust Warren to be the full-time PF.
I personally think there are better options than these two in the market, talent-wise and salary-wise.
I am higher on Barnes than most just based on watching all of his games in the last two seasons. I like him a lot more than Warren and I like Brown as well.
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Andrew McCeltic wrote:Warren, McDermott, Sabonis for Harrison Barnes? Barnes and Giles?
Come on. This has absolutely no starting point.
Plus, Barnes isn't even tradeable until December.
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King Ken wrote:Moooose wrote:King Ken wrote:I think he might be way overvalued by the local fanbase. For what he does on offense, you have to take into account he is not a big who can defend in space, protect the paint nor does he have legit NBA big center size and length. Someone tried to mention Jokic but Jokic is a legit 5 who is an anomaly, while Sabonis is more of a tweener. Their skill level gap is massive.
I see him as a 4/60 to 4/65 type.
I hear people talking about Brown and Barnes but two-way wings are FAR more valuable to winning in the NBA than one-way centers. Myles Turner is a big man with the value. He fits the modern NBA to a tee. He might be soft but most teams need what he can provide. Ask all of the teams who need a center in which one fits what they need, (Turner or Sabonis). All and I mean ALL will say, Turner.
Sabonis a good and talented but he is limited due to his physical limitations and while skilled isn't generationally skilled like Jokic or his dad to make up for it.
For me, Barnes is overpaid but by 10-13 million. He is still a 4/75 type. Brown is around the same range to me but will likely be overpaid. Two-way wings with size and ability are just too valuable in the modern NBA.
Good analysis. While I agree on most of your thoughts, here's some things that I may be looking from a different view.
Sabonis is not in the same mold as Jokic or any two-way centers in the league. He is kind of unique on his own with his combination of skills and basketball IQ. Not that he's an unwilling defender, but he is clearly lacking the length or the strength to match up with the beasts of the paint. You can see him trying his best on the defensive end but, as you said, he is physically limited. So with that, I think he would fit very well next to a mobile, defensive big man. Myles is not mobile at all and that is where the biggest issue is, fit-wise.
On Barnes. I personally think he really isn't that good and I am not alone on this. He is not that bad, but he definitely is not that good to get a $20M/yr. contract. TJ Warren is a notch better than him and costs half of his contract. He does too little on both sides and I have not heard anyone praising Barnes for his defense.
On Brown. I am on the assumption that we are discussing Jaylen Brown. I like Brown a lot better than Barnes as he is someone who can play physical defense. But unless the Pacers are to free up some space at the SG/SF spot with the Domas trade, Brown will probably get the same minutes he is getting with the Celtics. The Pacers just cannot entrust Warren to be the full-time PF.
I personally think there are better options than these two in the market, talent-wise and salary-wise.
I am higher on Barnes than most just based on watching all of his games in the last two seasons. I like him a lot more than Warren and I like Brown as well.
Maybe, but Barnes simply isn't a two way wing in any way. He's been a negative defender since he left GS, and outside of his 28 game run in Sacramento, his offense has been falling for the last 4 seasons. With his new contract just starting, I certainly would rather hold the bag on Sabonis on a big contract than Barnes.
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winter_mute_13 wrote:Smells of a negotiating tactic to me... extend or we'll trade you.
"Listening to trade offers" doesn't mean much. In theory, the team should be listening to trade offers for every player. Typical trade offers are of the lowball variety... maybe the team hopes to jumpstart some better offers?
Anyway, I don't see any irreparable breakdown here, assuming the team really is willing to pay out Turner money to Sabonis. If an extension doesn't get done, the team will still have RFA rights for leverage. Another team may be willing to pay more than Turner money, but I can't imagine it will be a lot more.
EDIT: "high asking price" kind of suggests which side leaked this
Even more interesting is that this comes out within a week of a previous interview with Pritchard where the franchise talked openly about how, yes, they listen to offers all the time, but they're open with their players throughout.
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Re: Sabonis
Fischella wrote:I'd be interested in Brandon Ingram
Of all teams, I don't think we can be the ones to fiscally take a risk on him with a new contract, considering his long term health worries with the blood clots. We can talk about the hopes that his issue is different and removing a rib fixes it, but the last two guys in the NBA who had to miss games for the blood clots ended up having to retire due to that same issue, and their teams were still on the hook for paying out the contract. I highly doubt the league's insurers will allow Ingram's next deal to be insured, and will likely select him as one of their small amount of exclusions every year.
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Re: Sabonis
winter_mute_13 wrote:Smells of a negotiating tactic to me... extend or we'll trade you.
"Listening to trade offers" doesn't mean much. In theory, the team should be listening to trade offers for every player. Typical trade offers are of the lowball variety... maybe the team hopes to jumpstart some better offers?
Anyway, I don't see any irreparable breakdown here, assuming the team really is willing to pay out Turner money to Sabonis. If an extension doesn't get done, the team will still have RFA rights for leverage. Another team may be willing to pay more than Turner money, but I can't imagine it will be a lot more.
EDIT: "high asking price" kind of suggests which side leaked this
Man, I thought I had the worst avatar here, I guess I was wrong
All sides could have leaked, no need to jump to early conclusions. All it takes is one crazy GM, like you, to pull a Roy Hibbert on us and we have to match or let him walk. Domas and his dad are smart enough to play hardball as well as the Pacers if they want to.
We don't know the correct salary figures and we don't know the (only) leakers. No need to go deeper into it.
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King Ken wrote:I think he might be way overvalued by the local fanbase. For what he does on offense, you have to take into account he is not a big who can defend in space, protect the paint nor does he have legit NBA big center size and length. Someone tried to mention Jokic but Jokic is a legit 5 who is an anomaly, while Sabonis is more of a tweener. Their skill level gap is massive.
I see him as a 4/60 to 4/65 type.
I hear people talking about Brown and Barnes but two-way wings are FAR more valuable to winning in the NBA than one-way centers. Myles Turner is a big man with the value. He fits the modern NBA to a tee. He might be soft but most teams need what he can provide. Ask all of the teams who need a center in which one fits what they need, (Turner or Sabonis). All and I mean ALL will say, Turner.
Sabonis a good and talented but he is limited due to his physical limitations and while skilled isn't generationally skilled like Jokic or his dad to make up for it.
For me, Barnes is overpaid but by 10-13 million. He is still a 4/75 type. Brown is around the same range to me but will likely be overpaid. Two-way wings with size and ability are just too valuable in the modern NBA.
Turner without any doubt has more trade value than Sabonis. More teams could use his rim protection over a great passing, rebounding big.
Overall impact it is closer than you make it though and surrounded by good defenders Domas will not get so often exposed defensively.
Neither player has been elite offensively or defensively (though some like to believe Turner has been looking at all his blocks), so the player who will be able to make the final steps, will become the most valuable player of the 2.
Pretty sure the Sabonis party think he can take another step forward and that he already is in Turners salary ballpark.
Thanks for the input though, we all have our preferences and you made that very clear by valueing H Barnes.
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Re: Sabonis
reflex35 wrote:Andrew McCeltic wrote:Warren, McDermott, Sabonis for Harrison Barnes? Barnes and Giles?
Harrison Barnes?
That would be a huge mistake. Kings are already regretting his contract!
Who would you pay more ? Domas or Barnes?
Barnes is now getting 88 mil per 4 years.. If Pacers do not give Domas that and instead are willing to trade him for Barnes then it's really something wrong...
The Kings are regretting his contract because they have to pay their shooting guards and then Fox - it’s bad cap management, not the contract itself that’s the problem.
The Pacers probably don’t want to pay Sabonis more than they’re paying Turner, and they don’t want to pay him to play the same position. Investing that money in a 3/4 is a different relative spend. Barnes is a big, strong 3/4 who can defend. He can score, in his way. He’s a decent fit next to Oladipo and Turner. It’s not perfect, but neither is paying and keeping Sabonis.
Barnes’ money is 4/85, it’s Brogdon money, and it declines every year - 24, 22, 20, 18.
I’m not a Pacers fan - to me it seems fair. Jaylen Brown, by the way: is someone Boston fans have compared to Harrison Barnes as a “floor”, a good defender and athlete and a slightly stiff but effective scorer. Brown, by the way, is due for a new contract and just turned down 4/80 from the Celtics.
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I was trying to read some opinions on the Domas case and I think there's no way the Pacers would say sign up or get traded to Domas' party. Everyone would know that they will be creating a time bomb if that happens. There is no sense to keep an unhappy player. On the other hand, I've also seen some posts that suggest that the news had been leaked NOT BY THE PACERS but by any of the other teams, it is not the Pacers' nature to undisclose such negotiations unless Domas made a trade request.
I am still keeping my fingers crossed that we end up keeping Domas.
I am still keeping my fingers crossed that we end up keeping Domas.
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Andrew McCeltic wrote:reflex35 wrote:Andrew McCeltic wrote:Warren, McDermott, Sabonis for Harrison Barnes? Barnes and Giles?
Harrison Barnes?
That would be a huge mistake. Kings are already regretting his contract!
Who would you pay more ? Domas or Barnes?
Barnes is now getting 88 mil per 4 years.. If Pacers do not give Domas that and instead are willing to trade him for Barnes then it's really something wrong...
The Kings are regretting his contract because they have to pay their shooting guards and then Fox - it’s bad cap management, not the contract itself that’s the problem.
The Pacers probably don’t want to pay Sabonis more than they’re paying Turner, and they don’t want to pay him to play the same position. Investing that money in a 3/4 is a different relative spend. Barnes is a big, strong 3/4 who can defend. He can score, in his way. He’s a decent fit next to Oladipo and Turner. It’s not perfect, but neither is paying and keeping Sabonis.
Barnes’ money is 4/85, it’s Brogdon money, and it declines every year - 24, 22, 20, 18.
I’m not a Pacers fan - to me it seems fair. Jaylen Brown, by the way: is someone Boston fans have compared to Harrison Barnes as a “floor”, a good defender and athlete and a slightly stiff but effective scorer. Brown, by the way, is due for a new contract and just turned down 4/80 from the Celtics.
I agree with everything you wrote which is basically that PACERS DON'T NEED SABONIS AS THEY HAVE MYLES AND NOW GOGA AND THAT BARNES WILL SUIT THEM BETTER AS IT WOULD NOT DUPLICATE POSITION AT 5.
The only thing is that Pacers can find a lot better deal than Barnes.
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Re: Sabonis
Sabonis + McDermott for Robert Covington + Jordan Bell + pick swap first option or top 20 protected first?
Brogdon / Dipo / Covington / Warren / Turner
Holiday / Lamb / Warren / Bell / Goga
Brogdon / Dipo / Covington / Warren / Turner
Holiday / Lamb / Warren / Bell / Goga
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I think Covington will probably draw more interest than Barnes, even though Barnes has more scoring ability (which the Pacers need) - and part of the sell for Sacramento is getting a do-over on his money.
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Re: Sabonis
Andrew McCeltic wrote:reflex35 wrote:Andrew McCeltic wrote:Warren, McDermott, Sabonis for Harrison Barnes? Barnes and Giles?
Harrison Barnes?
That would be a huge mistake. Kings are already regretting his contract!
Who would you pay more ? Domas or Barnes?
Barnes is now getting 88 mil per 4 years.. If Pacers do not give Domas that and instead are willing to trade him for Barnes then it's really something wrong...
The Kings are regretting his contract because they have to pay their shooting guards and then Fox - it’s bad cap management, not the contract itself that’s the problem.
The Pacers probably don’t want to pay Sabonis more than they’re paying Turner, and they don’t want to pay him to play the same position. Investing that money in a 3/4 is a different relative spend. Barnes is a big, strong 3/4 who can defend. He can score, in his way. He’s a decent fit next to Oladipo and Turner. It’s not perfect, but neither is paying and keeping Sabonis.
Barnes’ money is 4/85, it’s Brogdon money, and it declines every year - 24, 22, 20, 18.
I’m not a Pacers fan - to me it seems fair. Jaylen Brown, by the way: is someone Boston fans have compared to Harrison Barnes as a “floor”, a good defender and athlete and a slightly stiff but effective scorer. Brown, by the way, is due for a new contract and just turned down 4/80 from the Celtics.
Where is this coming from? Because, the last several seasons haven't shown it. He's a scorer who isn't a sieve defensively. He's a step above TJ Warren in that regard, but double the cost, and really not worth it.
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Andrew McCeltic wrote:I think Covington will probably draw more interest than Barnes, even though Barnes has more scoring ability (which the Pacers need) - and part of the sell for Sacramento is getting a do-over on his money.
Do we? We have offensive guys, but we need someone that can defend a 4. Barnes hasn't been that. Covington would be. It's a bit weird that your argument is more along the lines of "Barnes is worse, so you can get him for Sabonis". Sabonis is pretty good. Really good. He should net a fair amount. We don't have to sell out and get a lot worse to swap him for Barnes.
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Scoot McGroot wrote:Andrew McCeltic wrote:I think Covington will probably draw more interest than Barnes, even though Barnes has more scoring ability (which the Pacers need) - and part of the sell for Sacramento is getting a do-over on his money.
Do we? We have offensive guys, but we need someone that can defend a 4. Barnes hasn't been that. Covington would be. It's a bit weird that your argument is more along the lines of "Barnes is worse, so you can get him for Sabonis". Sabonis is pretty good. Really good. He should net a fair amount. We don't have to sell out and get a lot worse to swap him for Barnes.
Barnes may be "better" than Covington, I think Covington will attract more trade interest because he's more impactful defensively and easier to slot in on offense on teams that are already mostly constructed - Denver would probably have more interest in Covington than Barnes, for example. Player ability and absolute value - Sabonis *is* really good - don't always line up with relative value when it comes to trades.
Right now it sounds like Pritchard's plan all along has been to pair Sabonis and Turner, give it time, and make it work. If he doesn't have any good options, it may be that Sabonis' reps are holding him over a barrel to extract a fatter contract. I'm guessing Pritchard blinks and gives out more money..