How good would the Pacers be IF...

basketballwacko2 · Post #1 » by **basketballwacko2** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:06 am

IF we had drafted OG Anunoby or John Collins in 2017? TJ Leaf may be a nice guy but come on!
He got a DNP-COACH'S DECISION tonight, Justin Holiday and Dougie were getting minutes even with Turner out! :lol:

Post #2 » by **Grang33r** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:02 am

We used to be able to find hidden gems but lately we've dropped in the scouting department. Leaf over Collins is going to haunt us for a while because of how much greater Collins is then Leaf. But Aaron Holiday doesn't look too hot either and of course it's way too early to tell for Goga Bitadze yet. Not only are we on a dry run finding hidden gems but we can't hit on first rounders either. Last good first rounder was Myles.

Post #3 » by **boomershadow** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:43 am

On draft night, I must admit I thought Wacko was being a bit dramatic with his praise for Collins and disbelief that we didn't take him. I gotta hand it to him, though, he hit the nail right on the head with that one.

One thing we got spoiled with under Frank Vogel was him putting young guys in a position to succeed. PG broke out. Lance and Solomon Hill turned into rotation players under him. Turner looked like the future right from the very start. Nate just doesn't seem to have the same ability to do that, and I don't think it's just the quality of the players affecting that

Pacers_Freak · Post #4 » by **Pacers_Freak** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:27 pm

boomershadow wrote:On draft night, I must admit I thought Wacko was being a bit dramatic with his praise for Collins and disbelief that we didn't take him. I gotta hand it to him, though, he hit the nail right on the head with that one.

One thing we got spoiled with under Frank Vogel was him putting young guys in a position to succeed. PG broke out. Lance and Solomon Hill turned into rotation players under him. Turner looked like the future right from the very start. Nate just doesn't seem to have the same ability to do that, and I don't think it's just the quality of the players affecting that

I agree but a spade is not always a spade. Solo played in 28 games his rookie year and played 8 min/game in those. In 14-15 he started 78 but that was in place of the injured PG. The next year he was riding the pine until mid season (why we passed on his 4th year option) then he got hot and got into the rotation. Lance didn't play a ton in his first 2 years and then got a big role in year 3. But I do agree with your assessment. I was very much in the camp of keeping Frank. I thought Larry's thing of losing a locker room after a certain number of years was hogwash.

Pacers_Freak · Post #5 » by **Pacers_Freak** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:49 pm

Also in fairness if we are talking about developing then you would have to give Nate credit for Sumner.

Post #6 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:47 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:
boomershadow wrote:On draft night, I must admit I thought Wacko was being a bit dramatic with his praise for Collins and disbelief that we didn't take him. I gotta hand it to him, though, he hit the nail right on the head with that one.

One thing we got spoiled with under Frank Vogel was him putting young guys in a position to succeed. PG broke out. Lance and Solomon Hill turned into rotation players under him. Turner looked like the future right from the very start. Nate just doesn't seem to have the same ability to do that, and I don't think it's just the quality of the players affecting that

I agree but a spade is not always a spade. Solo played in 28 games his rookie year and played 8 min/game in those. In 14-15 he started 78 but that was in place of the injured PG. The next year he was riding the pine until mid season (why we passed on his 4th year option) then he got hot and got into the rotation. Lance didn't play a ton in his first 2 years and then got a big role in year 3. But I do agree with your assessment. I was very much in the camp of keeping Frank. I thought Larry's thing of losing a locker room after a certain number of years was hogwash.

Yup. Solo had not even a really good run, he had a solid, bench role caliber 6 games to end the regular season, and then 3 or 4 plus games of a 7 game postseason. Now, I'm all for we should've picked up that 4th year option at how cheap it was, since we have no idea what would've happened in the 4th year of cost control if he were in Indy, but yeah. He was still a major wildcard and not sure if we can call him developed.

As for the Leaf draft, yeah, I remember being not so sold on anyone, though Collins was definitely the favorite of a lot of posters here and a lot of mocks. Definitely looks like we missed huge there, even if Leaf becomes usable, much like the Hansbrough over any of the PG's available draft.

8305 · Post #7 » by **8305** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:37 pm

Goga Bitadzi looks slow and a step behind most everyone on the floor. I know its far too soon to draw a conclusion on him but, when I consider that along with Leaf who looks as lost as he did in year one and Holiday who looks like he's taken a step backward its depressing.

Post #8 » by **boomershadow** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:51 pm

I have to be frank here, also. I am not at all certain that the structure this Pacers team has in place right now would be the best environment for any rookie to develop. OG went to a team with title aspirations and played a well-defined, supporting role there. John Collins was given ample playing time and lots of room to develop his skills on a team that didn't have high expectations or pressure.

Now fans look at it and say, "wow, those guys are better players than the ones we got." They might very well be better, sure, but I don't think it's just that simple. They also got put into positions conducive to their success. Have Holiday or Leaf been put in positions to take advantage of their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses? I don't think so. Not one bit.

Pacersike · Post #9 » by **Pacersike** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 4:47 am

I'm a bit afraid we have to take it a step further.

If Larry Bird was still our GM.

There's being optimistic and being too optimistic. Calling Aaron a possible future Allstar and now he can barely come off the bench and our bench sucks. Bitadze is ready to play. Yes, we saw how ready he is: -16 in 9 minutes. Thank God Sabonis was so godly that night. Leaf, you mentioned him already. Sumner injured again. Not starting Sabonis in a lost season last season. McDermott, Evans...

It's a good thing KP made the right decisions for the most important players, Vic Domas trade, Brogdon(?) but it also has to be mentioned that the good vibes we were feeling in previous seasons, pretty much all came from 1 great move and not from multiple good moves. DC and Bobo were good moves, but we all knew they were going to be only placeholders and not future building blocks.

The moves we made for our future, how many of them or working or playing right now? After Turner, we traded our best draft pick: Caris Levert. We wouldn't even have drafted the guy. For a small market team, draft picks are hugely important, so we have to be demanding.

basketballwacko2 · Post #10 » by **basketballwacko2** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 8:48 am

boomershadow wrote:On draft night, I must admit I thought Wacko was being a bit dramatic with his praise for Collins and disbelief that we didn't take him. I gotta hand it to him, though, he hit the nail right on the head with that one.

One thing we got spoiled with under Frank Vogel was him putting young guys in a position to succeed. PG broke out. Lance and Solomon Hill turned into rotation players under him. Turner looked like the future right from the very start. Nate just doesn't seem to have the same ability to do that, and I don't think it's just the quality of the players affecting that

I was irate when we picked leaf. We could have gotten him in the 2nd round!

basketballwacko2 · Post #11 » by **basketballwacko2** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 9:04 am

boomershadow wrote:I have to be frank here, also. I am not at all certain that the structure this Pacers team has in place right now would be the best environment for any rookie to develop. OG went to a team with title aspirations and played a well-defined, supporting role there. John Collins was given ample playing time and lots of room to develop his skills on a team that didn't have high expectations or pressure.

Now fans look at it and say, "wow, those guys are better players than the ones we got." They might very well be better, sure, but I don't think it's just that simple. They also got put into positions conducive to their success. Have Holiday or Leaf been put in positions to take advantage of their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses? I don't think so. Not one bit.

In the case of leaf over Collins and OG it's just a matter of talent. I'm willing to give goga some time. Holiday has some good genes and who might we have taken it not them?

basketballwacko2 · Post #12 » by **basketballwacko2** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 9:11 am

Pacersike wrote:I'm a bit afraid we have to take it a step further.

If Larry Bird was still our GM.

There's being optimistic and being too optimistic. Calling Aaron a possible future Allstar and now he can barely come off the bench and our bench sucks. Bitadze is ready to play. Yes, we saw how ready he is: -16 in 9 minutes. Thank God Sabonis was so godly that night. Leaf, you mentioned him already. Sumner injured again. Not starting Sabonis in a lost season last season. McDermott, Evans...

It's a good thing KP made the right decisions for the most important players, Vic Domas trade, Brogdon(?) but it also has to be mentioned that the good vibes we were feeling in previous seasons, pretty much all came from 1 great move and not from multiple good moves. DC and Bobo were good moves, but we all knew they were going to be only placeholders and not future building blocks.

The moves we made for our future, how many of them or working or playing right now? After Turner, we traded our best draft pick: Caris Levert. We wouldn't even have drafted the guy. For a small market team, draft picks are hugely important, so we have to be demanding.

Look how many teams passed Dremond Green and Gobert and Giannis!

Pacersike · Post #13 » by **Pacersike** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 3:52 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:Look how many teams passed Dremond Green and Gobert and Giannis!

It better to only look at our team and what we have done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pacers_draft_history

But you make a good point.
KP isn't a great GM (responsible for the final draft decision), but neither was Larry Bird. My bad.
No shame in that, but when you refuse to tank at all and are a small market team, you better develop your late drafting skills
to one of the best in the league. Which isn't the case. We have to trade for good players drafted in the second round, but it would be much easier and more advanced if we had drafted Brogdon ourselves. That way we could have used our competence to draft another decent player with the picks we traded for Brogdon. Is it incompetence? No far from it, but also definitely no excellence.

Post #14 » by **pacers33granger** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 5:31 pm

Collins was definitely a miss, but his agent was/is the same as PG when all that drama was going on. I have to assume that influenced things a bit.

OG would have certainly been nicer than Leaf, but that one isn't as big of a deal to me. He has gotten quite overrated as a prospect imo. You can find 1-2 guys like him late every year. A decent prospect and much more of one than Leaf for sure, but I'm not losing sleep over that miss at all.

pacers70 · Post #15 » by **pacers70** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 7:17 pm

boomershadow wrote:I have to be frank here, also. I am not at all certain that the structure this Pacers team has in place right now would be the best environment for any rookie to develop. OG went to a team with title aspirations and played a well-defined, supporting role there. John Collins was given ample playing time and lots of room to develop his skills on a team that didn't have high expectations or pressure.

Now fans look at it and say, "wow, those guys are better players than the ones we got." They might very well be better, sure, but I don't think it's just that simple. They also got put into positions conducive to their success. Have Holiday or Leaf been put in positions to take advantage of their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses? I don't think so. Not one bit.

Frank is now in LA, we need to let that go. :lol:

I agree with premise of this post. If we would have drafted Collins or OG, there's a good chance that they would still be riding the bench. Nate has shown a reluctance in giving young players much game time.

Post #16 » by **pacers33granger** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 7:40 pm

Nate isn't a good developer, but I think some are remembering Frank with rose-colored glasses. He wasn't good in that respect either. We just had a better team with more vet presences.

And tbf to Nate he has gotten the best out of Vic, Domas, and Myles (Brogdon too so far) while getting Sumner to look like a legit NBA player. Bogie also took a major leap under Nate.

basketballwacko2 · Post #17 » by **basketballwacko2** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 10:50 pm

Pacersike wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:Look how many teams passed Dremond Green and Gobert and Giannis!

It better to only look at our team and what we have done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pacers_draft_history

But you make a good point.
KP isn't a great GM (responsible for the final draft decision), but neither was Larry Bird. My bad.
No shame in that, but when you refuse to tank at all and are a small market team, you better develop your late drafting skills
to one of the best in the league. Which isn't the case. We have to trade for good players drafted in the second round, but it would be much easier and more advanced if we had drafted Brogdon ourselves. That way we could have used our competence to draft another decent player with the picks we traded for Brogdon. Is it incompetence? No far from it, but also definitely no excellence.

I'm not saying that KP or Bird were bad GM's we've had a good team except for the year that George broke his leg and then Hibbert went from being a defensive juggernaut to a big stiff the Pacers have been a good team. There were questionable signings like Al Jefferson, and Monta Ellis. They weren't the Deng/Mozgov type blunders but didn't really help the team long term.

Draft picks have been a big one, case in point 2006 Shawne Williams? Rondo was on the board. 2009 Hansbrough? We still needed a point guard, Teague, Jrue, Lawson, and Collison all on the board at #13, as was Taj Gibson if we really needed a pf. Even 2008 when we took Brandon Rush when we needed a point guard, George Hill was on the board, we all remember what not taking him there lead to...

Scouting must get better, there were players we should have taken, draft night 2012 Dremond Green over Plumlee, I was at work in our break room watching it, I was so sure we were taking Green, But NOOOO! Then draft night 2013 Soloman Hill? Now I'll admit I'd never heard of Rudy Gobert, Like you said we could have had Brogdon in the draft but passed on him, so did everyone else so I'll let that slide.

As bent out of shape as I was on draft night in 2017, 2009 and 2012 I was just as apoplectic! We're not getting a guy like KAT or Embiid in the draft because we won't tank, so we have to get these guys like George Hill, Green, Collins, and Rudy when the opportunity is there. The Bucks took GA and that one pick alone makes them a contender.

basketballwacko2 · Post #18 » by **basketballwacko2** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 10:56 pm

pacers70 wrote:
boomershadow wrote:I have to be frank here, also. I am not at all certain that the structure this Pacers team has in place right now would be the best environment for any rookie to develop. OG went to a team with title aspirations and played a well-defined, supporting role there. John Collins was given ample playing time and lots of room to develop his skills on a team that didn't have high expectations or pressure.

Now fans look at it and say, "wow, those guys are better players than the ones we got." They might very well be better, sure, but I don't think it's just that simple. They also got put into positions conducive to their success. Have Holiday or Leaf been put in positions to take advantage of their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses? I don't think so. Not one bit.

Frank is now in LA, we need to let that go.

I agree with premise of this post. If we would have drafted Collins or OG, there's a good chance that they would still be riding the bench. Nate has shown a reluctance in giving young players much game time.

I don't think so talent gets you playing time. There is a reason that Leaf is getting DNP's and a guy like Justin Holiday is getting minutes! We needed a back up to Thad in 2017, that was before the PG deal that brought us Dom and Vic. Leaf just is not strong enough or athletic enough to play at this level. But since we picked his option up it looks like he's getting a roster spot next year, or he could be filler is a deal at some point.

basketballwacko2 · Post #19 » by **basketballwacko2** » Fri Nov 1, 2019 10:58 pm

pacers33granger wrote:Nate isn't a good developer, but I think some are remembering Frank with rose-colored glasses. He wasn't good in that respect either. We just had a better team with more vet presences.

And tbf to Nate he has gotten the best out of Vic, Domas, and Myles (Brogdon too so far) while getting Sumner to look like a legit NBA player. Bogie also took a major leap under Nate.

Those guys can all play at this level, Sumner at least looks like an NBA player TJ Leaf looks like a tall guy who might be better at bagging groceries at Kroger than playing NBA basketball.

Post #20 » by **pacers33granger** » Sat Nov 2, 2019 12:40 am

basketballwacko2 wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:Nate isn't a good developer, but I think some are remembering Frank with rose-colored glasses. He wasn't good in that respect either. We just had a better team with more vet presences.

And tbf to Nate he has gotten the best out of Vic, Domas, and Myles (Brogdon too so far) while getting Sumner to look like a legit NBA player. Bogie also took a major leap under Nate.

Those guys can all play at this level, Sumner at least looks like an NBA player TJ Leaf looks like a tall guy who might be better at bagging groceries at Kroger than playing NBA basketball.

Given his hands I'm not sure I would trust him with my groceries.