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Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?"

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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#41 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:43 pm

Wizop wrote:trade board thread about Teague to Atlanta quotes a tweet saying MN had asked about AHoliday and we declined. of course, with us playing them twice this week, the subject could come up again.


If we could net Covington, I'd move him, depending on what the rest of the price is, of course.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#42 » by Wizop » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:42 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:trade board thread about Teague to Atlanta quotes a tweet saying MN had asked about AHoliday and we declined. of course, with us playing them twice this week, the subject could come up again.


If we could net Covington, I'd move him, depending on what the rest of the price is, of course.


both Holidays?
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#43 » by Topofthekey » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:42 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Pacersike wrote:Can we get A Gordon for his dunks alone? Damn...

I keep thinking that if AG is about the same size as PG, and Pacers turned PG into an elite defender, couldn't the Pacers do the same with AG


Paul George already had the talent, skills, and aptitude to be an all world defender. Aaron Gordon isn't starting from the same place.

Well we don't need him to be an all world defender, although that would be nice

We just need him to defend well enough to slow down the elite forwards of the league, and to chip in 12-14ppg on offense

I think he's capable of the task, though I could be wrong

To be clear, it's not that I think he's the perfect fit for the team, it's just that considering what the team needs, he's the closest thing that fits bill and, crucially, might be available for a reasonable price

Domas and Myles are only playing together for about 19 minutes per game anyway, so if you stagger the minutes right, AG will spend the majority of his time playing PF next to Domas or Myles
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#44 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:04 am

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:I keep thinking that if AG is about the same size as PG, and Pacers turned PG into an elite defender, couldn't the Pacers do the same with AG


Paul George already had the talent, skills, and aptitude to be an all world defender. Aaron Gordon isn't starting from the same place.

Well we don't need him to be an all world defender, although that would be nice

We just need him to defend well enough to slow down the elite forwards of the league, and to chip in 12-14ppg on offense

I think he's capable of the task, though I could be wrong

To be clear, it's not that I think he's the perfect fit for the team, it's just that considering what the team needs, he's the closest thing that fits bill and, crucially, might be available for a reasonable price

Domas and Myles are only playing together for about 19 minutes per game anyway, so if you stagger the minutes right, AG will spend the majority of his time playing PF next to Domas or Myles


So you recognize he’s be coming off the bench and not starting? And not be a SF at all?

The other question is, do you think he’s willing to buy into life as a just D PF off the bench? Will he be willing to sacrifice his offensive game for the sake of the team? And on top of that, will he be willing to learn, train, and develop as at least a decent defender? At this point, the cost of acquiring a bench, no offense, hopefully good defender in your mind is two key pieces in Warren and Lamb. That’s pretty expensive for a particular piece that may not even want to fill that role, or even have the talent, aptitude, or skills to even fill it if he WAS willing to sacrifice his game.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#45 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:05 am

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:trade board thread about Teague to Atlanta quotes a tweet saying MN had asked about AHoliday and we declined. of course, with us playing them twice this week, the subject could come up again.


If we could net Covington, I'd move him, depending on what the rest of the price is, of course.


both Holidays?


I doubt they’d value Justin in the way he should be. They’d probably count him as filler and still want a first or more.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#46 » by Pacersike » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:44 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
If we could net Covington, I'd move him, depending on what the rest of the price is, of course.


both Holidays?


I doubt they’d value Justin in the way he should be. They’d probably count him as filler and still want a first or more.

If you don't include Justin, it's a bit of a dick move, splitting up 2 brothers.

If you include Justin, it's also a bit of a dick move, shipping a quality veteran towards a team with zero playoffs hopes.

In this case, I think it would be better to wait for another good fit PF, because in this years playoffs Oladipo will not be great enough.

SG Aaron also fits great next to taller ballhandlers as Dipo and Brogdon. It's tempting, but I would not trade him for Covington, no sir.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#47 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:11 pm

Covington’s signed for 2 more years, so he’d be an addition not just for this year, but the future as well. I’ve come around on Holiday. I just think that everything some might think of Aaron Gordon, Covington is a better version of that, and cheaper.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#48 » by basketballwacko2 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:40 pm

I think Aaron Gordon is over paid.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#49 » by Topofthekey » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:11 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Paul George already had the talent, skills, and aptitude to be an all world defender. Aaron Gordon isn't starting from the same place.

Well we don't need him to be an all world defender, although that would be nice

We just need him to defend well enough to slow down the elite forwards of the league, and to chip in 12-14ppg on offense

I think he's capable of the task, though I could be wrong

To be clear, it's not that I think he's the perfect fit for the team, it's just that considering what the team needs, he's the closest thing that fits bill and, crucially, might be available for a reasonable price

Domas and Myles are only playing together for about 19 minutes per game anyway, so if you stagger the minutes right, AG will spend the majority of his time playing PF next to Domas or Myles


So you recognize he’s be coming off the bench and not starting? And not be a SF at all?

The other question is, do you think he’s willing to buy into life as a just D PF off the bench? Will he be willing to sacrifice his offensive game for the sake of the team? And on top of that, will he be willing to learn, train, and develop as at least a decent defender? At this point, the cost of acquiring a bench, no offense, hopefully good defender in your mind is two key pieces in Warren and Lamb. That’s pretty expensive for a particular piece that may not even want to fill that role, or even have the talent, aptitude, or skills to even fill it if he WAS willing to sacrifice his game.

It depends on who do we trade for him, but I still see potential in him being the starting SF

Assuming we're able to trade Doug and Lamb for AG (doubt Magic would go for it, but for the sake of discussion why not), I'd start him at SF and move Warren to be the scorer off the bench:

Myles
Domas
AG
Vic
Brogdon

Second unit would be:

Myles/Domas
AG
Warren
Aaron
TJM

As someone pointed out, Nate favors a 9 man rotation, so this looks good to me?

You have size and athleticism at every position, a good mix of inside scoring (Domas, AG), mid-range scoring (Vic, Warren) and outside shooting (Myles, Brogdon, Aaron)

And in the event both Myles and Domas need to sit, we either go with AG as small ball 5 and Justin as small ball 4, or Goga goes in:

AG/Goga
Justin/AG
Warren
Aaron
TJM

Those lineups look more balanced to me, compared to how the team is constantly using Justin as small ball 4 now

As for his willingness to sacrifice his offensive game, and his willingness to train and develop as a defender, well, who knows :dontknow:

Like I said, this is just me considering the possibilities - I'm just connecting the dots here, since 1) the cost of acquiring AG right now is probably at its lowest, and 2) Pacers have a solid track record of turning even defensive liabilities like Bogie and Warren into nett positive players on defense
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#50 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:56 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Well we don't need him to be an all world defender, although that would be nice

We just need him to defend well enough to slow down the elite forwards of the league, and to chip in 12-14ppg on offense

I think he's capable of the task, though I could be wrong

To be clear, it's not that I think he's the perfect fit for the team, it's just that considering what the team needs, he's the closest thing that fits bill and, crucially, might be available for a reasonable price

Domas and Myles are only playing together for about 19 minutes per game anyway, so if you stagger the minutes right, AG will spend the majority of his time playing PF next to Domas or Myles


So you recognize he’s be coming off the bench and not starting? And not be a SF at all?

The other question is, do you think he’s willing to buy into life as a just D PF off the bench? Will he be willing to sacrifice his offensive game for the sake of the team? And on top of that, will he be willing to learn, train, and develop as at least a decent defender? At this point, the cost of acquiring a bench, no offense, hopefully good defender in your mind is two key pieces in Warren and Lamb. That’s pretty expensive for a particular piece that may not even want to fill that role, or even have the talent, aptitude, or skills to even fill it if he WAS willing to sacrifice his game.

It depends on who do we trade for him, but I still see potential in him being the starting SF

Assuming we're able to trade Doug and Lamb for AG (doubt Magic would go for it, but for the sake of discussion why not), I'd start him at SF and move Warren to be the scorer off the bench:

Myles
Domas
AG
Vic
Brogdon

Second unit would be:

Myles/Domas
AG
Warren
Aaron
TJM

As someone pointed out, Nate favors a 9 man rotation, so this looks good to me?

You have size and athleticism at every position, a good mix of inside scoring (Domas, AG), mid-range scoring (Vic, Warren) and outside shooting (Myles, Brogdon, Aaron)

And in the event both Myles and Domas need to sit, we either go with AG as small ball 5 and Justin as small ball 4, or Goga goes in:

AG/Goga
Justin/AG
Warren
Aaron
TJM

Those lineups look more balanced to me, compared to how the team is constantly using Justin as small ball 4 now

As for his willingness to sacrifice his offensive game, and his willingness to train and develop as a defender, well, who knows :dontknow:

Like I said, this is just me considering the possibilities - I'm just connecting the dots here, since 1) the cost of acquiring AG right now is probably at its lowest, and 2) Pacers have a solid track record of turning even defensive liabilities like Bogie and Warren into nett positive players on defense


That's fair. Gordon is a pretty low value player (he's statistically one of the worst offensive forwards over the last decade), and he's not a terribly good defender. He's a terrible shooter (career 45/32/71 splits, and that's actually far better than he's shooting this year at 43/29/70 which looks better since they all are rounded up :lol: ). His offense is essentially solely dunks. He has 439 career dunks, and yet his shooting percentage inside of 3' over his career is only 68%, which isn't great. He's also below 37% shooting from any other length on the court (from 3'-10' hes a 32.5% shooter, yikes).

I can see that most people around the league would value him as a negative player on an excessive contract, but Orlando likely doesn't and would want to be paid. I get where your head is at, but maybe focus on guys that could actually fill the role you hope for, like Covington? Would it be worth sending Aaron and another 1st out? I don't know... :dontknow: . Or find that guy elsewhere. I love the theory, but hate the specific in this case of trying to turn a historically terrible offensive player, and ok at best defender into a kind of "great flexible defender with range", when he's shown nothing of any of the sorts. He's a dunker. He's fun to watch in short doses. That's about it, thus far, in his career, unfortunately.

Edit: If we disregard dunks from his shooting stats (mostly unfair, I know, but better lets you see how he shoots elsewhere), he's a career 37.97% shooter. :o
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#51 » by Wizop » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:58 pm

I simply do not understand the fascination for Gordon particularly given his contract and projecting him as a SF. What's wrong with the way Warren has been playing? Gordon literally costs twice as much. now I can understand Covington as a backup 4 even though he's not much bigger than Justin. I can understand shopping Lamb so AHol will continue to get the backup 2 minutes after Vic returns. I can understand moving Leaf for a bag of wet noodles - Vonleh?

now I get that no one expected Warren and JHol to be this good. but they are. I could have gone along with the Gordon crowd before our wings exceeded expectations, but they have so let's move on. the need is backup 4, not a starting 3.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#52 » by Topofthekey » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:43 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:That's fair. Gordon is a pretty low value player (he's statistically one of the worst offensive forwards over the last decade), and he's not a terribly good defender. He's a terrible shooter (career 45/32/71 splits, and that's actually far better than he's shooting this year at 43/29/70 which looks better since they all are rounded up :lol: ). His offense is essentially solely dunks. He has 439 career dunks, and yet his shooting percentage inside of 3' over his career is only 68%, which isn't great. He's also below 37% shooting from any other length on the court (from 3'-10' hes a 32.5% shooter, yikes).

I can see that most people around the league would value him as a negative player on an excessive contract, but Orlando likely doesn't and would want to be paid. I get where your head is at, but maybe focus on guys that could actually fill the role you hope for, like Covington? Would it be worth sending Aaron and another 1st out? I don't know... :dontknow: . Or find that guy elsewhere. I love the theory, but hate the specific in this case of trying to turn a historically terrible offensive player, and ok at best defender into a kind of "great flexible defender with range", when he's shown nothing of any of the sorts. He's a dunker. He's fun to watch in short doses. That's about it, thus far, in his career, unfortunately.

Edit: If we disregard dunks from his shooting stats (mostly unfair, I know, but better lets you see how he shoots elsewhere), he's a career 37.97% shooter. :o

Oh you don't have sell me about Covington, I think he's a great fit for the team, and I thought Pacers should have tried to trade for him, back when he was still with the 76ers

The problem with Covington now though, is that his stock is more or less at an all time high

He's a role player, an elite role player, but still a role player nevertheless, but Timberwolves value him very highly, and will unlikely be willing to let him go unless it's for a premium price, and that's something I am unwilling to pay - which is why I've more or less given up on Pacers acquiring him ever since he landed on the Wolves

If they are willing to take the same package I would ideally offer for AG (Doug + Lamb), I'd take Covington over AG 11 out of 10 times

But as I said it's very unlikely, and if the choice is between Doug + Lamb for AG or Aaron + something for Covington, I might roll the dice with AG instead, because I'd rather keep Aaron over Doug or Lamb

(not saying Magic would do Doug + Lamb for AG, just saying for sake of discussion)
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#53 » by Topofthekey » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:48 pm

Wizop wrote:I simply do not understand the fascination for Gordon particularly given his contract and projecting him as a SF. What's wrong with the way Warren has been playing? Gordon literally costs twice as much. now I can understand Covington as a backup 4 even though he's not much bigger than Justin. I can understand shopping Lamb so AHol will continue to get the backup 2 minutes after Vic returns. I can understand moving Leaf for a bag of wet noodles - Vonleh?

now I get that no one expected Warren and JHol to be this good. but they are. I could have gone along with the Gordon crowd before our wings exceeded expectations, but they have so let's move on. the need is backup 4, not a starting 3.

Not so much fascinated with AG, more like thinking the team needs someone who can defend the elite forwards of the conference

There aren't many options, especially options that are affordable (in terms of trading), hence the thought of getting creative with acquiring and developing AG into that player

And if we can obtain AG for an offer centered around Doug + Lamb, that's like killing two birds with one stone, as it'll open up minutes for Aaron as you said
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#54 » by Wizop » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:54 pm

Topofthekey wrote:(not saying Magic would do Doug + Lamb for AG, just saying for sake of discussion)


trade machine says it takes Doug + Lamb for AG but Lamb by himself is enough for Covington.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#55 » by Wizop » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:02 pm

Topofthekey wrote:Not so much fascinated with AG, more like thinking the team needs someone who can defend the elite forwards of the conference


I know Warren came here with no defensive reputation, but do you really still think AG is twice the defender Warren is? I do not. besides we need defense at the 4, not the 3. unless perhaps you are wanting someone to defend LeBron or Giannis or Durant. that's a very short list and I don't have AG on it.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#56 » by Pacersike » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:16 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:Covington’s signed for 2 more years, so he’d be an addition not just for this year, but the future as well. I’ve come around on Holiday. I just think that everything some might think of Aaron Gordon, Covington is a better version of that, and cheaper.

Aaron can still improve a lot, Robert can not. How many times have the Pacers drafted a player after #20 in the last 2 decades that could/would stick around for some years? Literally zero by my count. Now that we finally have one with enough potential, I like to keep him unless we can get a real difference maker. Covington is just a really good roleplayer.

We have plenty of time till next years playoffs to only pull the trigger on a trade for a smallball 4 when the cost isn't this high or when we will finally know how efficient the Sabonis-Turner combo will be when finishing close playoffs games together. As the regular season indicates, that combo remains to have certain weaknesses that forces us to have only 1 of them on the court in crunch time.

We keep hearing about it, because all kinds of viewers from all kinds of parties see the combo weaknesses. And personally, I rather trade one day for a PF that's even better than Covington, to replace Myles Turner. For the future and for a better death lineup to finish games. When talking about fits, Aaron does fit really well next to Brogdon and Oladipo. Let us treasure the good fits on our team, because it matters, fit.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#57 » by 8305 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:56 pm

I think the Bulls would trade Thad Young for Jeremy Lamb in a heart beat. Backup 4 issue solved. Still too many quality wings and guards for the minutes we have but, problems could be worse.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#58 » by Tom White » Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:28 pm

8305 wrote:I think the Bulls would trade Thad Young for Jeremy Lamb in a heart beat. Backup 4 issue solved. Still too many quality wings and guards for the minutes we have but, problems could be worse.


Why would you want to take a step backwards? The Pacers had their reasons for not re-signing Young and I doubt they have changed their minds this quickly.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#59 » by Wizop » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:26 pm

Tom White wrote:
8305 wrote:I think the Bulls would trade Thad Young for Jeremy Lamb in a heart beat. Backup 4 issue solved. Still too many quality wings and guards for the minutes we have but, problems could be worse.


Why would you want to take a step backwards? The Pacers had their reasons for not re-signing Young and I doubt they have changed their minds this quickly.


I agree completely. we let Thad walk not because we didn't like his game or even because he wanted too much money. we let him go because we didn't want to give him a contract that had as many years in it as the contract Chicago offered. that's still true.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#60 » by boomershadow » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:31 pm

I'll say this. It always seemed like a weird signing for Chicago.

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