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Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?"

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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#61 » by Tom White » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:33 am

boomershadow wrote:I'll say this. It always seemed like a weird signing for Chicago.


Maybe they thought the team needed a veteran "mentor" along with the talents he does have?
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#62 » by 8305 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:12 pm

Wizop wrote:
Tom White wrote:
8305 wrote:I think the Bulls would trade Thad Young for Jeremy Lamb in a heart beat. Backup 4 issue solved. Still too many quality wings and guards for the minutes we have but, problems could be worse.


Why would you want to take a step backwards? The Pacers had their reasons for not re-signing Young and I doubt they have changed their minds this quickly.


I agree completely. we let Thad walk not because we didn't like his game or even because he wanted too much money. we let him go because we didn't want to give him a contract that had as many years in it as the contract Chicago offered. that's still true.


A number of things have happened since we passed on Thad.
TJ Leaf proved he isn't a viable backup at the 4.
We've found that you can't play big all the time too.
J Holiday, A Holiday, McDermott, McConnell and Sumner have all on some level exceeded expectations.
Which one of those guys minutes get cut when Vic comes back?
I get that's a lot of money to spend on a situational rotation guy. But, does anyone believe Lamb is head and shoulders better than any of the 4 guys we bring off the bench now? The money is committed one way or another. Young brings something we simply don't have now. Lamb is redundant.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#63 » by Wizop » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:15 pm

8305 wrote:We've found that you can't play big all the time too.


have we or have we found we don't have a second big who can play the four?

I also don't agree that Lamb is redundant but the rotation with Vic is yet to be worked out so you could be proven right. I suppose though that if a backup 4 fell out of the sky pushing JHoliday to 3, then Lamb and McBuckets would be in competition for backup 2, and AHoliday and TJMcC would be in competition for backup 1. my money is on TJMcC at 1 and I expect Vic to start on a pitch count leaving minutes for both JHoliday and McBuckets in the beginning even with a new 4.

oh, perhaps Sampson and Alize could emerge but we can cross that bridge later.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#64 » by boomershadow » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:53 pm

Tom White wrote:
boomershadow wrote:I'll say this. It always seemed like a weird signing for Chicago.


Maybe they thought the team needed a veteran "mentor" along with the talents he does have?


A Thad-type player would make a lot of sense to me if they were a young team ready to step up and be a winning team. Or if they were really instilling a culture to let their young players develop who need guidance.

And maybe they're trying to be both of those things, but I don't really see their plan. Their young pieces arent "that" great, their roster construction is wonky. And the young guys seem to hate their coach more than they want to play for him. If anything, it sucks for Thad to be his age and stuck there for another couple years.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#65 » by 8305 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:56 pm

Wizop wrote:
8305 wrote:We've found that you can't play big all the time too.


have we or have we found we don't have a second big who can play the four?

I also don't agree that Lamb is redundant but the rotation with Vic is yet to be worked out so you could be proven right. I suppose though that if a backup 4 fell out of the sky pushing JHoliday to 3, then Lamb and McBuckets would be in competition for backup 2, and AHoliday and TJMcC would be in competition for backup 1. my money is on TJMcC at 1 and I expect Vic to start on a pitch count leaving minutes for both JHoliday and McBuckets in the beginning even with a new 4.

oh, perhaps Sampson and Alize could emerge but we can cross that bridge later.


Guys with traditional 4 size and new age 4 skill are rare and as a result pretty much untouchable. Thad has shown he can guard those types.

When Vic returns seems to me J Holiday, McDermott, and McConnell have earned retention in the rotation based on their consistent excellent play. That means Lamb moves to the 2 and A Holiday is out. The question this solution begs is how much do you like Aaron?
A strong case can be made that he has more upside than any of the other bench guys. Are we willing to shut him down?

If we did make the trade i suggested (Thad for Lamb) I see Thad as a situational rotation guy. There will be times when J Holiday, McDermott or Warren are better options than Thad and Thad is a very expensive situational sub. That takes you back to Sampson and Alize. If we are committed to retaining the salary slot Lamb represents I like Thad better. I'd give you Lamb might be easier to move for draft considerations if it came to that.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#66 » by Wizop » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:51 pm

Thad made a business decision. I can't blame him for not throwing away a winning lottery ticket - by which I mean a year of his contract pays like a jackpot. But we also made a decision not to sign him for that many years. I don't think either side was wrong. Trading for him isn't something I'd do unless perhaps you think it'd make us better than the Bucks this year.

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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#67 » by 8305 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:44 pm

No argument on how we got to where we are now(Thad in Chicago)

What if Vic comes back stronger than everyone expects? We could have traded guys in 2018 for future assets, could have played the young guys last year after Vic went down. But we won’t make moves this year to make ourselves more competitive in a playoff run?
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#68 » by Tom White » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:14 pm

8305 wrote:No argument on how we got to where we are now(Thad in Chicago)

What if Vic comes back stronger than everyone expects? We could have traded guys in 2018 for future assets, could have played the young guys last year after Vic went down. But we won’t make moves this year to make ourselves more competitive in a playoff run?


You really think Thad would make us more competitive this year? I don't see it. I see this as a more talented and well rounded team than last year. Thad was not a good ball handler, was a so-so shooter, with about average rebounding and frankly I think he is being over-rated on defense. Don't get me wrong, his defense was pretty good, but he is no all-world defender as some seem to believe. I'll take this line-up all day long over making some of the trades I've seen proposed on here.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#69 » by Wizop » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:37 pm

Tom White wrote:
8305 wrote:No argument on how we got to where we are now(Thad in Chicago)

What if Vic comes back stronger than everyone expects? We could have traded guys in 2018 for future assets, could have played the young guys last year after Vic went down. But we won’t make moves this year to make ourselves more competitive in a playoff run?


You really think Thad would make us more competitive this year? I don't see it. I see this as a more talented and well rounded team than last year. Thad was not a good ball handler, was a so-so shooter, with about average rebounding and frankly I think he is being over-rated on defense. Don't get me wrong, his defense was pretty good, but he is no all-world defender as some seem to believe. I'll take this line-up all day long over making some of the trades I've seen proposed on here.
I don't want to give up anyone making enough money to match Thad in a trade. Now if Chicago were to buy him out and he were willing to be a backup 4, sure. I think a late season pickup ala Matthews last year, is more likely than a trade.

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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#70 » by 8305 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:30 am

Tom White wrote:
8305 wrote:No argument on how we got to where we are now(Thad in Chicago)

What if Vic comes back stronger than everyone expects? We could have traded guys in 2018 for future assets, could have played the young guys last year after Vic went down. But we won’t make moves this year to make ourselves more competitive in a playoff run?


You really think Thad would make us more competitive this year? I don't see it. I see this as a more talented and well rounded team than last year. Thad was not a good ball handler, was a so-so shooter, with about average rebounding and frankly I think he is being over-rated on defense. Don't get me wrong, his defense was pretty good, but he is no all-world defender as some seem to believe. I'll take this line-up all day long over making some of the trades I've seen proposed on here.


In the Eastern Conference Playoffs you are looking at Giannis, Siakum, Adabayou. If we are going anywhere we see two of those guys. Do you like Sabonis, Turner or J Holiday against those guys? Does Thad make us more competitive generally? Probably not. But in a seven game series against the Bucks, Raptors or Heat. Yeah, I think Thad could be a meaningful guy.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#71 » by 8305 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:34 am

Wizop wrote:
Tom White wrote:
8305 wrote:No argument on how we got to where we are now(Thad in Chicago)

What if Vic comes back stronger than everyone expects? We could have traded guys in 2018 for future assets, could have played the young guys last year after Vic went down. But we won’t make moves this year to make ourselves more competitive in a playoff run?


You really think Thad would make us more competitive this year? I don't see it. I see this as a more talented and well rounded team than last year. Thad was not a good ball handler, was a so-so shooter, with about average rebounding and frankly I think he is being over-rated on defense. Don't get me wrong, his defense was pretty good, but he is no all-world defender as some seem to believe. I'll take this line-up all day long over making some of the trades I've seen proposed on here.
I don't want to give up anyone making enough money to match Thad in a trade. Now if Chicago were to buy him out and he were willing to be a backup 4, sure. I think a late season pickup ala Matthews last year, is more likely than a trade.

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Probably just have to agree to disagree here. I think Jeremy Lamb is a nice player but I don't think he gives us anything that can't be gotten from one of the Holidays or McDermott. Heck if you were needing lock down defense Sumner is a better option.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#72 » by Wizop » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:56 pm

8305 wrote:
Probably just have to agree to disagree here. I think Jeremy Lamb is a nice player but I don't think he gives us anything that can't be gotten from one of the Holidays or McDermott. Heck if you were needing lock down defense Sumner is a better option.


I would certainly be willing to trade Lamb ahead of anyone else in the regular rotation but I'm not ready to shop him. Next summer is different. But if there is a 27 year old Thad out there ...

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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#73 » by boomershadow » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:47 pm

I think we just carry on with our defensive system and our current players and live with the results, even if we dont have a Giannis-stopper. Stopping Giannis isnt that likely anyways.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#74 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:50 pm

Thad’s defense would help, for sure, in a slowed down, grind it out series. However, his offense is simply so terrible and his range so non existent, that you may not be able to play him with Dom, and you may not be able to finish games with him. At that point, is he providing enough to be worth a 3 year deal we weren’t willing to give him just this past summer? Can we score offensively while essentially playing 4 on 5? There’s a lot to like, but there’s worries there too.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#75 » by Wizop » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:37 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Thad’s defense would help, for sure, in a slowed down, grind it out series. However, his offense is simply so terrible ...


he has scored more in Chicago but that's probably bad team syndrome.

Is Iggy enough of a 4 defensively to be worth say Lamb and Leaf?

Leaf for Vonleh?

trying to think of defensive 4's at either the 2mm spot to match Leaf or 10mm to match Lamb (assuming Vic is Vic).
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#76 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:42 pm

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Thad’s defense would help, for sure, in a slowed down, grind it out series. However, his offense is simply so terrible ...


he has scored more in Chicago but that's probably bad team syndrome.

Is Iggy enough of a 4 defensively to be worth say Lamb and Leaf?

Leaf for Vonleh?

trying to think of defensive 4's at either the 2mm spot to match Leaf or 10mm to match Lamb (assuming Vic is Vic).


He’s scored less per game and per 36 minutes played. He’s shooting 42/34/60 this year, well down for his Indy stats of 51/35/60.

Iggys a wing defender for sure. Minnesota also has two big money centers in KAT and Dieng. They signed Vonleh hoping he’d be a 4 for them, and he hasn’t been good at that. He’s realistically a 5 as well. It is really hard to find a 4/3 defender type guy, let alone one that’s available.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#77 » by Topofthekey » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:43 pm

I think Lauri Markkanen is another player that the team should look at right now

Sure he's having a bad season and is starting to look like a bust, but that's also why the potential price of trading for him is likely at its lowest

Maybe he can turn into yet another one of the Pacers' reclamation project special

He should be a good stretch 4 to pair with either Domas or Myles, meaning he can substitute for either one of them when they need to rest
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#78 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:56 pm

Topofthekey wrote:I think Lauri Markkanen is another player that the team should look at right now

Sure he's having a bad season and is starting to look like a bust, but that's also why the potential price of trading for him is likely at its lowest

Maybe he can turn into yet another one of the Pacers' reclamation project special

He should be a good stretch 4 to pair with either Domas or Myles, meaning he can substitute for either one of them when they need to rest


I agree it looks like he should be viewed as devalued a bit, and that he's likely a 7' who will shoot about 36% from 3 and rebound decently well, but I think Chicago will likely still try and value him as a young guy who was recently drafted top 10 and has put in really good scoring numbers. Ultimately, it's starting to look like Lauri might turn out to be a taller, better "counting numbers" type of Doug McDermott, albeit a lesser shooter. :dontknow: Maybe a better rebounding Davis Bertans?
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#79 » by Topofthekey » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:36 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:I think Lauri Markkanen is another player that the team should look at right now

Sure he's having a bad season and is starting to look like a bust, but that's also why the potential price of trading for him is likely at its lowest

Maybe he can turn into yet another one of the Pacers' reclamation project special

He should be a good stretch 4 to pair with either Domas or Myles, meaning he can substitute for either one of them when they need to rest


I agree it looks like he should be viewed as devalued a bit, and that he's likely a 7' who will shoot about 36% from 3 and rebound decently well, but I think Chicago will likely still try and value him as a young guy who was recently drafted top 10 and has put in really good scoring numbers. Ultimately, it's starting to look like Lauri might turn out to be a taller, better "counting numbers" type of Doug McDermott, albeit a lesser shooter. :dontknow: Maybe a better rebounding Davis Bertans?

True, the price likely isn't going to be cheap, since it's too early for the Bulls to just give up on him

But it probably won't be prohibitive either, compared to one or two seasons ago

I have no idea what direction the Bulls are trying to go though, so I don't know what they would consider as fair price for him

If we can somehow consolidate Lamb + Doug + Justin + Leaf and maybe a few 2nds for him, our second unit would be instantly a lot more formidable

Goga, Markkanen, Aaron, TJM

Bulls probably see our pieces as just role players though, and they'd probably want a potential star in return, so it's unlikely they'd say yes

Perhaps some kind of 3 way, where we cash in on Lamb and Doug by trading them to teams that value them highly, and then flipping whatever asset we got from them for Markkanen

Or perhaps we should think out of the box, and cash in on Warren instead, and promote Doug to be our starting SF
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#80 » by Tom White » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:58 pm

Topofthekey wrote:If we can somehow consolidate Lamb + Doug + Justin + Leaf and maybe a few 2nds for him, our second unit would be instantly a lot more formidable



I don't intend to insult you, I really don't, so please take this with that in mind. That being said, I can't believe you would be willing to part with four players, three of which are important to this team, for a guy having a bit of a down season which may wind up being more the norm for him than not. What you propose would instantly destroy our depth and the chemistry this team is developing. I honestly don't know what to say about some of these trade proposals.

Maybe the old saying is true that the grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence.

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